shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
- 9,500
- 6
- 81
ag?nos?tic
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
This is the "true sense" of "agnostic." An agnostic can believe, but denies knowing. In fact, an agnostic denies that anyone can know. How can such a person be arrogant about something he claims isn't knowable?
Oh LR, why must you make this so easy.
Please re-read the posts. Your statement, while it has logical merit, did not address any of the earlier material to which it was attached, presumably as reference.
Making a statement like that as a response was non-nonsensical and irrelevant, as it did not address the issue raised - which was, for reference, that yourself and MB have adopted certain philosophies as "universal truths".
That is why I classified your statement as psycho-babble. If you prefer, I will now define it as: irrelevant gibberish that did nothing to clarify your previous statement and was a vain attempt to sound deep
If you would like to expand further on the idea to tie it back to the original statement, please do so. But do yourself a favor and don't use the term "universal" to describe someones personally held beliefs. Its foolish.
Signed,
GZeus' Mother
Please re-read the posts. Your statement, while it has logical merit, did not address any of the earlier material to which it was attached, presumably as reference.
Making a statement like that as a response was non-nonsensical and irrelevant, as it did not address the issue raised - which was, for reference, that yourself and MB have adopted certain philosophies as "universal truths".
That is why I classified your statement as psycho-babble. If you prefer, I will now define it as: irrelevant gibberish that did nothing to clarify your previous statement and was a vain attempt to sound deep
If you would like to expand further on the idea to tie it back to the original statement, please do so. But do yourself a favor and don't use the term "universal" to describe someones personally held beliefs. Its foolish.
Signed,
GZeus' Mother
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Originally posted by: shira
Possibly. However, sometimes society decides that the harm caused by an activity that people may voluntarily engage in outweighs the potential good.Originally posted by: LunarRay
Why.... you of course...
So ... maybe L. Ron's system IS good for the folks that it meets the needs of..
For example, why should society make fraud a crime? After all, there's a period of time during which the sucker who voluntarily sends his money to the swindler is quite happy: He thinks he's going to receive something nice in return. However, eventually this pleasurable expectation is shattered by the reality that the money's gone and nothing is going to be received in return.
Do you think it's okay for society to ciminalize fraud? If so, then you might want to reconsider your attitude toward Scientology: People send in lots of money, and they're quite happy for a period of time. But eventually, they realize they've lost their money and ended up with nothing in return.
Criminal Fraud is brought by the people v perp... based on evidence of an established law being broken... So.. I'd have to say the criteria must be met for the finder of fact to so determine.. I'll go along with that... given the burden of proof is with the people and reasonable doubt is the threshold.. Tort Fraud is another matter.. with a lower threshold of burden.. but with that too I'm ok with the definition.
I almost chuckled at the latter part of your comment.. (not at you... but Jim and Tammy Fay Bakker.. PTL... etc.. I use to listen to them alot and Paul Crouch.. think his name was... or is... nice fellow actually and my buddy the author of "the late great planet earth")
Folks send money in to all sorts of folks in the name of God.. and what they get is peace of mind having met their 10% obligation to God... and the recipient. If Scientology does that too... peace of mind.. and all.. I see little difference twixt the two.
I suppose by analogy I can sum up... If I am thirsty... water, milk, pepsi even cokecola will do me... but if I've not pressing need.. I prefer milk.. and pepsi..
Well by affirming that knowing is experience (human knowledge is limited to experience)
and then denying that anybody else could know (In fact, an agnostic denies that anyone can know). You can't know all of what somebody else experiences have been and it's arrogant to claim that you do. Seems to me.............
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Well... in context and I did quote what you quoted... Originally posted by: LunarRay
..... he extrapolates that his truth is universal.. and it sure seems like it is to me.......
I said... it sure seems like it... but that is my belief.. that it is universal... that each is so similar in nature that what is with one can be reasonably assumed to be the same with another.. especially in required functioning.. heart, lungs, eyes, brain... where the mind lives.
Edit:... I really do get a kick out of all the statements of fact that you make with impunity.. hehehehhehehe 'a vain attempt at sounding deep'... I seem to sense you or someone writing under your name and I know each other.. somehow.. maybe professionally.. not sure but the feeling is very strong.. hmmmmm
Actually, I'm very basic.. and deep is not what I am striving for.. but be that as it may.. enjoy as I am..
