Locked thread in FOR SALE forum, please explain

[Jstic]

Advertised a hard drive which is brand new and indicated that the UPC code has been removed for a rebate. The thread was locked with very little explanation other than a comment about "UPC bandits"
being frowned upon "here".

I feel I am entitled to more of an explanation than this. Although I have only been a member here for less than a year, I have broken no FORUM RULES, I have read them through thoroughly. Being "frowned upon" and breaking a rule are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

If this is in fact a rule, I will gladly delete the post and refrain from making posts like this in the future. If this is not a rule, I would like and am entitled to an explanation.

I am a respected member at several other highly regarded internet sites and have never had any experience like this. Looking forward to your reply.

JimS



The thread has been locked and is being discussed amongst the moderators. There have been several problems involving "UPC bandits" on these forums. Once a decision is reached you will be contacted. Thank you.

AnandTech Moderator

 

[slag]

I came here to post about the same thing and found this thread already here. While I have never had a thread locked about this, I do feel that this thread in question should not be locked for the following reasons:

1. It is not in the TOS or rules section posted at the top of the for sale board.
2. The seller is not attempting to defraud or mislead anyone. The seller comes out first thing and says the UPC code is gone, as in sent it off for a rebate.
3. Any potential buyer can plainly see that what they are getting is a drive with no UPC code. You don't need a UPC code to RMA the merchandise so the buyer is not out anything.
4. The seller is not being a "UPC BANDIT" in the sense that a bandit would imply that he or she is stealing something or purposely misleading any potential buyers and acting shady. None of this is occurring.

I am not affiliated with the seller in any way, nor do i know who the seller is. Just adding my take on this subject.
Thanks
Slag

 

[GeoffS]

Well, this may actually fall under the reseller rule... that an item was purchased with the express purpose of reselling... Then again, that is not expressly stated in the FS/FT Rules, just a line about buying in bulk quantities...

Geoff

 

[Jstic]

GeoffS, you have got to be kidding me. There is no way that you, any moderator here or anyone else for that matter can make that leap. From selling a product that has a rebate submitted to instantly
making the assumption that the product was purchased with the intent of reselling it.

The simple fact is that I bought this drive for a customer who now has changed his mind. I sent in the rebate and now cannot return the drive for that reason. The price I am selling the drive is LOWER than the AFTER REBATE PRICE. If the "watchful mod" who had locked the thread had done just a tiny bit of homework before assuming the worst, he would have been able to come to this conclusion on his own.

And BTW, if you or anyone else, including the "watchful mods" here at AT actually believe that items are not being bought with the intent of reselling right here in these very forums, than you are extremely naive.

I certainly do not mean to insult you or anyone here at AT, including the moderators. I have been buying and sellilng on the internet for several years now and have excellent references and have never been involved in
any kind of a bad or ILLEGAL deal. I generally sell my hardware for 20-40% LESS than anyone else selling the identical items. I do this because I need to move it quickly, often times at a loss to myself. By locking threads like this and making absurd assumptions, the moderators not only make themselves look foolish, they hurt the readership, especially people looking for good, honest deals in the FS/TRADE forum.

BTW, I faxed a copy of the AT Forum rules to my brother in law's law firm and he laughed when he heard the thread was locked. There is NOTHIHG illegal about this and to even question it is a tremendous waste of my time and more importantly, the time of the people who frequent these very forums.

I was a member at AT years ago and left this place for reasons that are not unrelated to this. I eagerly wait an explanation by AT.

 

[Jstic]

Interesting thread HERE, seems this gentleman is selling an LCD which he got a rebate on. Hmmm.......


ROFFLMAO!! THIS guy is selling the SAME DRIVE!!!! And he is a GOLDEN MEMBER???



Would like to know if I am being singled out here, that thread has been seen by mods.

ANOTHER drive being sold in box without UPC. Again, this thread HAS been seen by mods.

ONE MORE TIME again a Golden Member.

This is looking more and more like a case of possible discrimination as opposed to this mod being concerned about "frowned upon" behavior.

Another hard drive being sold exactly as mine.

