Here is the Nov 14 Log.
We will post the Nov 17 log in a few days. Enjoy!
[6:52pm] Kubicki made this room moderated for normal users.
[6:52pm] Topic changed to "Welcome (Back) to the ASUS Forum" by Kubicki.
[6:59pm] Ste_su: hi Anand
[6:59pm] Ste_su: shall we start?
[7:00pm] ASUS_RD was promoted to operator by Kubicki.
[7:00pm] Ronin was granted voice by Kubicki.
[7:00pm] Anand: Stephanie, yes we are ready to start, please go ahead and introduce everyone from ASUS
[7:01pm] ASUS_RD: Hello everybody, It's george chen from ASUS RDMB1.
[7:02pm] Anand: Hello George, could you briefly describe to the channel what you do at ASUS?
[7:03pm] ASUS_RD: I'm MB1 tead leader who 's in charge of some Intel & 3rd party based motherboard.
[7:04pm] Anand: George, thanks for joining. We've got a number of questions for you from our readership, so let's go ahead and get started.
[7:04pm] Anand: Here's the first question:
[7:04pm] Anand: The move to Intel's LGA-775 socket was originally rejected by a number of motherboard manufacturers, citing high failure rates and lots of risk of end user damage. Now that the transition to
LGA-775 is complete, and with the possibility that AMD may be using a similar style of socket in the future, can you let us know a bit about how the new socket has held up from ASUS' perspective? Have socket
failures been any higher or lower than before, or have failure rates remained fairly unchanged?
[7:05pm] ASUS_RD: I never heard from AMD that they will use the simular mechnism as LGA775, at least not heard so far
[7:05pm] Anand: I believe the question stems from some pictures of Socket-F that were floating around a couple of weeks ago, which showed it to be an LGA based socket
[7:06pm] Anand: That part of the question aside, how have the LGA based sockets held up? Were the concerns about high failure rates overstated?
[7:07pm] sharon was granted voice by Kubicki.
[7:07pm] ASUS_RD: As we know its RMA rate is not so large as you thought.
[7:08pm] Anand: How does it compare to the older Socket-478 sockets?
[7:08pm] Anand: What the question is getting at, is from a motherboard manufacturer (and end user's) standpoint: was the move to LGA for better or worse?
[7:09pm] ASUS_RD: Of cource RMA rate get higher but user get smarter, right?
[7:09pm] Anand: Very true, so you're saying that RMA rates went up with the LGA sockets, but users eventually adapted to it and the rates dropped?
[7:09pm] Anand: Looking at the RMA rates due to socket failures today, are they higher or lower than before?
[7:10pm] ASUS_RD: I think whoever Intel or AMD use LGA socket is due to the astonishing pin count number.
[7:10pm] Anand: Absolutely, I agree that there are electrical benefits from using it, my question is simply whether or not there have been any side effects of it
[7:12pm] Kubicki: When we were in Taiwan a few weeks ago, a few of the manufacturers claimed that LGA775 really didnt have the defect rates that originally everyone anticipated
[7:12pm] Anand: Kris, yeah that is what I had been thinking - but the thing is that the information of high defect rates came directly from the motherboard manufacturers
[7:12pm] sharon was promoted to operator by Kubicki.
[7:12pm] Anand: I just want some accountability for information
[7:13pm] Kubicki: The thing is though, they get the initial reports from us, the reviewers, but the majority of the users don't interchange processors. When AMD makes the leap to LGA1207, the server market w
ould change chips even less
[7:14pm] Anand: Very true, for the server market LGA doesn't really have much of an impact, as they do hardly ever touch those sockets
[7:14pm] Anand: Rather than talk about the exciting world of sockets for much longer, let's move onto the second question
[7:14pm] Anand: When AMD moved their memory controller on die, the market was concerned that two players would inevitably suffer: the chipset makers and the motherboard makers. Has AMD's on-die memory contro
ller driven the manufacturing cost of motherboards down at all? If so, by what percentage or dollar value?
[7:16pm] ASUS_RD: Actually it has no affect to MB's cost & size & ..., except better memory performance
[7:16pm] Anand: Very interesting, so there's no cost benefits at all - why is that? Simply because of the fact that you still have to purchase a chipset from a 3rd party and routing is still quite intensive?
