lol. Bush is now threatening to invade Pakistan

[Hacp]

You need to keep all your options open.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Do you think that if in fact OBL&Co are in Pakistan, that they are "allowing" the Pakistani government to stay in control, even barely, for leverage, against the US? Obviously, if Musharraf were overthrown, that could give the US more reason to invade, or more likely, carry out some kind of military operations inside Pakistan.

Not at all. The influence if al-Qaeda and fundamentalists in Pakistan is widely overstated.

In the mountainous north, their partnership with tribal groups has remained the same since the days of fighting Soviets in Afghanistan. There is a reason the US and Pakistan have had little success there...simply put, nobody wants to go there. It's could be one of the most dangerous regions in the world, not only for the terrain, but also because it's a modern-day "wild west". Guns are plentiful, government laws are unenforceable, and tribal groups retain all the power. It's been like that for centuries, however, and that is why nobody in Pakistan is alarmed.

Any attempts to extend their influence outside this region has been met with a lot of resistance by Pakistanis. Fundamentalist schools and mosques thrive in isolated areas, but are themselves isolated in the population centers. The Red Mosque incident is just one example, and a majority of Pakistanis supported Musharraf's decision to shut it down.

Musharraf is doing a great juggling act at the moment. He wisely pandered to Bush during the "with us or against us" moment after 9/11, but smartly told US troops to stay out of his country (which protected him politically after the Iraq debacle unfolded).

The tribes in Pakistan aren't the enemy, however. They have no ambitions of terrorism or world-domination; they just want to keep their way of life as it has been for hundreds of years.

If we want success, we need to learn from the Soviets mistakes and try surgically removing al-Qaeda with special-ops (akin to removing a malignant tumor from healthy tissue). History and Iraq has shown that brute force will simply not work.

 

[Wheezer]

Carpet bomb...whomever does not die in the explosions...will be buried.

no troops needed.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Wheezer
Carpet bomb...whomever does not die in the explosions...will be buried.

no troops needed.

It worked so well in the past. :laugh:

The population of Afghanistan's second largest city, Kandahar, had been reduced from 200,000 before the war to no more than 25,000 inhabitants, following months-long campaign carpet bombing and bulldozing by the Soviets in 1987.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: bamacre
Do you think that if in fact OBL&Co are in Pakistan, that they are "allowing" the Pakistani government to stay in control, even barely, for leverage, against the US? Obviously, if Musharraf were overthrown, that could give the US more reason to invade, or more likely, carry out some kind of military operations inside Pakistan.

Not at all. The influence if al-Qaeda and fundamentalists in Pakistan is widely overstated.

In the mountainous north, their partnership with tribal groups has remained the same since the days of fighting Soviets in Afghanistan. There is a reason the US and Pakistan have had little success there...simply put, nobody wants to go there. It's could be one of the most dangerous regions in the world, not only for the terrain, but also because it's a modern-day "wild west". Guns are plentiful, government laws are unenforceable, and tribal groups retain all the power. It's been like that for centuries, however, and that is why nobody in Pakistan is alarmed.

Any attempts to extend their influence outside this region has been met with a lot of resistance by Pakistanis. Fundamentalist schools and mosques thrive in isolated areas, but are themselves isolated in the population centers. The Red Mosque incident is just one example, and a majority of Pakistanis supported Musharraf's decision to shut it down.

Musharraf is doing a great juggling act at the moment. He wisely pandered to Bush during the "with us or against us" moment after 9/11, but smartly told US troops to stay out of his country (which protected him politically after the Iraq debacle unfolded).

The tribes in Pakistan aren't the enemy, however. They have no ambitions of terrorism or world-domination; they just want to keep their way of life as it has been for hundreds of years.

If we want success, we need to learn from the Soviets mistakes and try surgically removing al-Qaeda with special-ops (akin to removing a malignant tumor from healthy tissue). History and Iraq has shown that brute force will simply not work.

Most of this makes a lot of sense, thanks.

But if what you say is true, "the influence of al-Qaeda and fundamentalists in Pakistan is widely overstated," then why would the people of Pakistan be so against the US sending in small teams, and surgically striking these triabl areas? It seems this area is quite separated from the rest of Pakistan, in law, order, and at least, depth of belief. And also, in regards to what you also say, "the tribes in Pakistan aren't the enemy," doesn't that conflict with the fact that they are, most likely, harboring OBL and maybe even al-Zawahri? Or are most doing this, perhaps, unknowingly?

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Most of this makes a lot of sense, thanks.

