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List of Video Cards and Monitors without big brother inside

T

thestain

Senior member
I was looking over the specs of the new HD 3000 series of Graphics cards from AMD and the 9000 series from nVidia and it appears that not some, not most, but virtually all cards will come with DRM engines of some kind, with HDCP, with AACS, etc..

If anyone comes across a new video card or Monitor that does not have DRM (Digital Rights Management), that does not have HDCP (High Definition Content Protection), that does not have AACS (Advanced Access Content System)please share.

Our rights to ownership over both hardware and software have been under attack for sometime. There are Cartels of powerful Corporations, such as the Trusted Computing Group or Alliance that are behind much of this. Intel developed HDCP. Microsoft is a big part of it and has been including anti individual ownership and fair use items in its software for several years now. The influence of Microsoft, of Intel of Sony, and other very large Corporations has become so pervasive, that the United States Senate voted to systematically strip individual freedoms when it voted in favor of the DMCA 99-0. Jay Rockefeller did not vote.

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States copyright law which implements two 1996 WIPO treaties. It criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services that are used to circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works (commonly known as DRM) and criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, even when there is no infringement of copyright itself. It also heightens the penalties for copyright infringement on the Internet. It was passed on October 12, 1998 by a unanimous vote in the United States Senate and signed into law by President Bill Clinton on October 28, 1998. The details of this law have made it very difficult for companies not to bend the knee to it and include all this in both the hardware and software industries. It has also created barriers to entry to compete with the Big Corporations and paved the way to an end to many of the innovations and start up companies we once saw due to these various barriers and the way it is interpreted and applied and in conjuntion with other legislation that has been passed since, it makes it virtually illegal to go against controls that the Big Corporations desire to place on all of us. Yes, even the Big Corporations must comply and put things like HDCP and AACS in hardware or risk not being in compliance and a loss of business.. All new CPU's have DRM of some kind in them now as well.

It is my opinion that DRM would have been illegal in the United States twenty years ago, how far has this nation and the world we live in gone to strip individuals of their freedoms in an effort to protect big corporations? Many of the laws that have promoted this technology were passed by landslide votes. Remember that these various things done to stop piracy and protect content have been done at the expense of your freedom to own and control what you own and your ownership rights over many things will be diminished as a result of what is taking place. The thinking on this issue of many does not compute.

Think of it.. this is not about copyright protection, it is not about stopping piracy, it is about control, it is about taking away the ownership rights of all individuals so that Corporations and Governments can and will assume greater control over matters and usher in a totalitarian state devoid of protections for the freedoms the common man and common woman. Instead of thinking of how one can bend the knee to the New Overlords, shouldn't one ask for help, find a way not to lose ones freedoms?

Do any of our representatives care about protecting Americans liberties and freedoms anymore?

The Founding fathers of the United States knew the importance of a need to constantly defend freedoms. They knew that the moment you give up freedom for security you lose both. Even Flash player from Adobe has removed control over settings from us in that we have to go to their website to make changes..

Are there any Thomas Jeffersons or George Orwells out there still to raise the alarm and... to be pragmatic, is there any way to stop this, to not buy in, to be able to choose something else.. whatever happened to the freedom to choose?

As people share what Monitors and Video Cards are DRM free, I will endeavor to begin and update these list that are so far blank... focus is on GeForce 8800 and Radeon HD 3000 series or later video cards.

Thank you.

The Stain
 
Ok, I understand how you see the HDCP/DRM as something illegal.

But, I don't see why you would NOT want it? It does not REDUCE any sort of functionality of said hardware
 
Why should there have been a need for the trade off between us individual software and hardware purchasers and users losing control in return for continuing to be able to enjoy the benefits of new technology been needed to be made to begin with?

It is this trade off that concerns me.

Without the choice to buy hardware or software without the various controls placed in them by others, we can no longer participate in the benefits of new technology without giving up some or most ultimate control over that hardware and software. We no longer have control, but others do as to whether the software or hardware works and rather than being free to really own these various items and to have a clear and quiet title to it, we are now at best renters, serfs, and the ultimate control over all these various devices is and will be in someone elses hands.

As an example, consider if we relied upon an artificial heart to live.

Up until the late 1990's, no worries we could upgrade components and replace the whole heart if needed with control being ours as to whether it worked or not. When previously we could not be as active.. we could do more and more..

