So now since I've proven to you that your "logical position" essentially means nothing when weighed against reality, you want to keep the focus on me.
Have a good night, sir.
So now since I've proven to you that your "logical position" essentially means nothing when weighed against reality, you want to keep the focus on me.
Have a good night, sir.
Rob, as an atheist I can't say there is no god. But I can examine the credibility of religion, and christianity falls quite flat in this area, and makes me question why anyone would believe. Your religious handbook from which all belief in jesus and the christian god stems from, says some things that just aren't true. Things we know now to be untrue, but probably seemed very plausible 2,000-3,000+ years ago.
The bible quite literally says you can move a mountain with prayer if you're faithful. Do you have faith Rob? Can you move a mountain through prayer? Can I get a yes/no to prayer working as described in bible verse Matthew 17:20, please? Can you do what the bible says you can do through faith and prayer? Assuming you can't, how is this not evidence that prayer doesn't work?
The bible says there was a global flood that covered everything. Yet there is no such evidence for this (I'm also a little confused why an all knowing, all powerful being killed everyone except Noah and his family, and of course two of every animal in the world
, to cleanse the world of wickedness with the flood, only to have to send his son to be a blood sacrifice to himself some years later).The bible claims the Earth is the center of the universe. We know this is not remotely close to true. And the sun doesn't orbit our planet either.
For centuries the bible helped push the myth that the world was flat (almost like it was written and made up by people who really had no idea about reality and had no divine intervention at all...)
There are many contradictions in the bible that call into question the accuracy of the stories told.
There is plenty more, but here are a few things that to me discredit the bible. Why should I believe it's wild and miraculous stories? Because it is socially acceptable in this corner of the world? Like I said, I'm still reading a lot about other religions, but so far they all seem equally man made and equally false.
If there is no physical evidence, but a suspect in a crime tells all kinds of stories that are shown to be completely false and contradicts himself, that can be brought up in court as evidence if that person is prosecuted. That's how logic works. In this case christianity makes all kinds of claims that are completely false and contradicts itself.
To me this is evidence that at least the christian faith is indeed man made and untrue. If an all powerful creator was responsible for its contents, I would expect him to at least get the basics right.
Rob, as an atheist I can't say there is no god. But I can examine the credibility of religion, and christianity falls quite flat in this area, and makes me question why anyone would believe. Your religious handbook from which all belief in jesus and the christian god stems from, says some things that just aren't true. Things we know now to be untrue, but probably seemed very plausible 2,000-3,000+ years ago.
The bible quite literally says you can move a mountain with prayer if you're faithful. Do you have faith Rob? Can you move a mountain through prayer? Can I get a yes/no to prayer working as described in bible verse Matthew 17:20, please? Can you do what the bible says you can do through faith and prayer? Assuming you can't, how is this not evidence that prayer doesn't work?
The bible says there was a global flood that covered everything. Yet there is no such evidence for this (I'm also a little confused why an all knowing, all powerful being killed everyone except Noah and his family, and of course two of every animal in the world
The bible claims the Earth is the center of the universe. We know this is not remotely close to true. And the sun doesn't orbit our planet either.
For centuries the bible helped push the myth that the world was flat (almost like it was written and made up by people who really had no idea about reality and had no divine intervention at all...)
There are many contradictions in the bible that call into question the accuracy of the stories told.
There is plenty more, but here are a few things that to me discredit the bible. Why should I believe it's wild and miraculous stories? Because it is socially acceptable in this corner of the world? Like I said, I'm still reading a lot about other religions, but so far they all seem equally man made and equally false.
If there is no physical evidence, but a suspect in a crime tells all kinds of stories that are shown to be completely false and contradicts himself, that can be brought up in court as evidence if that person is prosecuted. That's how logic works. In this case christianity makes all kinds of claims that are completely false and contradicts itself.
To me this is evidence that at least the christian faith is indeed man made and untrue. If an all powerful creator was responsible for its contents, I would expect him to at least get the basics right.
That's very good.
I'm glad that you found out the truth about my religion. I, for one, support your atheism and your findings.
Now since you've shown me your reasons to lack belief and you're solid in this, and I have no reason to abandon my belief, we really have nothing more to discuss at this point.
But thanks.
alzan
Diamond Member
- May 21, 2003
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Why? Because you cannot convert me to your line of thinking?
I look at these discussions as internet versions of creationists/evolutionists debates -- the debaters come in looking to bolster their position while diminishing yours at the same time...no one actually wants to change their thinking, or learn where their opponent is coming from.
Their agenda is to convert the listeners to agreeing with them.
Too bad if I dismiss your line of thinking. Maybe you should come with some better arguments than typical atheistic incredulous rhetoric.
Been there, done that. Or maybe you should actually be open to learning instead of thinking you have all the answers.
Actually, he's been arguing from the lack of evidence (argument from ignorance) in which he asserts makes his position true.