But if what you say is true, "the influence of al-Qaeda and fundamentalists in Pakistan is widely overstated," then why would the people of Pakistan be so against the US sending in small teams, and surgically striking these triabl areas?

Support for the US military doing anything inside their borders is a no-no after Iraq. The world as a whole largely disapproves of Iraq, but the Muslim world in particular is vehemently opposed. This, as you know, is the polar opposite of the kind of worldwide support we had after 9/11 before the Iraq war.

It seems this area is quite separated from the rest of Pakistan, in law, order, and at least, depth of belief.

It is. The population centers of Pakistan, like Karachi, are sprawling urban environments. People speak English, shop in malls, eat KFC, etc.

And also, in regards to what you also say, "the tribes in Pakistan aren't the enemy," doesn't that conflict with the fact that they are, most likely, harboring OBL and maybe even al-Zawahri? Or are most doing this, perhaps, unknowingly?

It's never as black and white, "with us or against us", as you would like to think. Look at Iraq, for example; you have domestic insurgents, Shiite militia, Sunni militia, foreign fighters, al-Qaeda, etc., all intermixing within a passive population who is less concerned with war/politics and more concerned with putting food on the table. Just because those people allow these elements to exist around them without running to US troops and turning them in, doesn't necessarily mean they are our enemies. Also remember that we're talking about tribal people; to them, foreign = enemy, period. They don't get 24/7 cable news or newspaper editorials and decide to pick a side.

Imagine China invading the US. You decide to carry on with your day-to-day while your neighbor wreaks havoc in an underground insurgency. Would you tell the Chinese about him? If not, does that make you guilty of harboring the enemy because your neighbor decided to operate within your "domain"?

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Wheezer
Carpet bomb...whomever does not die in the explosions...will be buried.

no troops needed.

You've got the right idea. I'd mix in some nerve gas for good measure though.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: bamacre
Do you think that if in fact OBL&Co are in Pakistan, that they are "allowing" the Pakistani government to stay in control, even barely, for leverage, against the US? Obviously, if Musharraf were overthrown, that could give the US more reason to invade, or more likely, carry out some kind of military operations inside Pakistan.

Not at all. The influence if al-Qaeda and fundamentalists in Pakistan is widely overstated.

In the mountainous north, their partnership with tribal groups has remained the same since the days of fighting Soviets in Afghanistan. There is a reason the US and Pakistan have had little success there...simply put, nobody wants to go there. It's could be one of the most dangerous regions in the world, not only for the terrain, but also because it's a modern-day "wild west". Guns are plentiful, government laws are unenforceable, and tribal groups retain all the power. It's been like that for centuries, however, and that is why nobody in Pakistan is alarmed.

Any attempts to extend their influence outside this region has been met with a lot of resistance by Pakistanis. Fundamentalist schools and mosques thrive in isolated areas, but are themselves isolated in the population centers. The Red Mosque incident is just one example, and a majority of Pakistanis supported Musharraf's decision to shut it down.

Musharraf is doing a great juggling act at the moment. He wisely pandered to Bush during the "with us or against us" moment after 9/11, but smartly told US troops to stay out of his country (which protected him politically after the Iraq debacle unfolded).

The tribes in Pakistan aren't the enemy, however. They have no ambitions of terrorism or world-domination; they just want to keep their way of life as it has been for hundreds of years.

If we want success, we need to learn from the Soviets mistakes and try surgically removing al-Qaeda with special-ops (akin to removing a malignant tumor from healthy tissue). History and Iraq has shown that brute force will simply not work.

I don't often agree with you, but you nailed it on this issue! Our SMU's and precision air strikes would be all that is needed. At this point, if Pakistan does not do more to root out AQ themselves, then we need the authorization to do so ourselves.

I, for one, am very tired of having my hands tied by some imaginary line in the dirt that our enemies ignore completely.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Imagine China invading the US. You decide to carry on with your day-to-day while your neighbor wreaks havoc in an underground insurgency. Would you tell the Chinese about him? If not, does that make you guilty of harboring the enemy because your neighbor decided to operate within your "domain"?

Not really a good analogy here. Mainly because we had never invaded Pakistan, nor these tribal areas of Pakistan. I just cannot see any justification on their part for harboring OBL and quite possibly al-Zawahri.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: bamacre
And also, in regards to what you also say, "the tribes in Pakistan aren't the enemy," doesn't that conflict with the fact that they are, most likely, harboring OBL and maybe even al-Zawahri? Or are most doing this, perhaps, unknowingly?