Well today.. new technology promises us the ability to not only walk, but to run.. to hike and to swim when we could not do so before.. but now.. there is this cost.. as one example look at the "Trusted" group of companies or Cartel behind the DMCA, HDCP, AACS and other forms of Digital Rights Management. Lets say our hearts were run by digital devices. They can access and make root level changes to our hearts if we buy into the next technology that will allow us to do more and more.. this could be risky.. what if Sony uses a rootkit legally now to increase my heart rate or decrease it.. what if Intel or AMD decides that my heart is not licensed to run anymore.. then my life would be in real jeapardy wouldn't it??

This is my point.. why the trade off, why is it needful or necessary to deny us access to parts of technology we buy, and at the same time grant access to these areas to others and in so doing take away our quiet title to this technology?

We are losing freedom. We are losing ownership.. with these various implementions into our hardware and software, our rights, our digital rights are threatened and will be controled by others.. that is what DRM is all about.

All these things being added to hardware and software shift control over devices we previously had quiet title to control and be free from others controlling, to whoever has access to them through the various control technologies and in most, if not all cases, while hundreds of Corporations and Government agencies can alter and control root level or root minus one memory or devices on our pcs, we are not allowed even access to some of the areas on our technologies under things like DMCA, DRM, HDCP and AACS. Yes.. for moment.. it does not currently interfere with many of benefits of new technology, but.. it has taken title to our devices, ownership and control out of our hands and entrusted others who we do not know and who have not earned our trust to control things we previously were able to have the last say on.

Instead of protecting its citizens against an abuse of power and usurped control over software and hardware by various groups in the name of content protection, many so-called representatives have turned a blind eye toward individual freedom and instead embarked on a course to eventually make it illegal to resist the loss of freedoms and control and ownership over technology by individuals. Our Digital Rights are lost when we allow others to manage them. Make no mistake, when you see HDCP or DRM or AACS as included on the video card.. on its very Graphics processing unit and under other names on the Central Processing Unit of your computer and in the Operating System.. Your Digital rights are no longer your own.

The Stain
 
Can anyone think of any new Video cards without some sort of DRM, please share:

Yes we are all sheep in some way, but.. where the hell are our Governing Shephards to protect us against those who would usurp powers over our Digital rights? Oops.. covered that already.. they did vote 99-0 in the Senate to take the rights away didn' they?

Also.. This DRM thing.. another attempt to illustrate.. say you just bought your own home, but it is a fixer upper and due to where you live.. always in need of upgrades.. you do all your work there.. you live there.. like some of us do on or through our pcs.. now all of a sudden to get the best equipment.. it comes with a catch.. you need to allow those providing the software or hardware to cut up your home a little to make room for a couple control rooms that you won't have access to. They also get their own entrances and.. you are not allowed access to these rooms. One Control room might be given access to one group and another room to another all without your having a say and once in, those with access can control all sorts of your property from the TV to the Plumbing to whether you were allowed to turn on or off certain appliances and those with access could have access to anywhere in your house anytime they wanted.. No more quiet enjoyment of your property.

If you wanted to improve where you live, should you have to put up with this? Yet this is exactly what we are putting up with when we are forced to buy tech with DRM inside. Some will say, if you don't like it.. don't buy it.. but.. what are the options, since now, all the new video cards, cpu's etc.. have some sort of Digital Rights removal mechanisms included to add that control room to your pc or cell phone or other digital device and enable whoever controls the DRM to control your digital rights.

Technology is being polluted by this.. yes.. on the surface tech appears to be getting better.. yes there are some wonderful, incredible things we can buy and enjoy with each new generation of technology, but now we are being forced to give up our Digital Rights to do so.

The Stain
 
Instead of protecting its citizens against an abuse of power and usurped control over software and hardware by various groups in the name of content protection, many so-called representatives have turned a blind eye toward individual freedom and instead embarked on a course to eventually make it illegal to resist the loss of freedoms and control and ownership over technology by individuals.
Click to expand...

Do you realize how Marxist that sounds? I wouldn't point it out except for the fact that you are doing it under the call for 'freedom'- which it appears by your definition is totalitarian control over the private sector from regulators. You are absolutely free to not buy anything you don't want to if you don't like DRM. If the government and the, err, 'cartel' were honestly in some sort of conspiracy you would not have that option.

As far as high end consumer computer gear that lacks DRM- what are you planning on tryng to do with it exactly? Every game released nowadays has a differing form of DRM, as does all media that requires such hardware along with the overwhelming majority of productivity software.

