Linux SUCKS and should never be used by human beings.

[Seeruk]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: Seeruk
Late to this thread 🙂

I think what the OP is getting at is that life aint easy with Linux. As an every day user I agree with him.

Todays example I was setting up a dev environment on Ubuntu... supposedly the best supported and widest array of software out there. However all I wanted was a java dev environment up, and quickly.

I had to set up a windows and a linux environment for testing. In windows installing JRE & JDK (netbeans 5) took less than 10 minutes and maybe a total of 10 clicks of a GUI explaining everything nicely to me, Mr Joe User. Downloaded and installed.... great I am off for a coffee.

Then I came to the ubuntu box. It should be easy right? Fire up synaptic, find JRE and Eclipse, tick the appropriate selections and wait. So far so good. Probably only took 10 minutes too. However on launching eclipse it can't find the path for JRE. OK.... check the bash and find everything is wrong. Paths are wrong, links to bizarre places and so I check to see if this is common. Turns out that the best way to install is to go find the right files manually on the Java & Eclipse websites and then set it all up manually. Taking another 15 or 20 minutes to uninstall the faulty JRE and Eclipse installations and then reinstall using a manual method found on the Ubuntu forums.

So the question is why are those things even in the damn repos if they are not installing in anything like a correct manner, why are they there if that's not the best way to set it up, and what would anyone new to Linux think of all this?? (answer is IT's CRAP!)

Linux fundamentalists can argue until they are blue in the face, but until Linux comes up with a universal installer, it can infuriate even a seasoned user and certainly turns off every single person I ever speak to about when discussing their experiences... its always something like this that sends them back to windows.

Did you enable the commented out (universe) repos in /etc/apt/sources.list? Did you do an apt-get update and apt-get upgrade?

Windows out of the box isn't that much fun either. Play an .mov or .rm or divx etc? Codecs are so much fun.

Yes and yes

Ooh and don't get me started on codecs 🙂

 

[Seeruk]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: Seeruk
Late to this thread 🙂

I think what the OP is getting at is that life aint easy with Linux. As an every day user I agree with him.

Todays example I was setting up a dev environment on Ubuntu... supposedly the best supported and widest array of software out there. However all I wanted was a java dev environment up, and quickly.

I had to set up a windows and a linux environment for testing. In windows installing JRE & JDK (netbeans 5) took less than 10 minutes and maybe a total of 10 clicks of a GUI explaining everything nicely to me, Mr Joe User. Downloaded and installed.... great I am off for a coffee.

Then I came to the ubuntu box. It should be easy right? Fire up synaptic, find JRE and Eclipse, tick the appropriate selections and wait. So far so good. Probably only took 10 minutes too. However on launching eclipse it can't find the path for JRE. OK.... check the bash and find everything is wrong. Paths are wrong, links to bizarre places and so I check to see if this is common. Turns out that the best way to install is to go find the right files manually on the Java & Eclipse websites and then set it all up manually. Taking another 15 or 20 minutes to uninstall the faulty JRE and Eclipse installations and then reinstall using a manual method found on the Ubuntu forums.

So the question is why are those things even in the damn repos if they are not installing in anything like a correct manner, why are they there if that's not the best way to set it up, and what would anyone new to Linux think of all this?? (answer is IT's CRAP!)

Linux fundamentalists can argue until they are blue in the face, but until Linux comes up with a universal installer, it can infuriate even a seasoned user and certainly turns off every single person I ever speak to about when discussing their experiences... its always something like this that sends them back to windows.

I briefly used Eclipse on an Ubuntu box a while ago, 6.06 if I remember correctly.
APT/Synaptic was nice enough to put a shortcut in the applications menu for me.

Considering how miserably you failed with everything last time you showed up to complain about Linux, I'm not surprised this is a continuing trend.

Ooh yeah it managed a shortcut... just a shame it was pointing at a non-functional installation.

And see my sig to save me typing condescending poor attempts at insults back at ya... have a nice day 🙂

 

[drag]

He is addressing you in the similar manner that you used in your first missive.

In other words your inviting people to call you a dumbass, it doesn't have anything to do with you critizing Linux. Use a similar attitude and critize Windows or OS X and you'll get the same results.