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Logically and with no other information... you could be your dog.. a logical syllogism assuming you have the same.. do you bark? ... sorry.. couldn't avoid that..
oops the question I was asked.. does he believe that...
I suppose his dog mind to be less interested in all this than yours or mine.. but dogs do get depressed.. I wonder to what extent they can develop issues.. seems mostly they are acting from a blue print.. they will push the envelope and be happy - so it seems - when constrained.. but also rip up my shoes... heemmemememem
Weak. Resorting to that level indicates you have reached the limits of your intellectual capacity. Actually, after reviewing your posts, I can only conclude that your limit was reached long ago.
"you carry a thimble to measure the volume of the ocean"
I now suspect I know the source of your philosophies: reruns of Kung-Fu!!!
Oh please, please follow-up with "When a tree falls in the forest..."
btw - it's "a bientot", two words.... doh! Another attempt to appear intellectual backfires. (Nah, you're just tired. It was a mistype. I can't be so petty.)
I now suspect I know the source of your philosophies: reruns of Kung-Fu!!!
Oh please, please follow-up with "When a tree falls in the forest..."
btw - it's "a bientot", two words.... doh! Another attempt to appear intellectual backfires. (Nah, you're just tired. It was a mistype. I can't be so petty.)
Wait wait wait, you've gone way over my head. What is this business of reruns of Kung-Fu about? You claim a connection to LR but could you please flesh it out? What are the philosophies presented in these reruns and how do they relate to the thimble you carry about, logically speaking? You keep spouting statements that are empty of logical content. How do these philosophies allow you to predict that his next remark should be about a falling tree?
For the life of me, were you not the self proclaimed genius I would conclude you are only an ape throwing the first sh!t he can reach. So do you have some particular educational expertise in this kung-fu stuff or are you just making it up? Who knows, maybe you did a thesis in forest management and reruns of kung-fu.
Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
- 12,505
- 3
- 81
OP,
What are the "builtin fallicies which dominate certain fields of academia" that you refer to in the OP?
Religion is based on faith. How can anyone believe that Abraham's household god is the only god and that Jesus was or is the god's son or this god himself except by having faith?
Science is based on the best explanation that explains and predicts the data and phenomennon. In the past these explanations were changed or refined as new technology became available which allowed improved measurement and observation of the phenomennon. The scientific evolution and or revolution of the explanations of how the world functioned provided by the Greeks to Newton to Einstein and Quantum Mechanics are good examples of how science has worked. If a better explanation than Darwin and Evolution becomes available, after a lot of testing this explanation will be the one taught and continually challenged and refined in research.
IMO, science and religion are two different descriptions of the world and how everything works. There is no real need for them to intermesh.
What are the "builtin fallicies which dominate certain fields of academia" that you refer to in the OP?
Religion is based on faith. How can anyone believe that Abraham's household god is the only god and that Jesus was or is the god's son or this god himself except by having faith?
Science is based on the best explanation that explains and predicts the data and phenomennon. In the past these explanations were changed or refined as new technology became available which allowed improved measurement and observation of the phenomennon. The scientific evolution and or revolution of the explanations of how the world functioned provided by the Greeks to Newton to Einstein and Quantum Mechanics are good examples of how science has worked. If a better explanation than Darwin and Evolution becomes available, after a lot of testing this explanation will be the one taught and continually challenged and refined in research.
IMO, science and religion are two different descriptions of the world and how everything works. There is no real need for them to intermesh.
Pot, meet kettle.
Moonbeam, I try very hard to avoid saying this sort of thing because I feel like stifling conversation is almost always a bad thing... but please... for your own sake...stop talking. Not only are you getting angrier and angrier, but what you are saying is becoming more and more embarassing.
It is sort of amusing however to see the purveyor of universal truth, and the Placid Mirror Face That Merely Reflects Our Own Insecurities start calling people fvcktards and hurling juvenile insults. Guess that mirror might have a couple smudges on it.. hahaha. Maybe you have an engram you haven't purged! Call L. Ron!