The reason you can't find what you are asking for is there is no consumer demand for it. You think there is, get people behind you and ask nV/AMD/NEC/Matsushita for the hardware and if people feel the way you do I can assure you they will make it.
 
Baa, baa BenSkyWalker...

Me thinks you amuse yourself with your double talk. Is it Marxist to want freedom? Do those who want freedom favor totalitarian control over the private sector? I don't think so. If no need for laws, then why make it illegal for regular citizens to undo controls placed upon them by the private sector? The DMCA legalizes Digital Rights being stripped from you and me and given to these overlords of the Private Sector, but also to some big Government agencies as well.

DRM is a little more than many might think. Have you seen those Camera's patrolling intersections with Stop Lights? Well DRM goes well beyond that.. it would be like in regards to traffic control, including sensors in cars to report back every time spedometer exceeded posted speed, or ran a red light or whatever.. and more.. if somehow some part of sensor communication chain of command not in compliance.. it could disable car from operating at all.. and maybe while you are still in it?? That is what DRM is doing. Error is that people are led to believe unless all DRM in a row, it can't really take away our rights, but.. there are already cases of TV's and Monitors not working because somehow the hdcp key got revoked, etc.. even reviews of new games are having trouble taking screen shot pictures.. yes the PrtScrn loophole to content protection is being closed. Why the need for these controls? Heck.. I know more than one persons pc that was screwed up by DRM in a game they loaded.. and several people who never were able to overcome drm related errors in installing games they bought and paid for. Then there are those who lost the ability to play all there games by some drm infestation from just one. DRM is being promoted openly by those who want to rob us of our freedoms. So much is misleading, such as various sites lobbying for real hdcp, because Microsoft or the Entertainment industry said we could not watch HD content without it. Why not the flip side.. M$ and the Entertainment Industry cannot put DRM into products or the US and European Governments will not let them sell their products??

Digital Rights Management does not trust you or me with the rights we once had and instead endeavors to hand over these rights to others, many without our knowledge and certainly without our ability to do anything about it.

Now would such tech stop the demand for cars?? No. People still need cars, just like they think need video cards, but.. it would be nice to have an option to not have the bad guys surveliance and control equipment on board, wouldn't it?

BAD, bad,.. black sheep.

The Stain

 
Being some sort of Libertarian / Socialist hybrid is all well and good... in college. DRM has in no way affected the day to day fair use of my media. I still make copies of my DVD's and CD's to prevent the originals being scratched. I can still create MP3's of my CD's and I'm using Vista, which according "teh internets", should prevent me from using my computer to do pretty much anything.

Frankly I love DRM. DRM allows my local library to download digital audiobooks that I can listen to at work. If the publisher had no way of ensuring the file became inactive after a certain period of time they would never allow such distribution and I'd have to pay like $60 a pop for that kind of content. Yeah, I don't want DRM to screw up how I enjoy my digital media, but at the same people have the right to protect their intellectual property.
 
DRM is ok, but the DRM everyone uses, the ones that screw everything up (SecuROM owes me about 10 hours of my life) is not.

Protecting your property is ok as long as it does not destroy the functionality of the hardware.
 
hmmm

to surfsatwork.. it sure seems that if the intent of Digital Rights Management is to protect intellectual property was working, you probably would not be able to get this property without paying something to the author and creator of it. Since you apparantly get it for free, this appears to be stealing to me.

I am troubled by what I see happening..

I see lots of smoke and mirrors.. the ability for all of us to fully buy and enjoy technology is coming to an end and may have already come to an end for many of us.

Yes you can buy the cpu and video card, you can take it home, but when it comes down to it, its very operation and the operation of your entire pc system is now, more than ever subject to the control of the Trusted Computing Alliance of Comanies and Government agencies. Our ownership is not full, there is no clear and quiet title to it.

Having devices, schemes, protocols that are not under our control, but under the control of others to sabatoge or disable or turn on or off our technology does take away from our real ownership of it, doesn't it??

That is what are called the "security" portions of our cpu and memory are all about, what the AACS and HDCP and other "trusted" portions of the GPU are all about.. and the network card and the motherboard, etc...

The whole buy and sell transaction has moved away from an "Arms Length" transaction to one where our ownership interest and control has been compromised. Control over the various hardware and software is not ours.