[7:18pm] ASUS_RD: Because What we have to do is not fewer than Intel based mb
[7:18pm] Anand: makes sense
[7:18pm] Anand: Let's change gears a bit and pick your brain about Intel's next-generation microprocessors
[7:18pm] ASUS_RD: Memory slot, memory power circuit, memory termination, decoupleing caps,.... nothing lacks
[7:19pm] Anand: By now, ASUS has had Intel's first generation 65nm chips in house for a while, have there been any issues enabling support for Presler and Cedar Mill in your boards?
[7:20pm] ASUS_RD: In our experiments, Now only Intel 975/955/945 base board & some 3rd party board can support Cedarmill & Presler
[7:20pm] Anand: Are all ASUS 975/955/945 based boards able to support Cedar Mill and Presler?
[7:21pm] ASUS_RD: Yes, except for presler extreme edition (Only 975 support)
[7:21pm] Kubicki: An interesting fact I picked up from another company in Taiwan was that all 865 and 875 boards are also capable of dual core support, even Cedarmill/Preseler. Good luck trying to find a LGA
775 socket though
[7:22pm] Anand: I am curious as to why only the 975 chipset will support Presler Extreme Edition, isn't Presler EE just the same as Presler but with Hyper Threading enabled? In which case, what keeps it from
working on 955/945?
[7:22pm] ASUS_RD: Yes ASUS P5P800 SE (865 series) can support, too (I forgot to mention)
[7:23pm] Kubicki: For those of you paying attention at home - it seems like our Intel guys had to bail. We are going to bust out some AMD questions now
[7:23pm] ASUS_RD: Intel had some revising for Presler EE CPU, it used some original original & GND pins.
7:24pm] Anand: ah interesting, so it may not be electrically compatible with the regular Presler then
[7:24pm] Anand: Speaking of more interesting CPUs: Does ASUS plan to release a desktop motherboard with support for Yonah next year?
[7:24pm] Tuan was granted voice by Kubicki.
[7:25pm] ASUS_RD: I think"YES", you should be able to see our Yonah product in Q1 next year
[7:25pm] Anand: Do you have any specifics you can share with us today? Chipset, target price, what timeframe for availability?
[7:26pm] Anand: I'm sure our readers would love to see an enthusiast oriented Yonah motherboard from ASUS next year
[7:26pm] ASUS_RD: I guess on Feb 2006, with 945GM chipset
[7:28pm] Kubicki: Those of you not familiar with 945GM might want to take a look at some of our more recent insider articles. 945GM is essentially 945G with support for SODIMM DDR2. A DDR2 version dubbed 945
GT is also on the way.
[7:28pm] Anand: What about support for Conroe? What ASUS motherboards in Q1 next year will support Intel's next-generation microprocessors?
[7:30pm] ASUS_RD: We have not received Conroe CPU sample yet, I am not sure what chipset can support it or not, Try out best...
[7:30pm] Anand: hmm, maybe we should loan you one?
[7:30pm] ASUS_RD: At least Broadwater could support it!!
[7:30pm] Anand: As we talk about next-generation microprocessors, can you give us an update on AMD's Socket M2
[7:30pm] ASUS_RD: Please....we would love to...
[7:30pm] Anand: How far along is ASUS on the development of Socket M2 motherboards? Has AMD provided you with CPUs yet?
[7:31pm] ASUS_RD: We already have some project on going now, sure we have M2 sample now.
[7:32pm] Anand: How is the sample looking and running, can you tell us what clock speed it is running at?
[7:32pm] Anand:
[7:34pm] ASUS_RD: We get some sample with 2400~2600MHz CPU sample now, maybe have 2800 CPU, I have to check internally after guys in office.
[7:34pm] Anand: What DDR2 speeds are supported on those samples?
[7:35pm] ASUS_RD: AMD's suggestion is DDR2-667 now,
[7:35pm] Anand: and those M2 samples are still pin based and not LGA style processors, correct?
[7:35pm] ASUS_RD: Yes, 940 pin but not same with Opteron 940.
[7:36pm] Anand: That's what we've been hearing as well
[7:36pm] ASUS_RD: It looks not more special than original 939 CPU.
[7:36pm] Anand: from a performance standpoint or just physically looks identical to the current CPUs?
[7:38pm] Kubicki: If anyone would like to pose a question to George, please feel free to msg me and I'll relay it to him.
[7:39pm] ASUS_RD: We have no comparison data yet on performance.
[7:39pm] Anand: Well thanks for the update on AMD's Socket M2.
[7:39pm] Anand: The next question up from our readers deals with the future of motherboard manufacturing in general.