Study up on the customs and traditions (Pashtunwali) of the Pashtun tribes. One of their most interesting customs is the provision of sanctuary and protection to anyone who seeks refuge in their homes or villages. This even governs their interaction with sworn enemies and those who are ideologically opposed to them! There have been cases wherein US soldiers have asked for, and received, Pashtun protection and shelter.

Most analysts believe that this is partly the reason AQ was able to embed themselves in the Pashtun tribes of NW Pakistan so easily.

 

[Starbuck1975]

But after wasting a short paragraph explaining that the answer from Pakistan is, has been, and will continue to be a DEFINITE NO regarding US troops on Pakistani soil---its time to ask various posters here who have wasted better than two entire forum pages TRYING TO GET AROUND the obviously we can't put a boot on Pakistani soil without their consent.

The art of negotiations is getting past the "No". Of course Musharraf won't allow American forces on Pakistani soil...he is already in enough hot water for supporting our mission in Afghanistan, and he is very much in fear of the militant Islamic population within his own country.

However, allowing Al Quaida to operate in Pakistan unchecked is not in Musharraf's best interest either, as it could easily lead to his removal at some point in the future.

We have a bargaining chip with Musharraf in the form of his own self-preservation.

Well here is the definitive Starbuck1975 quote----"We obviously can't go in without their consent. "

I didn't realize that acknowledging an important point makes it definitive.

The answer is no--get over it before you get this country in more trouble than it already is.

I fail to see how my opinion will get this country into more trouble...

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Lemon law
And we have another slight problem. Our intel about the rugged border regions is so poor that we don't even know for a certainty that Ossama and friends are even holed up there.

umm, that is primarily because we have no freedom of movement on the Pakistani side of the border.

We would never "invade." That notion is ridiculous.

All we need is an executive order authorizing our Special Mission Units and Air Forces to operate freely throughout the NW sector of Pakistan. At the moment, our units are forced to watch the enemy through binoculars as they slip back across the Pakistani border every damn day; and that is completely unacceptable. (It's the DMZ, Laos, and Cambodia all over again!) We should simply be allowed to pursue and destroy our enemies wherever they run and hide! Period

In case you didn't know, there are international laws against that. Besides, American drones have been over Pakistan and killing civilians with Hellfire missiles for years now. That hasn't work.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about - as usual.

Those "international laws" that you speak of have allowed our enemies a safe haven for six years - with the rare exception of a single hellfire every 18 months, or so. We've given the Pakistani government ample time and money to accomplish the task of rooting the terrorists out, and they haven't done jack sh*t.

It's time we let our SpecOps and Air Force guys loose on them.

OK then big boy, go for it. Go get them terrarists. Oh yeah...YEE HAW.

I'll continue doing what needs to be done... you just go on enjoying your latte!

nice rebuttal btw. :roll:

What exactly are you expecting from me? You are stuck in your ways and you sure as hell will never convince me of your opinion. Therefore, do you. God forbid, if you should die "for freedom" and someone records your last words as "I am Palehorse74", then I can yell at the tv screen "I knew that guy...but he never took my advise to stay out of the lion's den."

BTW, I rarely (as in twice a year) drink coffee, beer, or any other alcoholic beverage, so you can keep your bone-headed sneer to yourself. One last thing, you sure as hell ain't fighting for me, and if you think you are, get those thoughts out of your head. You are fighting for your master, who is the President and his friends, not the American people.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Contrary to the rambo movies, a handfull of special ops troops are not going to be able to destroy entire camps. Targeted killings is probably the most we'll be able to do, and this requires consent of the Pakistani government since we'll need their airspace. Given the close knit tribal nature of these regions, any direct engagement by special ops forces would probably result in them getting wiped out.

Special Ops units are what led the charge against the Taliban into Afghanistan...with precision munitions, air strikes and artillery, our black ops managed to all but eliminate the Taliban's ability to fight a conventional war, enabling opposition forces in Afghanistan to roll into Kabul without facing much resistance.

I am not talking about Rambo going in guns blazing...I am talking about infiltration, identification of targets, and elimination through precision munitions. Special ops rarely get involved in direct engagements, with the exception of perhaps securing strategic points under cover of darkness...during our invasion of Iraq, black ops inserted at night and secured numerous Iraqi strategic points against numerically superior forces.

We supported and armed an indigent militia that was already organized in Afghanistan to do our dirty work there. You really think Pakistan would be cool with the U.S. building up an army in their territory?? I think not.

As I said before, identifying targets is going to require strategic airpower to take them out, which will require the blessing of the Pakistani government in order to not be considered a hostile violation of their sovereignty. Even so, given the very tight knit nature of these tribes, any outsider would probably quickly be identified and killed.