Note to AT mods, all of the above unlocked threads have been seen by mods. and have ALL been posted in the last few days with the exception of the last one. There is something very seriously wrong here
this is not a case of a "watchful mod" locking a thread, this is much more than that and I fully intend to get to the bottom of this. Please provide information as to how I can contact Anand Shimpi. Thank you.

 

[GeoffS]

Hey Jim...

GeoffS, you have got to be kidding me. There is no way that you, any moderator here or anyone else for that matter can make that leap. From selling a product that has a rebate submitted to instantly
making the assumption that the product was purchased with the intent of reselling it.

Dude... I wasn't slamming you... just hypothesizing... frankly, I don't give a damn one way or another... if a 'UPC bandit' makes a bit of money off a deal and someone saves by buying from a 'UPC bandit', more power to them. I live in Burlington VT... my choices for big chain stores are limited, so I'm more that happy to buy from 'UPC bandits' from time to time. However, I can't fault the mods for wanting to keep a close eye on these transactions.

And BTW, if you or anyone else, including the "watchful mods" here at AT actually believe that items are not being bought with the intent of reselling right here in these very forums, than you are extremely naive.

That may very well be true, but to enforce the idea that this is a user-to-user FS/FT board, the 'No Dealers' rule is enforced as well as it can be. If the mods feel that someone is violating, or bending, the rules a little too flagrently, they act.

BTW, I faxed a copy of the AT Forum rules to my brother in law's law firm and he laughed when he heard the thread was locked. There is NOTHIHG illegal about this and to even question it is a tremendous waste of my time and more importantly, the time of the people who frequent these very forums.

Your point being? The mods enforce the letter and the intent of the rules here... the rules that you accepted and agreed to follow when you signed up. I note that the mod also stated in your locked thread that (s)he was going to consult with the other mods.... looks like they're going to the slo-mo replay on this one.

I eagerly wait an explanation by AT.

I don't doubt you will get one, and an apology if warranted also.

Would like to know if I am being singled out here...

Good question. You've asked your question and presented your case, now let the mods have their discussion and get back to you.

Geoff

 

[Jstic]

Geoff, I was by no means slamming you either, but attempting to point out the obvious.

I am certainly all in favor of forum rules, and more in favor of them being enforced, as such rules are meaningless without enforcement.

This however, is not a matter of the rules at all as anyone can clearly see. Like I stated, I thoroughly read the rules here and my post in no
way violates any rule of this forum. I wonder why you keep bringing up the rules when in fact the rules are on my side here.

I mentioned my attorney as a matter of the legality of the issue, as I for one would certainly not want to be a party to anything illegal. My point was
that he pretty much thought that what this mod. did was a joke and now it is quite apparent that what was done here is by no means the standard
or accepted practice in the FS/FT forum. He confirmed my feeling that my thread was in no way illegal and that we live in a free society where things are bought
and sold like this all the time. His advice was that I should take my business elsewhere, which is what I intend to do anyway, but I thought that this should
be discussed openly. Readers like myself and slag, who frequent these forums and without who the forums would not exist, are entitled to be treated
as fairly as other readers, wether we are "golden, diamond " or brand new members.

Again, I eagerly await a resonse from AT.

 

[Sundog]

The thread has been locked and is being discussed amongst the moderators. There have been several problems involving "UPC bandits" on these forums. Once a decision is reached you will be contacted. Thank you.

AnandTech Moderator

I am also very interested in this ruling as it would have come into play in some of my past sales, like of an extra HDD that was for my wife's machine and she decided to get a 120GB over an 80 GB that had already been purchased and the rebates sent in.

This ruling will have a significant impact on the FS forum. Just do a search for UPC (select in title or body, in the for sale forum) and hundreds of sales pop up. I got tired and stopped counting after 50.

 

[Jstic]

My point exactly Sundog. Why is it that in the literally hundreds of for sale threads of this nature that are now in existence, it is only mine that was locked?????

I'm looking into this more deeply and have come across some rather interesting info already.

 

[olds]

I feel that you would have been better served to PM those links to a Mods so that it could be discussed among them.
Also, I agree with what GeoffS said about resellers. I am not saying that you are one, but it is most likely why your thread was locked.
I agree on keeping the resellers out of here, that's not what this forum was intended for. But legitimate people such as yourself may/will fall through the cracks.
BTW, I need 2, 20 - 30 GB hard drives. Have any deals for me?