[7:40pm] Kubicki: asdfasd
[7:40pm] Anand: What new developments do you see in the future in terms of motherboards, in terms of audio and power supplies (such as your own 8 phase power) specifically?
[7:42pm] Kubicki: George, one of our readers asks:
[7:42pm] Kubicki: I would like to know if there is any benefit/downfall to the heatpipe integration on the northbride chipset, and if we will see more of it as a noiseless competitor
[7:43pm] ASUS_RD: Currently We will still keep using 8 phase power regulator, We'll take more efforts on thermal & accoustic design.
[7:45pm] ASUS_RD: I think Heatpink is really helpful on thermal & accoustic, but it's really too expensive..., it's a trade off, you know...
[7:45pm] Anand: George, approximately how much does it add to the end price of a motherboard?
[7:46pm] ASUS_RD: And heatpipe takes 3 month to finish design, not only money, but also time.
[7:46pm] Kubicki: George, jbond04 writes:
[7:46pm] Kubicki: What are Asus' plans regarding the BTX formfactor? Is Intel still pushing this initiative, or has it subsided due to a new focus on performance/watt?
[7:47pm] ASUS_RD: Depends on boards. But we still treats it a great design to solve thermal and noise problems
[7:47pm] Anand: George, approximately what percentage of ASUS' total shipments do you expect to be BTX in the first half of next year?
[7:48pm] ASUS_RD: So we will still keep using it on performance boards with high power consumption...(like n company chipset....)
[7:48pm] Anand: George, are you talking about heatpipes?
[7:49pm] ASUS_RD: Personally I don't believe BTX will become mainstream. I estimate not more than 5% (Personally not ASUS strategy )
[7:49pm] Anand: I tend to agree with you
[7:49pm] Kubicki: Hi everyone, we are going to give George just a few more questions now - but don't worry - we will have another session a 6PM EST on Thursday, Nov 17
[7:50pm] Kubicki: A funny thing occured when Anand and I were at Computex 06... even Intel wasn't pushing the BTX motherboards
[7:50pm] Anand: George, I will actually hold off on the questions until next time - thank you for your time with us here tonight.
[7:50pm] Anand: Unfortunately folks we are going to have to end tonight's chat now, but there will be another one on the 17th at 6PM EST. Questions that we didn't get to tonight will be tackled then along wi
th some others from two of our motherboard editors, Wesley Fink and Gary Key.
[7:50pm] Anand: Thanks for hanging in there with us and we'll continue this on Thursday.
[7:51pm] ASUS_RD: Thank you everybody
[7:51pm] Kubicki: Thank you very much George - we look forward to hearing again from you later this week!
[7:51pm] Anand: Have a good evening everyone, thanks again for hanging in there
[7:51pm] Kubicki: We are going to open the channel up to a little bit of open discussion for a while. Please thank George!
[7:52pm] Kubicki made this room no longer moderated for normal users.
[7:52pm] Sunrise08: thank you Anand and George
[7:52pm] SLCentral: Thanks George, really appreciate your time
[7:52pm] jbond04: Thanks again for your time, George!
[7:52pm] Tu13es: Thanks George, Kris, Anand, et. al!
[7:52pm] crackel: thanks alot, very interesting info
[7:52pm] ASUS_RD: Thank again!
[7:52pm] SLCentral: As well as Anand, Kris, and everyone else a part of this
[7:52pm] Keith: Cheers George
[7:52pm] Anand: So give us some feedback
[7:52pm] theman: thanks!
[7:52pm] Timberdoo: thanks to anand and thanks to the engineers
[7:52pm] ASUS_RD: See you next time!
[7:52pm] Timberdoo: also thank you kubicki
============================
(The rest of this log is the follow up conversation between Anand, Kristopher and you guys).
[7:52pm] jbond04: Spill your guts about Conroe, Anand!
[7:52pm] jbond04: You have a sample?!!
[7:52pm] Kubicki: Those of you who didn't get your questions in, please drop them into the forum thread found here:
http://labs.anandtech.com/asusforum.php
[7:52pm] Sunrise08: hopefully next time we can have a chat without idiots trying to spam it
[7:53pm] guest7978: appreciate it, have a good evening
[7:53pm] SLCentral: Anand, I liked the chat, though I think the time between questions was a bit too long to really keep me "on the edge of my seat." Perhaps when Intel is in the chat (next time?) this will b
e different
[7:53pm] Anand: hehe, I was hoping George would do the spilling for us
[7:53pm] TuansBud: It was great -- hopefully ASUS will have a chance to answer that question about the custom-case and custom-formfactor
[7:53pm] Anand: SLCentral, I agree, I'll see what we can do about shortening that time
[7:53pm] SLCentral: Anand, okay, no worries, just a small suggestion
[7:53pm] Anand: Did you all get anything out of the questions? How'd you like the M2 information?