We do not fully own something, if someone else had the legal right to control aspects of it.

If we don't strive to keep and protect our freedoms and rights, they will be lost.

The Stain

 
All the new nvidia and AMD GPU's have the HDCP circuitry integrated into the actual GPU core and not on a seperate chip. As such you are not gonna find any modern GPU without HDCP. Geforce 7 was the last nvidia GPU to be available as non HDCP (I actually have one in storage, I bought an eVGA 7900GS KO 256-P2-N624-AR... The HDCP version was 5$ more and was called eVGA 7900GS KO 256-P2-N625-AR)
For a while (in 2006) it was actually illigal to manufacture non HDCP compliant parts. But that law was struck down... damn corrupt lawmakers are just up for sale to the highest bidder without a care about the repercussions of their actions.

So my 8800GTS has HDCP. So does my monitor. too bad (because 5$ of each went to intel for royalties for HDCP)

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
Instead of protecting its citizens against an abuse of power and usurped control over software and hardware by various groups in the name of content protection, many so-called representatives have turned a blind eye toward individual freedom and instead embarked on a course to eventually make it illegal to resist the loss of freedoms and control and ownership over technology by individuals.
Click to expand...

Do you realize how Marxist that sounds? I wouldn't point it out except for the fact that you are doing it under the call for 'freedom'- which it appears by your definition is totalitarian control over the private sector from regulators. You are absolutely free to not buy anything you don't want to if you don't like DRM. If the government and the, err, 'cartel' were honestly in some sort of conspiracy you would not have that option.

As far as high end consumer computer gear that lacks DRM- what are you planning on tryng to do with it exactly? Every game released nowadays has a differing form of DRM, as does all media that requires such hardware along with the overwhelming majority of productivity software.

The reason you can't find what you are asking for is there is no consumer demand for it. You think there is, get people behind you and ask nV/AMD/NEC/Matsushita for the hardware and if people feel the way you do I can assure you they will make it.
Click to expand...

If anything this is the OPPOSITE of marxism. DRM might be fueled by capitalism, but it is actually part of the plans towards a "big brother" foundation for a police state (only one ruled by corporations who act as the big brother on behalf of the government).
It is interesting to note that all "communist" (not really) countries are police states.


Also the so called "does not reduce functionality" is not entirely accurate, I have had compatibility issues caused by HDCP. Honestly HDCP is not even DRM, it is a scam. It gets intel money from companies licensing it, but does NOTHING to stop copying. It is severely compromised in a variety of locations. It will however give trouble to legitimate consumers who are mixing HDCP and non HDCP devices. Forcing them to "upgrade" to HDCP devices, selling even devices (to replace the non HDCP complient ones)...


Originally posted by: thestain
to surfsatwork.. it sure seems that if the intent of Digital Rights Management is to protect intellectual property was working, you probably would not be able to get this property without paying something to the author and creator of it. Since you apparantly get it for free, this appears to be stealing to me.
Click to expand...

According to the people who payed to have the laws to make copying illigal to begin with (the RIAA etc) library usage constitutes theft, and they desire for all libraries to be closed. Furthermore, personal usage would involve buying a yearly license to use "content" (music, movies, etc) which has to be renewed constantly. Quite a future they envision...

Anyways.. surfsatwork.. you just made a case for DRM saying that it was EASIER for you to pirate music thanks to DRM. It all ties back to the fact that DRM does nothing to stop piracy, but forces legit users to pay again and again for content they already purchased.
 
Anyone consider the taking over of the air waves as anything sinister in conjunction with this trusted stuff? Bill Gates is lobbying hard to get rid of the white space, (areas previously left without signals so there would be less interference in radio and tv signals) and he previously lobbied to get rid of analog, etc.. Does Bill intend to be King of the airwaves? think of how signal quality for listening to radio and ham radios and other things will suffer and we all will have to subscribe to listen or watch or communicate someday soon.... just food for thought.. now back to video cards.. anyone know of the fastest best ones without the drm stuff?

