Llano vs. Nvidia Graphics

[psoomah]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/...formance_than_Core_i_Sandy_Bridge.htmlBesides

"integrating high-performance graphics engine and Turbo Core technology, AMD will also promote so-called Dual Graphics technology, which will essentially be a CrossFireX capability for low-cost discrete and integrated graphics. Certain combinations of standalone graphics cards (code-named Whistler and Seymour) with integrated solutions will add up to 75% of graphics performance to systems. One of the messages that AMD wants to send is that while its discrete graphics cards provide additive performance with its platforms, Nvidia Corp.'s GeForce graphics cards do not provide additive performance on either AMD or Intel platforms.." (bold mine)

With Lucid's Virtu software bypassing Nvidia's Optimus lock on Intel, Nvidia is facing a laptop and mass market desktop OEM situation where it has no distinct competitive edge while AMD has a substantial competitive edge.

Don't see how Nvidia doesn't lose substantial OEM sales by this time next year.

 

[iCyborg]

It's not all that clear, at least for laptop:
AMD has PowerXpress and additive GPU+IGP performance on AMD platforms, and nothing on Intel. nVidia doesn't have additive GPU+IGP at all, and Optimus on Intel.

So if you go with Intel CPU for notebook, you're better off going with nVidia for Optimus. And Intel has a lot bigger share of the market. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out

 

[formulav8]

There will still be a market for discreet lappy graphics that nvidia will be able to tap into, especially on the Intel side (As least for a while longer). Its obvious that the AMD side will already include a decent graphics solution so the mobile discreet graphics won't be as popular in that market. But there will always be those who want a higher-end gaming based laptop that nvidia can still cater to.

 

[lifeblood]

As I look into my crystal ball I am seeing harder (but NOT impossible) times for nVidia. Very soon we will see laptops with an AMD CPU/GPU combo (APU) plus a separate AMD GPU. For most work the APU graphics is fine without impacting battery life, then when you fire up a game the discreet GPU powers up providing an adative benefit (hybrid X-Fire). I really think this is one reason why AMD has been improving its X-Fire scaling performance this past year.

Initially nVidia will still be strong on Intel based laptops as the discreet GPU, but I bet at some point Intel will provide equivalent capabilities as AMD.

 

[Arkadrel]

It's not all that clear, at least for laptop:
AMD has PowerXpress and additive GPU+IGP performance on AMD platforms, and nothing on Intel. nVidia doesn't have additive GPU+IGP at all, and Optimus on Intel.

So if you go with Intel CPU for notebook, you're better off going with nVidia for Optimus. And Intel has a lot bigger share of the market. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out

AMD has BACO(N) (Based on a 'Bus Alive, Chip Off' technology) (+now! for comic releaf = bacon)
AKA:AMD PowerXpress 4.0 which is the same as Nvidia's Optimus.

Your not missing out on anything, going AMD.

As I look into my crystal ball I am seeing harder (but NOT impossible) times for nVidia. Very soon we will see laptops with an AMD CPU/GPU combo (APU) plus a separate AMD GPU. For most work the APU graphics is fine without impacting battery life, then when you fire up a game the discreet GPU powers up providing an adative benefit (hybrid X-Fire). I really think this is one reason why AMD has been improving its X-Fire scaling performance this past year.

Initially nVidia will still be strong on Intel based laptops as the discreet GPU, but I bet at some point Intel will provide equivalent capabilities as AMD.

See it the same way....
Hybrid Crossfire + AMD's version of Optimus = AMD is the best Laptop solution possible.
(take into fact also that AMD has performance/watt advantage over Nvidia)

Atleast for anything slower than 5770 level performance.
(which would be Llano + 6xxx lowend mobile card, in hybrid crossfire).

Intel+Nvidia will still be in laptops and be able to compete, because AMD doesnt have anything that can hybrid crossfire for more than 5770 level performance. It just means It wont make sense to buy lowend Intel+Nvidia laptops.

 

[iCyborg]

AMD has BACO(N) (Based on a 'Bus Alive, Chip Off' technology) (+now! for comic releaf = bacon)
AKA:AMD PowerXpress 4.0 which is the same as Nvidia's Optimus.