 

[PorscheMaD911]

Originally posted by: Tick

Originally posted by: sonoma1993

Originally posted by: Tick

Originally posted by: sonoma1993

Originally posted by: Tick

Originally posted by: Tauren
I use Debian on 3 computers at my house. I don't care for it, but try Ubuntu it's made so easy monkey's can use it.

I'm using ubuntu. I am apparently not smart enough to use it. This despite the fact that I can get an A in Calc 3.

try using fedora core 6. It based off red hat

Is it easy? As in, windows or OSX easy?

I found it easy.

it takes some learning though.

That's the problem. I have no desire to learn an OS. I never had to learn windows.

A. That's crap. You weren't born knowing how to use Windows; that knowledge came from somewhere!

B. From what I remember of my calculus studies, it taught me to seek understanding, and how to solve problems. I guess your classes are quite different, because it seems you have no desire or aptitude to solve a problem, namely understanding a new and complex operating system.

There's more benefits from learning Linux than just understanding Linux. If you want to greatly enhance your research, learning and problem solving abilities, do what I did and take a year off from Windows, try a ton of distros, learn how they tick, get them working the way you want. Heck, forget compiling your own programs, after a few months you could be compiling your own distro!

However, it sounds like this kind of learning experience is not for you, so stick with what you know, Windows. But please don't post another thread like this when you move to Vista.

 

[PorscheMaD911]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Add a repository (in Debian you just add 1 line to /etc/apt/sources.list and in Ubuntu you can use the Synaptic GUI to add that line) and then type 'apt-get install mplayer' or use Synaptic to install it.

Sorry doesn't work when I try to play a video file I got the following error
Error opening/initilizing the selected video_out(-vo) device

I saw that error once. Just had to set up my video device properly in Mplayer.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: drag
He is addressing you in the similar manner that you used in your first missive.

In other words your inviting people to call you a dumbass, it doesn't have anything to do with you critizing Linux. Use a similar attitude and critize Windows or OS X and you'll get the same results.

Myeah, something along those lines, plus the fact that I remember the style of his "article" he wrote a while back 🙂

 

[Seeruk]

Drag/sunner...

You are perhaps the most bizarre people on this forum... nowhere in that post am I talking about any one person... I am talking about an operating system and it's hilarious that some people take that as a personal insult.

May I remind you that an operating system is lines of code and not a member of your family?

Perhaps not Drag as I know you are capable of a sensible conversation, but the usual suspects who exemplify my sig are all present here as expected 😉

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Thanks for starting this thread Tick :beer: I've been putting off trying a linux distro for years; afraid of the learning curve, and intimidated by the number of different distros. The replies just within the first few pages *50 per page* have convinced me to download and try Ubuntu 6.10

I pretty much stuck with Amiga until I stopped being able to find software for it locally BITD. Switched to IBM compatable basically per force, and been a user since. It is either a 'nix distro or Apple I can chose to learn now, and this experiment is Free so I have nothing to lose, as even the time invested is better spent than on gaming or watching movies for instance.

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Seeruk
Drag/sunner...

You are perhaps the most bizarre people on this forum... nowhere in that post am I talking about any one person... I am talking about an operating system and it's hilarious that some people take that as a personal insult.

May I remind you that an operating system is lines of code and not a member of your family?

Perhaps not Drag as I know you are capable of a sensible conversation, but the usual suspects who exemplify my sig are all present here as expected 😉

I don't quite see where I took it as a personal insult.
You're to Linux what Quinton is to Vista, and Link19 is to Win95(well no, not that bad really, sorry about that).

 

[Seeruk]

- The need to type a poorly veiled insult seems to indicate a certain reflex to the comment... I'm no psychologist but then I needn't be in that example 😉

- Not at all, I use Linux and Unix based systems everyday. I recommend them to clients almost every day if it is the right tool for the job (as long as that job isn't in the home of 95% of homw computer users 😀 ). I am capable of an objective and fact based opinion... perhaps that is why I am so good at my job 😛 My point being I like lots of things about *nix. Only someone who is fanatical about lines of code can take what is constructive criticism as a 'hate' of the object of that criticism.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Originally posted by: Tick

Originally posted by: tfinch2
You just suck at it.

And what's plane stupid?