 

[minendo]

Originally posted by: Jstic
Note to AT mods, all of the above unlocked threads have been seen by mods.

What makes you so sure about mods seeing those threads?

 

[ProfessorFate]

I would hope that the Mods opt not to ban selling anything that has the UPC code removed on it. A lot of folks don't want the hassle of an 8 week wait for a rebate. Other younger traders here might not have a credit card but can still buy "new" stuff online here by various means not requiring a credit card. If you buy a product, send in the rebate and then decide not to use it, you'd be forced to go to Ebay. I never actually unbox a purchase until I'm ready to install it as I'm always upgrading my box and if I see some hardware I have to have in FS/FT then what I just bought on Sunday, might be useless to me on Thursday.
This is the best FS/FT forum there is IMHO, because the Mods are ever present and the Trollhunters are ready to take care of business as well. I would imagine the Mods are busy enough without having to police every sale for UPCs.
This is a forum predominantly occupied by mature individuals. Let them decide whether a piece of hardware is a value to each individual, barcode attatched or not.
Thanks for the time.
Jim

 

[crypticlogin]

Right off the bat, I'll say that I'm highly suspicious of any "brand new, in box, no UPC" items appearing in FS/FT where the seller claims it wasn't bought for resale. My reasoning is that if I bought something for personal use or in a client's box, I'll be damned if I don't open it and test it as soon as I can. If it doesn't work, I know I can still exchange the item without (much) penalty since it's still within the exchange period, and the UPC is intact. Most stores don't have a problem exchanging opened items as long as the product genuinely doesn't work and contents are still included. Only then, after I verify a working product do I make the rebate submission. Otherwise, if you didn't buy it for resale, why would you cut out the UPC first, effectively voiding any chance of a verified working item?

It becomes especially dubious when that specific item was recently mentioned in a Hot Deals thread. And the klaxon's blaring like mad when that seller posted to that Hot Deals thread with "Thanks! I just bought 5!".

Sure, there might be a few legitimate reasons why a new-in-box UPC-less item's not being sold with resale in mind, but the explanation should be pretty convincing.

 

[Jzero]

It becomes especially dubious when that specific item was recently mentioned in a Hot Deals thread. And the klaxon's blaring like mad when that seller posted to that Hot Deals thread with "Thanks! I just bought 5!".

Part of the reason the FS/FT forum was created was because there was a good deal of friction created when there would be a great HD and someone would post about how they got 10 of then when the deal appears to have died suddenly that guy puts up a NEW hot deal saying "I'll sell you this item for $xxx" and when you called them out, they would say "Well it's still less than retail."

This is an interesting situation. A coworker once sold me something that had no UPC. It was a good deal. He didn't tell me about the missing UPC and when I noticed it, I wondered if it was illegal, but I decided that it's not really any different than selling the item after claiming the rebate. It was, however, shady that he didn't say the UPC was missing. He should have included that, regardless of whether it made any difference in the end.

The reseller rule is an interesting twis, though.

 

[Johnnie]

I agree with Jim (ProfessorFate). What does it matter that an item has a barcode or not?
I can understand if you order a truckload of Dell systems (PAB) to resell...but a hard drive or two...come on...

 

[chizow]

This doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me either. I can see the Mods PoV, but again, it would be just as easy to say NO RETAIL BOX . I think many people here hold on to their retail boxes, UPC gone for rebate or not, as a service to potential buyers in the future or simply b/c they are packrats, not b/c they plan on flipping it for a quick profit.

I guess there is a line between "I bought it and no longer need it" and "I got a sweet deal on an item and I'm gonna make face - coupon + rebate" off of it, but to judge on a case by case basis is a bit subjective. Regardless, in a free economy, I still feel the burden is on the BUYER to determine if the price is fair or not. Personally, I WILL NOT pay full "perceived" value on an item missing its UPC b/c I know the item was had for less, and chances are, will be had for less again. Ironically, pointing out this fact or the deal from which a rebate item originated is strictly PROHIBITED as a form of thread crapping. Kind of a double-edged sword I guess.

