Load bearing wall or not? Contractors disagree

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

I need a tie-breaker from ATH&G. I'm getting bids to remodel my 2nd floor bedroom. The current closets will get demo'ed and replaced with a master bath and walk-in-closet. One contractor who talked to his engineer insists the closet wall is carrying "some" of the roof load because of how the trusses sit.

The engineer I had draw up my plans says the trusses bear on the outer walls, so there's no way the vaulted ceiling is sitting on the closet. I took a stud finder to the wall above the doors and it's just 2x4 studs with double top plate not an actual header. It can't be carrying that much weight.

Thoughts? Here's a pic of the wall and the attic truss. For the record I'm not basing my decision on posts here, just curious what you guys think.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

No way it's load bearing.

 

[mxnerd]

I think it's a load bearing wall because the width above the door , and the trusses that's perpendicular to the roof, there should be a header there. But it's just my guess.

Judge by viewing the youtube videos.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

I thought about that but the attics in those videos use rafters which usually have bearing walls at some midpoint in the span. My attic uses engineered trusses which are usually designed to clear the span without supports.

Here's a couple more crappy pics. The pic in the OP is above the closet. The middle is the vault peak, and the right side is over the bed which terminates on the exterior wall.

 

[mxnerd]

I'm just a house owner, not an engineer.

Hope some real engineers can answer your questions.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

I'm just a house owner, not an engineer.

Hope some real engineers can answer your questions.

Me neither. I posted this because 2 engineers disagreed (mine and the contractors).

 

[herm0016]

the height above the doors is just the height above the doors, because all doors are the same height. that is the weirdest argument for a load bearing wall i have heard yet.

its what, 2 feet from the outside wall?? not load bearing. i have gutted a few houses, replaced walls and replaced load bearing walls with beams. its not load bearing. closet door walls are not framed for load, it would require a massive header for that span and special consideration for the center post on the floor joists, and probably a post or beam below that depending on load because it is so concentrated.

 

[Micrornd]

Those are manufactured trusses, not stick-built.
Non-bearing wall.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Any supports tying into the closet wall aren't supporting anything. They're hanging from the actual support.

 

[Greenman]

Me neither. I posted this because 2 engineers disagreed (mine and the contractors).

The engineer that stamped the plans is the only one that counts, and he's almost certainly correct. Trusses are generally designed to clear span the building, they are tied to interior walls, but not supported to them.

 

[Greenman]

I think it's a load bearing wall because the width above the door , and the trusses that's perpendicular to the roof, there should be a header there. But it's just my guess.

Judge by viewing the youtube videos.

View attachment 8169

That space is a function of standard doors being 6'8" tall.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Is there a similar style truss on the other side of the house, if yes is there a closet or other secondary wall there too? If not it would be a good indication the closet is not needed for that style truss to work.

Also when you're looking inside the attic, are you sure that part you marked is sitting on the closet wall and not the outside wall? Could be the rest of what you see is actually the overhang outside, does your house have a decent size overhang?

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

^ Yes the truss continues to the opposite side outer wall, where there is no closet. The marked line in my pic isn't in the right spot. The closet is approx where the web comes down. That doesn't mean it's bearing on the closet wall, just that it's where the vault ends and the ceiling "levels" into the closet space.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Trying to see if I can find a truss design similar to yours I found this:

It's kinda a similar version just less peak, and there's no load bearing wall at bottom part of truss except for the end walls. I guess one way to visualize it is if you were using big rafters like 1x12 and when it comes down, only one part of it is touching the wall because it's too big. It's still being held up and the overall thickness is still making the roof strong.

Normally you have a scissor truss, where the bottom and top meet at a single point to sit on the end walls but this design is different, guess most of the load is still at the top and the rest of the truss does not really need to sit on anything because of how it's engineered, it just helps make it stronger.