The Stain
 
I really despise DRM and how easily some people, including myself sometimes, toss away their rights. 🙁

And I agree that our elected officials, from all political parties, are simply for sale to the highest bidder. Its disgusting. Almost makes me want to run for public office to fight the good fight.

 
thestain you write too much. no way most people are going to spend the time to read your 'thesis' on drm


 
So, thestain: if I were to build a device and encode it so that people couldn't rip off my source code, you want what: the government makes me give it away for free? What incentive, beyond my pure enjoyment, do I have to make such a device? You need to take a chill pill, there is no "man" trying to control your life through your video card. Nice ruse, though, but (in America, at least, it sounds like you're from Russia) everyone, including companies, has the freedom to do what we want including encoding media to prevent or inhibit redistribution.
 
actually bob. Fair use laws grant people a variety of rights that were never repealed. DRM is a workaround fair use. The digital millium copyright act of 1999 made it illigal to bypass any mechanism designed to inhibit copying. So while it might be perfectly legal for you to make a copy, there is a mechanism in place preventing you from making such a copy, and it is illegal for you to bypass that mechanism.

And wtf is "build a device and encode it so that people couldn't rip off my source code". You encode files, not devices. Source code cannot be ripped out of anything, it can only be stolen via direct access to your personal (or business) computers, and devices have no source code, software does. I don't know how to properly argue against it because it made as much sense as the time a girl told me with full conviction "we shouldn't be genetically engineering fruit, what are we gonna do when tomatoes suddenly grow teeth and attack us?". In fact you are even more wrong then her (she was ignorant, but at least she made a coherent statement). So unless you make a coherent statement you cannot really be argued against.

DRM serves only to limit fair use and stop legitimate users from exercising their rights, and force them to purchase multiple copies. Actual theft, reverse engineering, and piracy are unaffected by it.
 
Something I want to chime in here with, free software does not necessarily mean no-price tag. Free software merely means that you have the freedom to view the source code, modify to suit your needs, and redistribute it as you see fit. There is nothing that says you cannot sell free software for a fee. Consult http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-sw.html for more details on free software definitions.

taltamir and thestain are 100% right on DRM being a workaround for fair use and trying to strip the user of their rights. Here's a chilling parable from Richard Stallman about there things are headed. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
 
Thanks again Talamir. Actually the more I think on these things.. it gets depressing.. where have all our freedoms gone? Economic Profits of large Corporations are being valued far more by our current representatives than the rights and freedoms of the individual citizen. There are controls that have been put in place to rob us of real ownership of technology and these controls really could be used against us. DRM and all the impact on "fair use" is just the tip of the iceberg in regards to what controls might very well come our way. There is this effort to tie everything down and carried to its logical conclussion, the human factor will be the last remaining weakness and then comes the dreaded mark of the beast or whatever to make it so we can't even buy or sell what is left to buy and sell without fail safe identification. Now some will say, but i have nothing to hide.. this will make things more secure.. less piracy, less crime, but in so doing they willingly ignore the rather important fact that the last say as to whether their credit or debit card works or their tv or pc or whatever works or that they are allowed to communicate or do commerce with the "trusted" world is not in the hands of the people, not even in the hands of the Government, but in the hands of a group of groups of people run by people very driven to accomplish their goals and yes some of them are not very good for most of us.

The Stain
 
If you connect a DRM-enabled graphics card to a DRM-enabled monitor with a non-DRM-enabled connection (some kind of simple HDMI transponder dongle?) then you could legally use any card and any monitor as though it did not have DRM. If there is indeed a market for such a configuration (maybe the DRM overhead in the software would be flagged off?), I'm sure you could get someone to make such a thing pretty cheaply. Perhaps the better thing to push for is a visible option to disable DRM in the software.
 
But the issue isn't bypassing HDCP. HDCP isn't "on" in theory unless you are transferring HDCP content. for 99% of the time your HDCP monitor and HDCP video card are transmitting non encrypted content, and it can cause compatibility issues regardless of weather its "on" or "off". And regardless, the idea is not pay 5$ per device to the DRM makers. Voting with your dollars so to speak that this sort of crap is unacceptable.

The notion here is, if you insert an HDCP enabled disk, and play it in a video player that detects HDCP status, it will check to see that all devices are HDCP. If they aren't it will either do nothing, downscale, or completely refuse to play the content, depending on the specification. Heck if you were worried about the actual signal then you could buy a HDCP stripping box. you plug it into your HDCP video output, and it pretends to be an HDCP monitor and strips the HDCP signal. Leaving only the pure video signal to be sent to a non HDCP monitor.
Ofcourse, such devices are illigal in the USA, canda, europe and Iraq (In the first 48 hours after the formation of the current Iraqi government a full set of US like copyright laws were passed).
 
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