Iraq should prove that you cant kill enough leaders to take down these Islamic movements. We should stop trying to destroy them, and start containing them. We should seal off our territories to any and all immigration from these places, and eventually cease commerce with these regions all together. They can blow up whatever the hell they want so long as it's in their back yard and not mine.

Wow, you're speaking like a real conservative. I didn't know you guys were still around.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Ho-ho-hold on one second. This installation has a substantial dollar value attached to it.

 

[Lemon law]

Well that coming quote is the other Starbuck1975 illusion---namely---"I fail to see how my opinion will get this country into more trouble"

Well in the grand scheme of things--GWB himself gave his word to Mushrarraf that US boots on Pakistani soil was off the table from the get go---precisely what problem do you have with GWB's word being his bond??

Second of all, you may have not have noticed, but GWB stinking thinking has gotten us all into a whole heap of trouble. And when you advocate more of the same, you quite naturally win the booby prize because you have zero insight into why we are flopping.

 

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Lemon law
And we have another slight problem. Our intel about the rugged border regions is so poor that we don't even know for a certainty that Ossama and friends are even holed up there.

umm, that is primarily because we have no freedom of movement on the Pakistani side of the border.

We would never "invade." That notion is ridiculous.

All we need is an executive order authorizing our Special Mission Units and Air Forces to operate freely throughout the NW sector of Pakistan. At the moment, our units are forced to watch the enemy through binoculars as they slip back across the Pakistani border every damn day; and that is completely unacceptable. (It's the DMZ, Laos, and Cambodia all over again!) We should simply be allowed to pursue and destroy our enemies wherever they run and hide! Period

In case you didn't know, there are international laws against that. Besides, American drones have been over Pakistan and killing civilians with Hellfire missiles for years now. That hasn't work.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about - as usual.

Those "international laws" that you speak of have allowed our enemies a safe haven for six years - with the rare exception of a single hellfire every 18 months, or so. We've given the Pakistani government ample time and money to accomplish the task of rooting the terrorists out, and they haven't done jack sh*t.

It's time we let our SpecOps and Air Force guys loose on them.

OK then big boy, go for it. Go get them terrarists. Oh yeah...YEE HAW.

I'll continue doing what needs to be done... you just go on enjoying your latte!

nice rebuttal btw. :roll:

What exactly are you expecting from me? You are stuck in your ways and you sure as hell will never convince me of your opinion. Therefore, do you. God forbid, if you should die "for freedom" and someone records your last words as "I am Palehorse74", then I can yell at the tv screen "I knew that guy...but he never took my advise to stay out of the lion's den."

BTW, I rarely (as in twice a year) drink coffee, beer, or any other alcoholic beverage, so you can keep your bone-headed sneer to yourself. One last thing, you sure as hell ain't fighting for me, and if you think you are, get those thoughts out of your head. You are fighting for your master, who is the President and his friends, not the American people.

And who the fuck are you to tell him what he is fighting for?

Unfortunately for you he is fighting for your right to freely express yourself with your ill mannered comments and cheap shots at our military.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
But after wasting a short paragraph explaining that the answer from Pakistan is, has been, and will continue to be a DEFINITE NO regarding US troops on Pakistani soil---its time to ask various posters here who have wasted better than two entire forum pages TRYING TO GET AROUND the obviously we can't put a boot on Pakistani soil without their consent.

The answer is no--get over it before you get this country in more trouble than it already is.

Why would we have to put a boot on their soil?

We have, satellite imaging, reconnaissance planes and even better low flying reconnaissance drones, some that can even be outfitted with bombs. All we would need to do is use those and once we have located enemy pockets, call in air strikes. Our troops would never have to leave Afghan borders.

However we really do need Pakistan?s permission before we engage in something like this we can not afford yet another enemy in that region.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: Narmer
:
I don't think America is ready for a real war on its soil. You can't catch a tiger by its tail and expect not to be bitten.

We could be struck with long range rockets, but currently no country could invade the US and survive along with our highly trained and extremely well equipped military we have over 100 million armed citizens and that is a lot of fire power.

However in the not so distant future when Mexico, US, and Canada form one country and Hispanics grow in such numbers that we become a one party country ?democrat? it will change.