I'm leaning towards it not being load bearing the more I think of it, but I'm not an engineer either. It does seem like a deceptive design though so I can kinda see how even the engineers can't agree 100%. They don't want to say it's not load bearing and turns out it is.

 

[BoomerD]

How old is the house? Any way to contact the original builder?

 

[mxnerd]

Cut open the insulation foam and take a look?

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

How old is the house? Any way to contact the original builder?

About 20 years old. I did, and the builder said they trashed the plans long ago. Other option I haven't tried is city archives.

 

[skull]

Looks like all its holding up is the drywall catchers for the vaulted ceiling and closet ceiling. Not load bearing but you'll have to do something to hold up the ceilings and insulation.

 

[skull]

Looks like all its holding up is the drywall catchers for the vaulted ceiling and closet ceiling. Not load bearing but you'll have to do something to hold up the ceilings and insulation.

Unless Im mistaken and the vaulted ceiling continues into the closet and isn't flat.

 

[Hans Gruber]

I am not an engineer. Take a sledge hammer and give that center closet divider/drywall hell and see what happens. I don't think it's load bearing but behind it and overhead appears to be but certainly not the front of the closet.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Unless Im mistaken and the vaulted ceiling continues into the closet and isn't flat.

That's what I wonder too. If the slope continues, then I'd say with almost 100% certainty that it's not load bearing.

Though the more I think of it I think the truss can be considered as being a single stand alone unit, like if it was just a large piece of lumber. So I think it would be something like my attachment. The load is going downwards for the entire unit and as long as one corner of the bottom is on a load bearing wall the entire thing is supported. It is of course also depending on the opposite truss and both sides together create a downward force. Churches use a similar setup, and it saves from needing any horizontal supports to stop the walls from buckling. Though scissor trusses are more common and they typically involve the bottom part being the tip of a triangle, this is almost like a reverse version.

 

[skull]

We also need to clarify load bearing I consider something to be load bearing if its holding up the roof or the floors. This is doing neither but it does look like support for the vaulted ceiling the way its setup. In that sense its not load bearing but is supporting something. It just doesn't need to hold much.

What do you plan on doing with the ceiling in the new closet/bathroom? If you make it a flat tradition height you could just transfer the weight to the new wall. If you leave a void over top of it to make it look cooler put the weight on the ceiling joists. Which would transfer the weight to the exterior wall and new interior wall. If your keeping the vaulted ceiling in the new rooms it'll be a little tricky but nothing like trying to support the roof or floor. Thats all if its currently flat in the closet like I think it is. If it is another way would be to continue the vaulted ceiling to the exterior wall and support it that way you'll just lose some ceiling height over the shitter and in the shower.

 

[Greenman]

About 20 years old. I did, and the builder said they trashed the plans long ago. Other option I haven't tried is city archives.

Really, trust the engineer that stamped the plans. Trusses are designed to clear span the building. Your engineer knows this, he designed the project knowing that, his ass is on the line if it fails. If he had doubt, he'd have designed it differently. The thing to keep in mind here is that the engineer will spend any amount of your money necessary to avoid getting sued.

I live this stuff every day, I deal with engineers on almost every single project. They don't take risks, they don't pay for added work, you do.

 

[JEDIYoda]

What the heck....go for it! What could go wrong? It`s just a wall...….easy to replace if your wrong! After all you have the help of the ATOT engineers...….there is not a diner group of loser….errr engineers on the internet!!
When the house collapses don`t forget to post pictures!!

 

[Micrornd]

Really, trust the engineer that stamped the plans. Trusses are designed to clear span the building. Your engineer knows this, he designed the project knowing that, his ass is on the line if it fails. If he had doubt, he'd have designed it differently. The thing to keep in mind here is that the engineer will spend any amount of your money necessary to avoid getting sued.

I live this stuff every day, I deal with engineers on almost every single project. They don't take risks, they don't pay for added work, you do.

With 40 years in the profession, I second this.
And if your contractor thinks the closet wall is a bearing wall, find another contractor, fast.