Ebay is a bad example of rebate bandits, but I don't think the majority of FS/FT people seek out to make a profit and is part of the reason Ebay is so frowned upon in FS/FT. I think most users in FS/FT are savvy enough to weigh the pros and cons of buying a UPC-less item, and to base a decision on that what they know.

Chiz

 

[crypticlogin]

Part of the reason the FS/FT forum was created was because there was a good deal of friction created when there would be a great HD and someone would post about how they got 10 of then when the deal appears to have died suddenly that guy puts up a NEW hot deal saying "I'll sell you this item for $xxx" and when you called them out, they would say "Well it's still less than retail."

That's something I didn't know. Obviously, I'm showing how new I really am.

Originally posted by: Johnnie
I agree with Jim (ProfessorFate). What does it matter that an item has a barcode or not?
I can understand if you order a truckload of Dell systems (PAB) to resell...but a hard drive or two...come on...

So what if someone does it in small quantities but does it regularly like two or three drives each week? At the end of the month, that could be ten drives. In your opinion, is that any different than picking up and selling 10 drives at the start of the month and clearing the bunch by the end?

Don't get me wrong, I have a great deal of respect for many traders and their opinions, but I think this is either the first or second time I've seen you and others speaking about the reseller clause.

 

[Johnnie]

So what if someone does it in small quantities but does it regularly like two or three drives each week? At the end of the month, that could be ten drives. In your opinion, is that any different than picking up and selling 10 drives at the start of the month and clearing the bunch by the end?

Man if someone has the tenacity to wait on 10 or more rebates a month..then they deserve to try to resell the stuff j/k

Face it...even if individuals do buy items to resell here...they do not make that much $$$$...most of us are too tight !!

 

[ProfessorFate]

Strange issue. It never really occurs to me that selling an item with or without the UPC is a problem. Once that item has changed hands the rebate is void anyway. I've never seen anything on a rebate form that states you can't sell an item, like a piece of Academic software does. I don't take stuff out of the box until I'm ready to use it because I know I'd rather buy a sealed piece of hardware, as opposed to open and "tested". New but tested makes me leary, (why are you selling it?) missing UPC does not.
Here's another can of worms: I recently bought an LCD for my daughter from Dell, as well as a hard drive for my box. In order to use a $100 off $400 cooupon I had to buy an additional piece of hardware. I bought a LiteOn burner. I kept the burner for about a month, never had a use for it and sold it this week here, new in box. Have I done something wrong because I got a bargain on that burner? I don't think so. The buyer is happy, I'm happy and life goes on. He got it for $9 less than NewEgg charges. No body here is going to pay more than they want for a piece of hardware. I see a lot of nastiness and jealousy in Hot Deals sometimes when deals surface. Get over it.
I'm not against policing the forums for retailers, I am against more unnecassary rules.

 

[Johnnie]

I am against more unnecassary rules.

Well said my friend

 

[Jstic]

What needs to happen here, and IMMEDIATELY, is that all threads containing items for sale with UPC codes removed be locked. This is just plain simple fairness. If this is not done, then it more clearly than ever
becomes a matter of discrimination. Believe me, AT does NOT want to go down that road, especially with me. This is not a threat of any kind, I am only seeking fairness here. It has now been more than 12 hours and
no response from AT or any mods, to me privately or here in this public forum.

And to any of you who believe that this is a private matter between myself and mods, or AT, you are most definitely very wrong. This is very much a public matter, as this is a public forum open to all.
This is also a matter of basic human fairness and decency. AT nor its mods are above the rules of the internet or the rules and laws of the USA.

oldsmoboat, I find your response interesting in that the moderator who locked my thread and called me a "UPC bandit" did not PM me, or do any of this privately. This was all done openly for the community
to see. Yet you feel that I should have PM'd them or emailed them privately to resolve this matter. I am treating them the same way I was treated. Golden Rule applies here. No 20-30 gig drives but I have a
60gig IBM 120GXP, PM me if you are interested. It's OEM, no UPC, LOL.

 

[KK]

Well, I don't thinnk that your link should be locked, and do believe it will eventually be unlocked. Mods can be unfair at times, but that's part of life. Why not just list it again and just say "unused drive only" don't mention anything about the box.