Our military will be virtually dismantled if not in complete shambles, gun laws will get passed forbidding ownership of them, and we will be plagued with corruption and poverty. We will be nothing more than a big bag of defenseless pig fat, China will walk in and take over with out so much as a whimper and wipe the lot of us out and the rest of the world will laugh as the once mighty falls.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Sinsear

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Lemon law
And we have another slight problem. Our intel about the rugged border regions is so poor that we don't even know for a certainty that Ossama and friends are even holed up there.

umm, that is primarily because we have no freedom of movement on the Pakistani side of the border.

We would never "invade." That notion is ridiculous.

All we need is an executive order authorizing our Special Mission Units and Air Forces to operate freely throughout the NW sector of Pakistan. At the moment, our units are forced to watch the enemy through binoculars as they slip back across the Pakistani border every damn day; and that is completely unacceptable. (It's the DMZ, Laos, and Cambodia all over again!) We should simply be allowed to pursue and destroy our enemies wherever they run and hide! Period

In case you didn't know, there are international laws against that. Besides, American drones have been over Pakistan and killing civilians with Hellfire missiles for years now. That hasn't work.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about - as usual.

Those "international laws" that you speak of have allowed our enemies a safe haven for six years - with the rare exception of a single hellfire every 18 months, or so. We've given the Pakistani government ample time and money to accomplish the task of rooting the terrorists out, and they haven't done jack sh*t.

It's time we let our SpecOps and Air Force guys loose on them.

OK then big boy, go for it. Go get them terrarists. Oh yeah...YEE HAW.

I'll continue doing what needs to be done... you just go on enjoying your latte!

nice rebuttal btw. :roll:

What exactly are you expecting from me? You are stuck in your ways and you sure as hell will never convince me of your opinion. Therefore, do you. God forbid, if you should die "for freedom" and someone records your last words as "I am Palehorse74", then I can yell at the tv screen "I knew that guy...but he never took my advise to stay out of the lion's den."

BTW, I rarely (as in twice a year) drink coffee, beer, or any other alcoholic beverage, so you can keep your bone-headed sneer to yourself. One last thing, you sure as hell ain't fighting for me, and if you think you are, get those thoughts out of your head. You are fighting for your master, who is the President and his friends, not the American people.

And who the fuck are you to tell him what he is fighting for?

Unfortunately for you he is fighting for your right to freely express yourself with your ill mannered comments and cheap shots at our military.

How the fuck is he fighting for my freedom in Iraq, Pakistan or Afghanistan?:laugh: Those are wars of choice, partner, not existential wars. Get your lies out of this thread.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Narmer
How the fuck is he fighting for my freedom in Iraq, Pakistan or Afghanistan?:laugh: Those are wars of choice, partner, not existential wars. Get your lies out of this thread.

In case you're not aware, if we had not invaded Iraq, you'd have a beloved patriot choking you to death RIGHT NOW.

I say invade Pakistan. If the beloved patriot government objects.... who cares. They already gave up on the North-eastern part of their country anyway. They're powerless. And their nukes are jokes compared to ours.

 

[Aimster]

Nebor lacks common sense when it comes to wars and military.

His knowledge comes from video games.

 

[simondedalus]

hey Indians will support it enthusiastically 🙂.........so go ahead...🙂
just a remark no offence plz..........no rejoinder plz......

 

[simondedalus]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Nebor lacks common sense when it comes to wars and military.

His knowledge comes from video games.

really........................................really...............

 

[Lemon law]

As Nebor says---"And their nukes are jokes compared to ours."

You may not think them much of joke if GWB&co decide to just take your advice and invade
Pakistan---and in the resulting Pakistani anarchy and rage, a few of those joke nukes wind up in Al-Quida hands. And then find their way through our porous borders and our joke of home land security---and then get set off in some American city.

And don't think we can make that pre-emptive strike and bag all the Pakistani nukes---the Pakistani's are not stupid and are almost certain to have the nukes dispersed. And given the GWB track record, can any trust him to get 100% of the nukes even if he has good intel.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
As Nebor says---"And their nukes are jokes compared to ours."

You may not think them much of joke if GWB&co decide to just take your advice and invade
Pakistan---and in the resulting Pakistani anarchy and rage, a few of those joke nukes wind up in Al-Quida hands. And then find their way through our porous borders and our joke of home land security---and then get set off in some American city.

And don't think we can make that pre-emptive strike and bag all the Pakistani nukes---the Pakistani's are not stupid and are almost certain to have the nukes dispersed. And given the GWB track record, can any trust him to get 100% of the nukes even if he has good intel.

If we continue to allow AQ to grow in strength throughout Pakistan, and the Pakistani government continues to do next to nothing to stop them, then those nukes just might fall into AQ hands anyway...

so what then?