There's a reason that's a fallacy.
alzan
Diamond Member
- May 21, 2003
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I've read his and your posts in this thread; per what has been said I don't see either of you trying to convert the other. Though I still can't imagine why an atheist would try to convert a theist, what would be the point?
When creation scientists are ready to put their theory up to testing/verification/falsification and peer review, then evolutionary scientists will consider creation as more than hypothesis.
Conversion to a particular way of thinking is an assumed tactic, not a given.
"... typical atheistic incredulous rhetoric" - translated - you've already closed off your mind.
No, I think he's arguing Russell's Teapot. "The fallaciousness of arguments from ignorance does not mean that one can never possess good reasons for thinking that something does not exist."
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Bitek
Lifer
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I would think Satan would approve of trolling, ergo his trolling is proof of his sincere belief.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
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not really it turns into incessant blabbering to hear a Atheist use the same arguments over and over.......yet if anything Atheism is a political party -- they all almost totally obey the party line....
That's not what he's saying. Read this quote from him:
Here, he specifically said if prayer cannot move a mountain, that is evidence that prayer doesn't work. He never mentioned that there is a good reason to hold that position.
His "yes/no" request is a false dichotomy, another fallacious line of reasoning.
His argument follows this example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Absence_of_evidence_2
He's been committing this fallacy, unabated, for weeks.
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alzan
Diamond Member
- May 21, 2003
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No more incessant than the blabbering of some theists. Any who have reduced the other sides' words to "rhetoric" have deemed themselves closed to further discussion.
Hey, discussions have to end. I've made it clear that he's provided me no reasons to change my thinking, and I haven't given him any.
What do you expect us to do? Keep arguing?
You seem to post a lot on these types of topics and I have come to see a pattern from you. You respond with shallow arguments and every time I have responded to you, you avoid the question or statement I make.
You cast aside arguments that you dont agree with as being "typical" rather than explain why you disagree.
I comment here because I enjoy discussing topics and seeing how my views and opinions stack up. You seem to post about now wrong everyone else is, and make personal jabs.
To each his own I guess, but it does seem rather empty from my perspective.
I love these kind of topics, and glad you notice my arguments.
Actually, slowspider called my argument "typical", in this thread anyway.
Please, provide threads/quotes where I've posted about how "wrong" everyone else is, followed by personal attacks. I have close to 5000 posts, so I expect an exhaustive list.
My guess is that you have no clue as to what you're talking about.
alzan
Diamond Member
- May 21, 2003
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What I posted about arguments from ignorance and what you reference are two different things though. I'm not familiar with the passage from Matthew but to me it speaks more to resolution to an individual or societal issue or problem vs. having a positive attitude towards life and it's struggles. Like I always say, the Bible is more allegory and parable than it is anything else.
Just as theists derive peace of mind and serenity from believing that G-d exists even though there's no evidence, so then do atheists derive serenity and peace of mind that there's no evidence of G-d's existence. In that vein, both argue from ignorance.
He's not asked you to change your thinking, all he or just about any other atheist in any of these various discussions have asked, if at all, is to consider his position. If we allow for others to think in ways counter to our own, we lend credence and respect towards one another. We can not only agree to disagree, we can accept others as valued, respected and even honored.
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Rob, no. Your example of, "There is no evidence for aliens therefore aliens don't exist" is not the same as my standpoint. If aliens supposedly left us a manual thousands of years back saying they created us, that x, y, and z is true, and that if you believe in them and telepathically talk to them you can do anything, like move a mountain.
The problem is you find evidence that shows their story of humanity's creation doesn't jive with their manual. X, y, and z turn out to be completely untrue. And as hard as some may try, the telepathic connection appears to make zero difference in the outcomes of situations, and certainly no mountains are moved.
The smart thing to do would be to question the story of the aliens. Especially because there are thousands of other stories about hobbits, elves, trolls from the center of the earth, etc. all claiming to do the same thing the aliens did, with some differences in the stories.
What makes the story of the aliens special? It just happens to be that our country likes the story of the aliens and makes it very socially acceptable. Why is the story of the aliens somehow special?
You said that if prayer doesn't move a mountain, then that means prayer doesn't work, right?
alzan
Diamond Member
- May 21, 2003
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I'm suggesting it; I wouldn't presume to know how or from where individuals derive their comfort.
For myself as agnostic, I take comfort that the existence of G-d is not knowable.
There can much of positive value derived from belief or spirituality; but I most also reconcile that with the fact that there can be much of negative value as well.
He and I have talked for a while, and we are well-aware of our respective positions, just like you and I via the many PM's we've exchanged.
But I don't agree with him, and that being said, it's sometimes best to talk about something totally different, or a different aspect of the inquiry.
FWIW, I've never heard an atheist say they take comfort in not knowing something.
In fact, that's the position that theists are often criticized for holding.
alzan
Diamond Member
- May 21, 2003
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So you can agree to disagree. Discuss different aspects if you like, but when the subject comes up, and it will, it can be argued amicably.
Although, based on post 269 he's got a point; what he said and what you claim he said are two different things.
That's all for now, marriage maintenance calls.
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