KK

 

[olds]

Originally posted by: Jstic
oldsmoboat, I find your response interesting in that the moderator who locked my thread and called me a "UPC bandit" did not PM me, or do any of this privately. This was all done openly for the community
to see. Yet you feel that I should have PM'd them or emailed them privately to resolve this matter. I am treating them the same way I was treated. Golden Rule applies here. No 20-30 gig drives but I have a
60gig IBM 120GXP, PM me if you are interested. It's OEM, no UPC, LOL.

I think you should have PM'd them for your own sake. You been here for almost a year and must know that challenging the Mods will most likely not get you what you want. Especially after you said "...discrimination. Believe me, AT does NOT want to go down that road, especially with me."
If in fact this is your only hdd to sell, the Mod was wrong to lock your thread till they discussed it. As you said, all of them (or none of them) should have been locked. I bet it was that "new" Mod.

 

[crypticlogin]

This is just plain simple fairness. If this is not done, then it more clearly than ever becomes a matter of discrimination. Believe me, AT does NOT want to go down that road, especially with me. This is not a threat of any kind, I am only seeking fairness here.

This is the second thread I've read in as many days (well, third if you count the duplicate threads in OT and distributed computing) where somebody's claiming discrimination from a forum. What is with that?

It has now been more than 12 hours and no response from AT or any mods, to me privately or here in this public forum.

Dude, you should know by now that mod powwows aren't scheduled every hour, 24 hours a day. Uhh, give it time?

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: Jstic
What needs to happen here, and IMMEDIATELY, is that all threads containing items for sale with UPC codes removed be locked. This is just plain simple fairness.

I agree with you up until this point, but I will explain more further below.

If this is not done, then it more clearly than ever becomes a matter of discrimination. Believe me, AT does NOT want to go down that road, especially with me. This is not a threat of any kind, I am only seeking fairness here.

Here is where you cross the line between rationally raising a valid issue and irrationally badgering. This forum is private. You have no entitlement to be allowed to post here. You can be banned for any reason. Your thread can be locked because The Kinky Mod learned you aren't into his games. Your thread can be locked because one of the moderators doesn't like you. You only have two guaranteed rights on Anandtech or any other forum: The right to follow the rules, and the right to leave. Claiming "discrimination" just weakens your argument. The mods said they are discussing the issue, and they are.

It has now been more than 12 hours and no response from AT or any mods, to me privately or here in this public forum.

This is what I was referring to in the first part of my reply. The moderators here are volunteers. They give freely of their personal time to police the forums as best they can. Bearing that in mind, realize the following:
1. Someone is going to have to go through every thread in FS/FT and lock all "UPC Bandit" threads. Who is going to do that, and how?
2. How can you expect a group of volunteers to all get together and come to a consensus on an issue within 12 hours? They are NOT here to serve at our beck and call. They are not paid 24x7 support staff. They responded to your initial query within minutes. They will respond with a ruling when they have had time to get together.

And to any of you who believe that this is a private matter between myself and mods, or AT, you are most definitely very wrong. This is very much a public matter, as this is a public forum open to all.
This is also a matter of basic human fairness and decency. AT nor its mods are above the rules of the internet or the rules and laws of the USA.

The Internet has no rules, and the rules of the USA say that your house is your house. They have no obligation, legal, moral, or otherwise, to respond to your demands. You should be appreciative of the fact that they do when they don't have to.

oldsmoboat, I find your response interesting in that the moderator who locked my thread and called me a "UPC bandit" did not PM me, or do any of this privately. This was all done openly for the community
to see. Yet you feel that I should have PM'd them or emailed them privately to resolve this matter. I am treating them the same way I was treated. Golden Rule applies here.

Not necessarily. They often lock a thread without a PM. They want everyone to see the reason in order to let other people know what they can and cannot do.
I agree that PM would have been a better way to go about this. There's a time and a place for everything. If my boss chastizes me in front of the whole team, I'm not going to snap back at him in front of the whole team, I'm going to discuss the matter with him in private.

Be careful, Jstic. You've done well thus far, but you would be well served to back off from the discrimination claims and the demands you place for things you aren't entitled to.