Using an OS should not be a skill.

yeah right. just becasue you can't use it doesn't mean IT suck it means YOU suck.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: PorscheMaD911

Originally posted by: smack Down

Add a repository (in Debian you just add 1 line to /etc/apt/sources.list and in Ubuntu you can use the Synaptic GUI to add that line) and then type 'apt-get install mplayer' or use Synaptic to install it.

Sorry doesn't work when I try to play a video file I got the following error
Error opening/initilizing the selected video_out(-vo) device

I saw that error once. Just had to set up my video device properly in Mplayer.

mplayer -vo <device>

For <device> try
xv
x11
gl
gl2

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Seeruk
- The need to type a poorly veiled insult seems to indicate a certain reflex to the comment... I'm no psychologist but then I needn't be in that example 😉

- Not at all, I use Linux and Unix based systems everyday. I recommend them to clients almost every day if it is the right tool for the job (as long as that job isn't in the home of 95% of homw computer users 😀 ). I am capable of an objective and fact based opinion... perhaps that is why I am so good at my job 😛 My point being I like lots of things about *nix. Only someone who is fanatical about lines of code can take what is constructive criticism as a 'hate' of the object of that criticism.

Funny, I've installed loads upon loads of Windows machines for people, and never tried to push Linux on them.
What I'm saying is, last time you made any noise, it was with a very poorly written article with very little substance in it, and a complete lack of objectivity, and now you come back again, complaining about things that others have managed just fine(Eclipse? Our developers used it almost exclusively at my old job, and they never had a problem, and yes this was with Ubuntu).
Maybe the problem with Linux isn't in fact with Linux, since the complaints you make are mostly about stuff that others have managed just fine?

And you're the one that keeps bringing up this hate thing and such, you seem to have a fetish with it.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: PorscheMaD911

Originally posted by: smack Down

Add a repository (in Debian you just add 1 line to /etc/apt/sources.list and in Ubuntu you can use the Synaptic GUI to add that line) and then type 'apt-get install mplayer' or use Synaptic to install it.

Sorry doesn't work when I try to play a video file I got the following error
Error opening/initilizing the selected video_out(-vo) device

I saw that error once. Just had to set up my video device properly in Mplayer.

mplayer -vo <device>

For <device> try
xv
x11
gl
gl2

mplayer -vo help
will give you a list of aviable drivers to try out.

Usually it defaults to 'xv' since Xvideo overlay usually gives the best results. However this may not work properly in all environments. If 'xv' is not working then 'sdl' is a good bet.

 

[Seeruk]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: Seeruk
- The need to type a poorly veiled insult seems to indicate a certain reflex to the comment... I'm no psychologist but then I needn't be in that example 😉

- Not at all, I use Linux and Unix based systems everyday. I recommend them to clients almost every day if it is the right tool for the job (as long as that job isn't in the home of 95% of homw computer users 😀 ). I am capable of an objective and fact based opinion... perhaps that is why I am so good at my job 😛 My point being I like lots of things about *nix. Only someone who is fanatical about lines of code can take what is constructive criticism as a 'hate' of the object of that criticism.

Funny, I've installed loads upon loads of Windows machines for people, and never tried to push Linux on them.
What I'm saying is, last time you made any noise, it was with a very poorly written article with very little substance in it, and a complete lack of objectivity, and now you come back again, complaining about things that others have managed just fine(Eclipse? Our developers used it almost exclusively at my old job, and they never had a problem, and yes this was with Ubuntu).
Maybe the problem with Linux isn't in fact with Linux, since the complaints you make are mostly about stuff that others have managed just fine?

And you're the one that keeps bringing up this hate thing and such, you seem to have a fetish with it.

I've no need to prove myself... follow the same steps and you will get the same result. Search ubuntu forums and you will find the same issue thus the reason why someone had to write the guide to do it manually.

I am sure on a previous version of Ubuntu it worked, I am sure it will in the future... but it's always something that turns the user off Linux. Along with editing xorg.conf's for drivers to work and hosing (as far as they are concerned) their machine by a misplaced space, the expectation among the userbase that if something is installed ... it's ready to work as opposed to 'oh and then just fire up an editor and edit X, Y and Z files' it grinds the user down.

Any colleague I speak to (yes those working almost exclusively with Unix and Linux) say the same thing, but are also greatful it is such a pain in the ass because it keeps them in a job!