Maybe you should try accepting that it's okay to be angry sometimes without it being bad. Feel the liberation of embracing your feelings, even bad ones. (Jesus, I sound like the emperor from star wars.) This way you wouldn't have to live with the stupidity of trying to intertwine daily life with a religious epiphany you got out of a fortune cookie. I don't see you running around telling everyone the lucky numbers it gave you on the other side?
e: Pot, meet kettle.
M: Oh Boy, I have said now I don't know how many times that everything I know about you I know because I know about me.
e: Moonbeam, I try very hard to avoid saying this sort of thing because I feel like stifling conversation is almost always a bad thing... but please... for your own sake...stop talking.
M: Sure you do. Last time you asked people not to listen to me so I asked them to listen carefully to you. Now we find you opposed to what you earlier wished but still leaning in that direction in exceptional cases. Hehe.
e: Not only are you getting angrier and angrier, but what you are saying is becoming more and more embarassing.
M: Hehe, embarrassing to whom? And who is it really who is expressing the anger?
e: It is sort of amusing however to see the purveyor of universal truth, and the Placid Mirror Face That Merely Reflects Our Own Insecurities start calling people fvcktards and hurling juvenile insults.
M: Hehe, I don't just reflect insecurities.
e: Guess that mirror might have a couple smudges on it.. hahaha. Maybe you have an engram you haven't purged! Call L. Ron!
M: And this is how you define mature?
e: Maybe you should try accepting that it's okay to be angry sometimes without it being bad. Feel the liberation of embracing your feelings, even bad ones. (Jesus, I sound like the emperor from star wars.)
M: Maybe you should learn to read and think before you open your stupid mouth and heap imbecility all over your self. There is little I say more often than the importance to feel what you feel.
e: This way you wouldn't have to live with the stupidity of trying to intertwine daily life with a religious epiphany you got out of a fortune cookie. I don't see you running around telling everyone the lucky numbers it gave you on the other side?
M: Sad little jealous fool, I have no more need for the lottery. I found the universe in a grain of sand, remember. Hehe!
A fool is a child who knows nothing and then fight to remain a child because he thinks it is fools that grow up. The growing pains you fear I went through long ago and you can't give them back to me now. Sorry.
M: Oh Boy, I have said now I don't know how many times that everything I know about you I know because I know about me.
e: Moonbeam, I try very hard to avoid saying this sort of thing because I feel like stifling conversation is almost always a bad thing... but please... for your own sake...stop talking.
M: Sure you do. Last time you asked people not to listen to me so I asked them to listen carefully to you. Now we find you opposed to what you earlier wished but still leaning in that direction in exceptional cases. Hehe.
e: Not only are you getting angrier and angrier, but what you are saying is becoming more and more embarassing.
M: Hehe, embarrassing to whom? And who is it really who is expressing the anger?
e: It is sort of amusing however to see the purveyor of universal truth, and the Placid Mirror Face That Merely Reflects Our Own Insecurities start calling people fvcktards and hurling juvenile insults.
M: Hehe, I don't just reflect insecurities.
e: Guess that mirror might have a couple smudges on it.. hahaha. Maybe you have an engram you haven't purged! Call L. Ron!
M: And this is how you define mature?
e: Maybe you should try accepting that it's okay to be angry sometimes without it being bad. Feel the liberation of embracing your feelings, even bad ones. (Jesus, I sound like the emperor from star wars.)
M: Maybe you should learn to read and think before you open your stupid mouth and heap imbecility all over your self. There is little I say more often than the importance to feel what you feel.
e: This way you wouldn't have to live with the stupidity of trying to intertwine daily life with a religious epiphany you got out of a fortune cookie. I don't see you running around telling everyone the lucky numbers it gave you on the other side?
M: Sad little jealous fool, I have no more need for the lottery. I found the universe in a grain of sand, remember. Hehe!
A fool is a child who knows nothing and then fight to remain a child because he thinks it is fools that grow up. The growing pains you fear I went through long ago and you can't give them back to me now. Sorry.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Sure you can... go ahead and be what ever you aspire to... !