[7:53pm] SLCentral: Very interesting stuff, to say the last
[7:53pm] Sunrise08: Anand: what happened to the Intel rep? Did they actually have a problem or did they just decided they didn't care?
[7:53pm] Furen: are you guys going to post a transcript of the whole thing? just joined like 10 mins ago...
[7:53pm] SLCentral: least*
[7:53pm] Timberdoo: I agree with SLCentral, too much time in between questions, the integration of us is a good idea though
[7:54pm] Kubicki: Sunrise08
[7:54pm] Anand: They definitely cared and wanted to attend, but unfortunately their time alloted was between 6 and 7PM EST, so we will have them back next chat
[7:54pm] Sunrise08: ok, I understand then
[7:54pm] Timberdoo: I dont get what the "8 phase power regulator" was about
[7:54pm] SLCentral: Damn spammers
[7:54pm] Anand: Next time it'll go smoother
[7:54pm] guest8475: i need to know more about M2
[7:54pm] Anand: What would you like to know?
[7:55pm] Kubicki: timberdoo, ASUS has an 8 channel series power regulation on their new boards. Let me pull a link up for you real quick.
[7:55pm] Kubicki:
http://anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2589&p=2
[7:55pm] Gamingphr: Anand, why, if DDR2 consumes less power than DDR would M2 be rumored to have a higher TDP? Is it the logic required?
[7:55pm] guest8475: i would like to know whether we are going to see diminishing returns when trying to OC on a board that is already utilising a very high HTT
[7:55pm] Sunrise08: I would like to know (about M2) exactly what you asked: are there performance gains - it seems like a lot of us are AMD fans here, but all of the excitement has been about Yonah and Conroe
[7:55pm] guest9901: I read about that 8 channel power regulator, I think its the best in the business at the moment
[7:56pm] theman: yeah, i would like to know about overclocking potential on M2
[7:56pm] Anand: I don't believe that DDR2 is necessarily going to consume less power than DDR1 as far as the on-die memory controller goes
[7:56pm] Anand: the memory has a lower operating voltage, but that doesn't really affect the power consumption on the CPU side
[7:56pm] SLCentral: I do think Yonah will be very interesting though, especially how Apple uses Yonah
[7:56pm] Kubicki: the interesting thing about their power regulator is it is a true serial design. some of the other designs are in parrallel which relaly only help for redundancy
[7:57pm] Anand: I would say that overclocking potential on the M2 should be no different than on the current Athlon 64s
[7:57pm] Tu13es: it mig have been helpful to have a few links to read to "prepare" for this chat, a lot of what was discussed I'm not too educated on yet
[7:57pm] guest9901: yeah, they said that the regulators actually help the processors cooler somehow
[7:57pm] Anand: very good point Tu13es
[7:57pm] Gamingphr: Oh! Thanks!
[7:57pm] SLCentral: What's the ETA on the M2? Was that discussed?
[7:57pm] Anand: I'll see if we can have some background reading for next time
[7:57pm] Tu13es: thanks
[7:58pm] Kubicki: gues9901 - i do agree with you there, i don't know how that would help the CPU run cooler. I do know the mosfets they use are slightly cooler than the ones used on the GBT motherboard, but
yeah...
[7:58pm] crackel: i would like to have heard more abou the rumored integrated pci-x controller on M2
[7:58pm] guest8475: Anand: .. will we still be able to attain high overclocks on the new M2 platform .. will we be hindered by the already high HTT????
[7:58pm] Gamingphr: PCI-X...you mean PCX/PCI-E
[7:58pm] Anand: George didn't provide us with an ETA on M2, but if they already have samples running at 2.4 - 2.6GHz then it's pretty far along
[7:58pm] Sunrise08: editors: since this chat seems to have been well recieved, even with the issues, after this series is completed, are there any plans for others? I would love to see an AMD and DFI chat, an
d even better an NVIDIA and ATI chat.