Your not missing out on anything, going AMD.

Didn't know about that, I see this was only announced a couple weeks ago with 0 products on the market right now. That would be pretty good for AMD if they get it out soon.

 

[Arkadrel]

Yeah its smart of them to develop it...
Its clear that AMD is going after the Laptop market's, with APUs and technologies like BACO(N).

why do I call it bacon? cuz it sounds so much more awesum than PowerExpres 4.0.

"Bus Alive, Chip off" just needs that old fasioned Now! BACON is easier to remember, and who wouldnt want some bacon with their laptop?

 

[Topweasel]

mmmmm. Bacon.

 

[OCGuy]

It isnt going to be AMD v nV. It is going to be AMD v Intel. And with Ivy coming out, who knows what kind of demand for AMD laptops there will be?

 

[IntelUser2000]

Intel+Nvidia will still be in laptops and be able to compete, because AMD doesnt have anything that can hybrid crossfire for more than 5770 level performance. It just means It wont make sense to buy lowend Intel+Nvidia laptops.

GT425M level is still in the lower end range for gaming performance. I think you are a bit optimistic on Llano there, but it'll be a decent value gaming laptop.

Too bad both Sandy Bridge graphics and Llano graphics are going to turn out lower performing than I expected. Nvidia will face much greater competition, but not enough.

 

[AtenRa]

AMD Fusion will only UP the IGP performance and Discrete cards will have to follow and raise there performance.

Low end APU Llano's IGP will have 160 Stream Processors with DDR-3 (I believe up to 1866MHz) and that's the same performance as AMD's HD6450.

Soon after Llano will be released, the first low end 28nm Discrete graphics cards will be introduced and Discrete GPUs will have the upper hand once again.

 

[FalseChristian]

Anything's gotta be better than Intel's GMA3000!

 

[tviceman]

If a consumer is buying a laptop to play games. they will want something better than an IGP or APU for graphics. That is the bottom line.

 

[Arkadrel]

If a consumer is buying a laptop to play games. they will want something better than an IGP or APU for graphics. That is the bottom line.

Not nessarly....

Gotta remember that people with laptops usually game at like 1280x1024 resolutions.

~Radeon 5570 level performance does okay with most games at 1280x1024.

Throw in hybrid crossfire (with a mobil card), and your around 5770 level performance. Which could be enough for most people? with a laptop.

 

[RobertPters77]

If they price Llano right, nvidia and intel will have a hard time competing. But I see llano could also screw over their OEM partner's aswell. If I have a choice of buying a LLano with HD5570 graphics already built in, or an Athlon x4 with a dedicated 5570. I'll buy the LLano because it's, A. one less part, B. power savings, C. It will probably be cheaper.

 

[podspi]

If they price Llano right, nvidia and intel will have a hard time competing. But I see llano could also screw over their OEM partner's aswell. If I have a choice of buying a LLano with HD5570 graphics already built in, or an Athlon x4 with a dedicated 5570. I'll buy the LLano because it's, A. one less part, B. power savings, C. It will probably be cheaper.

For laptops, that's preferable for the OEMs...

For card OEMs their cards actually become MORE attractive. Sure, Llano might be enough, but if it isn't you're definitely going to go for the AMD card now, since you'll be able to xfire it Very smart AMD...

 

[SickBeast]

This is a big deal for AMD. The ability to pair the integrated GPU with a discreet card is a fantastic idea.

Not only is this going to obliterate nVidia's market for low end GPUs, it's also going to give AMD a far more attractive platform.

It's going to be interesting to see how this all pans out.

 

[cotak13]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/...formance_than_Core_i_Sandy_Bridge.htmlBesides

"integrating high-performance graphics engine and Turbo Core technology, AMD will also promote so-called Dual Graphics technology, which will essentially be a CrossFireX capability for low-cost discrete and integrated graphics. Certain combinations of standalone graphics cards (code-named Whistler and Seymour) with integrated solutions will add up to 75% of graphics performance to systems. One of the messages that AMD wants to send is that while its discrete graphics cards provide additive performance with its platforms, Nvidia Corp.'s GeForce graphics cards do not provide additive performance on either AMD or Intel platforms.." (bold mine)

With Lucid's Virtu software bypassing Nvidia's Optimus lock on Intel, Nvidia is facing a laptop and mass market desktop OEM situation where it has no distinct competitive edge while AMD has a substantial competitive edge.