Not a bad idea there about Kung-Fu... I use to watch that TV show every once in awhile.. not the reruns but the original series.. I enjoyed Star Trek as well.. hardly ever watched the reruns, though. Gotta love 'Bones'!...
I don't think I understand the 'When a tree falls in the forest..."? Is there some behavior among trees that might interest me? If one falls are the still standing depressed or relieved? In what manner do you communicate with trees? Do all trees communicate in the same manner? More importantly, when a tree falls does it hurt?
In any event, I've to scurry about and level my 'toon'... I want to be there when TBC releases so I can evaluate the new environment and the needs with which to exist there...
So.. Ta Ta... Woof!
Your quasi-scientology is simply not worth talking about... I'm somewhat embarassed to have spent so much time on it already. It's not that it's not worth talking about because it's stupid (although it is), it's that you have retreated so far into the unknowable and the unprovable in an effort to find a place where you won't be proven wrong that your point of view is no longer relevant. Your views are actually totally harmless... and not because of what they say, but precisely because of their regrettable lack of substance.
I'm going to do you a favor... and I hope others will do the same. I'll just stop responding to you. (for real this time!) If you won't stop digging your hole, I'm at least going to try and take away your shovel.
There, I wash my hands of this disaster.
I'm going to do you a favor... and I hope others will do the same. I'll just stop responding to you. (for real this time!) If you won't stop digging your hole, I'm at least going to try and take away your shovel.
There, I wash my hands of this disaster.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Some folks care not that anyone listens to their message... but that the message was delivered.. Another fellow was like that as well.. long long ago.. To those who have ears let them hear... to those who have eyes... let them see...
What they hear and or see is up to them..
I can assure you that often I write in a thread and never go back to see how it evolved.. and sometimes I do.. or will if someone pm's me to respond..
So the shovel.. you can have it.. too hard to type with one anyhow... especially after burying the corpse of intellectual individuality..
e: Your quasi-scientology is simply not worth talking about...
M: Yes, you were unable to achieve the results you sought, to make somebody else besides yourself look like the fool except to other fools
e: I'm somewhat embarassed to have spent so much time on it already.
M: As well you should be.
e: It's not that it's not worth talking about because it's stupid (although it is), it's that you have retreated so far into the unknowable and the unprovable in an effort to find a place where you won't be proven wrong that your point of view is no longer relevant.
M: You were unable to prove me wrong because you could not even get to first base with my point of view.
e: Your views are actually totally harmless... and not because of what they say, but precisely because of their regrettable lack of substance.
M: What views? You comment on something you don't even understand.
e: I'm going to do you a favor... and I hope others will do the same. I'll just stop responding to you. (for real this time!) If you won't stop digging your hole, I'm at least going to try and take away your shovel.
M: You do me no favor at all and you are welcome at any time. You think you took away my shovel but I took away your dirt.
e: There, I wash my hands of this disaster.
M: Your hands were never dirty. You have to see the way you see and there is nothing wrong with that. See what you see. See it deeper and more fully. Let seeing become what you do. But maybe you could be a bit less defensive about what you do. It's a damn curse I can tell you.
M: Yes, you were unable to achieve the results you sought, to make somebody else besides yourself look like the fool except to other fools
e: I'm somewhat embarassed to have spent so much time on it already.
M: As well you should be.
e: It's not that it's not worth talking about because it's stupid (although it is), it's that you have retreated so far into the unknowable and the unprovable in an effort to find a place where you won't be proven wrong that your point of view is no longer relevant.
M: You were unable to prove me wrong because you could not even get to first base with my point of view.
e: Your views are actually totally harmless... and not because of what they say, but precisely because of their regrettable lack of substance.
M: What views? You comment on something you don't even understand.
e: I'm going to do you a favor... and I hope others will do the same. I'll just stop responding to you. (for real this time!) If you won't stop digging your hole, I'm at least going to try and take away your shovel.
M: You do me no favor at all and you are welcome at any time. You think you took away my shovel but I took away your dirt.
e: There, I wash my hands of this disaster.
M: Your hands were never dirty. You have to see the way you see and there is nothing wrong with that. See what you see. See it deeper and more fully. Let seeing become what you do. But maybe you could be a bit less defensive about what you do. It's a damn curse I can tell you.
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