[7:58pm] Anand: I wouldn't hold your breath about on-die PCIe
[7:58pm] guest8475: ohh already answered my Q
[7:59pm] guest8475: thanks
[7:59pm] Kubicki: Sunrise08: Definitely. We already have several manufacturers lined up.
[7:59pm] SLCentral: Excellent, glad to hear, Kris
[7:59pm] Tuan was promoted to operator by Kubicki.
[7:59pm] Anand: remember, there are only 940 pins for M2, and that includes a DDR2 memory controller which already takes up more pins than the DDR1 controller on the current 939 CPUs
[7:59pm] Timberdoo: thank you Kubicki
[7:59pm] theman: yes, thats a good point
[7:59pm] Tu13es: I'd like to hear from an AMD rep in addition to Intel
[7:59pm] Anand: so there are physically not enough pins for a x16 PCIe interface
[8:00pm] SLCentral: Why would the PCIe need to be on-die?
[8:00pm] guest8475: so when will see 65nm and quad cores .. also when will we see the benefits of quad cores or is this just going to be aimed at the server platform
[8:00pm] jbond04: Interesting...so where did the other pins go? Or where there extra pins in there for headroom/future expansion?
[8:00pm] Kubicki: Anand, true - but recall that many of the 939 pins were already unused. I don't expect a PCIe controller on M2, but maybe Socket F
[8:00pm] Sunrise08: one thing that impressed me was how candid the ASUS rep was - I meen there wasnt anything earth shattering said ASAIK, but it seemed to be pretty honest feedback, not marketing speak like
I feared would happen.
[8:00pm] jbond04: nevermind...Kris answered it
[8:00pm] Anand: Yeah, Fred Weber told me a while back that the original Socket-940 CPUs had about 10% more pins than they needed
[8:01pm] Anand: I still don't think that's enough to account for a PCIe controller + DDR2, but you are correct, Socket F could have it
[8:01pm] Anand: (I still don't think that it'd happen on Socket-F either though)
[8:01pm] guest8475: kris: yes thats true kris .. because although people were breaking the pins off, the processors still worked. most of them were just grounding pins
[8:01pm] crackel: anand: I have the chat log if you need it
[8:01pm] Kubicki: guest8475: The launch date for Yonah is early January. That is the first 65nm chip. Quad core seems too far out right now
[8:01pm] Anand: 65nm quad core will probably end up being 2007 for AMD
[8:02pm] Tu13es: mm...quad core...*drools*
[8:02pm] Anand: you may see a 2006 launch from Intel, but it'd be late 2006 if at all
[8:02pm] Anand: and these would of course be server parts
[8:02pm] Anand: Sunrise08 - that's what talking to most motherboard manufacturers is like actually, they are very straight and to the point
[8:02pm] sp33d: That was very good
[8:02pm] Anand: which is why we love going to Taiwan so much
[8:03pm] SLCentral: Take me
[8:03pm] Tu13es: what exactly is in Taiwan?
[8:03pm] sp33d: Now, when do you expect to see multi-core graphics cards out?
[8:03pm] theman: everything
[8:03pm] Furen: ...
[8:03pm] Kubicki: Tu13es, almost all of the manufacturers for these companies are HQ'ed in Taiwan
[8:03pm] Furen: nothing much, just all the motherboard manufacturers
[8:03pm] sp33d: I realize there are multi processor ones out (Gigabyte made a dual 6600GT)
[8:03pm] SLCentral: sp33d, well they already have two 7800gt's on one board, not quite multi-core, but close
[8:03pm] Tu13es: fair enough
[8:03pm] sp33d: But how about multi core?
[8:03pm] Anand: sp33d - multicore graphics is essentially here today
[8:03pm] sp33d: I realize SLI
[8:03pm] guest8475: do i need to have an IRC plug-in to change my name to my internet alias .. aka RichUK
[8:03pm] sp33d: And DSLI
[8:04pm] sp33d: no
[8:04pm] jbond04: yeah...each "quad" is like a core on graphics cards
[8:04pm] sp33d: "/nick"
[8:04pm] guest8475: instead of using a guest login
[8:04pm] Anand: jbond04 has got the right idea
[8:04pm] SLCentral: sp33d, the CPU is already a bottleneck, so theres no real need for multi-core just yet
[8:04pm] sp33d: But since we now can get standalone physics processors...
[8:04pm] sp33d: Won't a fair amount of the load be taken off of the CPU?
[8:04pm] guest8475: r520 has the ability to be a physics processr
....
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