Don't see how Nvidia doesn't lose substantial OEM sales by this time next year.

Why else do you think Nvidia jump into ARM big time? They saw their market space closing in on them once intel refused to allow them to build chip set.

The sad part is while Nvidia's hyping their tegra and how they will beat x86 they keep getting their rear handed to them by other ARM vendors. Plus it's unlikely super powerful/power hungry ARM processors are going to find a market in mobile devices in the near future. Plus any phone or cell enabled tablets are going to want a all in one SoC with RF front end and baseband included (something nvidia doesn't have and likely will not be able to buy). And it's strange their stock's still double digit priced isn't it? I mean just look at how many snapdragon devices are near shipping vs how many tegra 2 devices? Most of the tegra 2 stuff are appearing in tablet which is still a huge question mark. As Apple is the tablet market right now.

Maybe they can pull a rabbit out of their hat but personally I don't see it being a big chance they can pull off their ARM vision. Once they reach a certain performance level they will face the 800 lb gorilla that's intel. And in the low end they are facing 1 dominant vendor who make their own chip, samsung who's new ARM SoC just kicked tegra rear big time, plus 3 other low power ARM vendors who all use the same (hence compatible) PVR GPU. Actually, isn't the majority of the ARM mobile space dominated by PVR GPU?

I know I wouldn't want to be the CEO of a company in that situation...

 

[Dark Shroud]

Intel can still use AMD mobile GPUs along side their on die GPU cores with the Lucid Logic Virtu technology. It can switch between the GPUs just like optimus only it also works on desktops. This software will work with both AMD & Nvidia hardware.

So yeah Nvidia is in trouble. Especially with AMD's Bobcat cores and Atom not only getting a die shrink but multi-core clusters because Microsoft & Facebook want those for their server farms instead of some type of ARM solution.

 

[Genx87]

If they price Llano right, nvidia and intel will have a hard time competing. But I see llano could also screw over their OEM partner's aswell. If I have a choice of buying a LLano with HD5570 graphics already built in, or an Athlon x4 with a dedicated 5570. I'll buy the LLano because it's, A. one less part, B. power savings, C. It will probably be cheaper.

Most people buy an Intel laptop with their integrated piece of crap. What changes in these people to buy a laptop for better graphics performance from AMD? This is what I dont quite get in the whole fusion idea. AMD is building a better performing graphics platform for a market that has clearly said they dont give a crap about graphics performance.

Also business world is a large consumer of these types of laptops. I havent bought a laptop since mine in Dec 09 that isnt Intel integrated. Why? Because we run office. Dont need a whole lot of graphics power to run word.

 

[Genx87]

Why else do you think Nvidia jump into ARM big time? They saw their market space closing in on them once intel refused to allow them to build chip set.

The sad part is while Nvidia's hyping their tegra and how they will beat x86 they keep getting their rear handed to them by other ARM vendors. Plus it's unlikely super powerful/power hungry ARM processors are going to find a market in mobile devices in the near future. Plus any phone or cell enabled tablets are going to want a all in one SoC with RF front end and baseband included (something nvidia doesn't have and likely will not be able to buy). And it's strange their stock's still double digit priced isn't it? I mean just look at how many snapdragon devices are near shipping vs how many tegra 2 devices? Most of the tegra 2 stuff are appearing in tablet which is still a huge question mark. As Apple is the tablet market right now.

Maybe they can pull a rabbit out of their hat but personally I don't see it being a big chance they can pull off their ARM vision. Once they reach a certain performance level they will face the 800 lb gorilla that's intel. And in the low end they are facing 1 dominant vendor who make their own chip, samsung who's new ARM SoC just kicked tegra rear big time, plus 3 other low power ARM vendors who all use the same (hence compatible) PVR GPU. Actually, isn't the majority of the ARM mobile space dominated by PVR GPU?

I know I wouldn't want to be the CEO of a company in that situation...

Tegra 2 was huge this year and many tablets will be powered by it. Honeycomb's hardware preference is Tegra 2. And this other company called Microsoft is releasing Windows 8 on ARM. Microsoft doesnt develope an alternate binary for their OS if they dont believe that platform is going to generate a return on investment. x86 is on the outside looking in as the market transitions to mobile and ultra mobile devices. Just look at the estimates of unit shipments and revenue for tablet\phones vs PCs. If Nvidia manages to capture a large enough marketshare. They will ship more processors than Intel.

 

[cotak13]

Tegra 2 was huge this year and many tablets will be powered by it. Honeycomb's hardware preference is Tegra 2. And this other company called Microsoft is releasing Windows 8 on ARM. Microsoft doesnt develope an alternate binary for their OS if they dont believe that platform is going to generate a return on investment. x86 is on the outside looking in as the market transitions to mobile and ultra mobile devices. Just look at the estimates of unit shipments and revenue for tablet\phones vs PCs. If Nvidia manages to capture a large enough marketshare. They will ship more processors than Intel.

A lot of IFs and Microsoft has multiple times made OSes for architecture that didn't pan out and didn't make much money. Big companies with big war chest have the luxury of hedging their bets. And ARM windows != Tegra ARM. So don't take microsoft running a small experiment as prove for anything. It's just an experiment for the time being and by the time it's usable for tablets I think Apple and Android will have already eaten MS's lunch in that market.

Estimates for shipment is just that estimates. So far no one's making much money from tablets except for Apple. As for phones, do you honestly think a quad core SoC is necessary? Or even desired considering the battery capacity that can be crammed into a phone? On my iphone 4 I thought I'd need a giant dataplan but it turns out I 1) only use it when I am not doing anything else and 2) run out of battery more often than data cap. Personally, a dual core is about all I think I'll ever need for a phone until they solve the tiny screen and short battery life problem.

As for tablet Even Anand and his staff's been having trouble getting themselves to use the tablet. They made it quite clear they just couldn't find enough use for it. So lets not jump to conclusion that tegra and the whole mobile ARM to desktop ARM dream is a forgone conclusion. It's not. I have the cash to buy an ipad. I would be called an Apple fan having a 27 inch imac and a MBP. But I just can't see myself using the ipad for more than a week before I do what Anand did and leave it docked at my desk waiting for something I can use it for. At almost 600 bucks I don't see many average person can justify it vs upgrading their laptop or desktop. Think about it, to keep up with the newest computer, smart phone and tablet you are looking at 600 for a phone and 600 for a tablet plus I guess what 1000 to 2000 for a computer? That's 2200 to 3200 bucks a year. Our standard of living isn't jumping that rapidly.

 

[OCGuy]

This is a big deal for AMD. The ability to pair the integrated GPU with a discreet card is a fantastic idea.

Not only is this going to obliterate nVidia's market for low end GPUs, it's also going to give AMD a far more attractive platform.

It's going to be interesting to see how this all pans out.

Again, you are assuming AMD will sell CPUs. History tells me, that even if they have a superior product (P4 era), they still wont break their marketshare ceiling. And no signs are pointing to BD being superior to Sandy and/or Ivy.

If you are talking about a couple of AMD die-hards pairing discreet + fusion, then nV isn't really losing a sale anyway...

 

[Gloomy]

It's not like AMD CPUs were paired with NV GPUs all that often anyway, at least not in the laptop market. I don't think I have EVER seen that combination. These pairings don't pose much of a threat to NV at all. They pose a threat to Intel first and foremost, and NV only after they start to gain marketshare...

They have to sell CPUs before they start pairing them with GPUs, you dig?

 

[wahdangun]

Most people buy an Intel laptop with their integrated piece of crap. What changes in these people to buy a laptop for better graphics performance from AMD? This is what I dont quite get in the whole fusion idea. AMD is building a better performing graphics platform for a market that has clearly said they dont give a crap about graphics performance.

Also business world is a large consumer of these types of laptops. I havent bought a laptop since mine in Dec 09 that isnt Intel integrated. Why? Because we run office. Dont need a whole lot of graphics power to run word.

what??? even my friend who doesn't know anything about computer, don't want anything from intel crap. and don't let me started on their horrible driver. they all even chose amd for lower performance but have superior graphic.