After a little search i found the article that obviously upset you so much (even though it is filed under the 'RANTS' section will generally means it's a rant not a review 😉 ) was merely as statement of events, events shared by many other users new and old to those distros at the time.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Seeruk

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: Seeruk
Late to this thread 🙂

I think what the OP is getting at is that life aint easy with Linux. As an every day user I agree with him.

Todays example I was setting up a dev environment on Ubuntu... supposedly the best supported and widest array of software out there. However all I wanted was a java dev environment up, and quickly.

I had to set up a windows and a linux environment for testing. In windows installing JRE & JDK (netbeans 5) took less than 10 minutes and maybe a total of 10 clicks of a GUI explaining everything nicely to me, Mr Joe User. Downloaded and installed.... great I am off for a coffee.

Then I came to the ubuntu box. It should be easy right? Fire up synaptic, find JRE and Eclipse, tick the appropriate selections and wait. So far so good. Probably only took 10 minutes too. However on launching eclipse it can't find the path for JRE. OK.... check the bash and find everything is wrong. Paths are wrong, links to bizarre places and so I check to see if this is common. Turns out that the best way to install is to go find the right files manually on the Java & Eclipse websites and then set it all up manually. Taking another 15 or 20 minutes to uninstall the faulty JRE and Eclipse installations and then reinstall using a manual method found on the Ubuntu forums.

So the question is why are those things even in the damn repos if they are not installing in anything like a correct manner, why are they there if that's not the best way to set it up, and what would anyone new to Linux think of all this?? (answer is IT's CRAP!)

Linux fundamentalists can argue until they are blue in the face, but until Linux comes up with a universal installer, it can infuriate even a seasoned user and certainly turns off every single person I ever speak to about when discussing their experiences... its always something like this that sends them back to windows.

Did you enable the commented out (universe) repos in /etc/apt/sources.list? Did you do an apt-get update and apt-get upgrade?

Windows out of the box isn't that much fun either. Play an .mov or .rm or divx etc? Codecs are so much fun.

Yes and yes

Ooh and don't get me started on codecs 🙂

Fluendo!

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Seeruk

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: Seeruk
- The need to type a poorly veiled insult seems to indicate a certain reflex to the comment... I'm no psychologist but then I needn't be in that example 😉

- Not at all, I use Linux and Unix based systems everyday. I recommend them to clients almost every day if it is the right tool for the job (as long as that job isn't in the home of 95% of homw computer users 😀 ). I am capable of an objective and fact based opinion... perhaps that is why I am so good at my job 😛 My point being I like lots of things about *nix. Only someone who is fanatical about lines of code can take what is constructive criticism as a 'hate' of the object of that criticism.

Funny, I've installed loads upon loads of Windows machines for people, and never tried to push Linux on them.
What I'm saying is, last time you made any noise, it was with a very poorly written article with very little substance in it, and a complete lack of objectivity, and now you come back again, complaining about things that others have managed just fine(Eclipse? Our developers used it almost exclusively at my old job, and they never had a problem, and yes this was with Ubuntu).
Maybe the problem with Linux isn't in fact with Linux, since the complaints you make are mostly about stuff that others have managed just fine?

And you're the one that keeps bringing up this hate thing and such, you seem to have a fetish with it.

I've no need to prove myself... follow the same steps and you will get the same result. Search ubuntu forums and you will find the same issue thus the reason why someone had to write the guide to do it manually.

I am sure on a previous version of Ubuntu it worked, I am sure it will in the future... but it's always something that turns the user off Linux. Along with editing xorg.conf's for drivers to work and hosing (as far as they are concerned) their machine by a misplaced space, the expectation among the userbase that if something is installed ... it's ready to work as opposed to 'oh and then just fire up an editor and edit X, Y and Z files' it grinds the user down.

Any colleague I speak to (yes those working almost exclusively with Unix and Linux) say the same thing, but are also greatful it is such a pain in the ass because it keeps them in a job!

After a little search i found the article that obviously upset you so much (even though it is filed under the 'RANTS' section will generally means it's a rant not a review 😉 ) was merely as statement of events, events shared by many other users new and old to those distros at the time.

Ok, since I'm waiting for my lunch to finish, I'm bored, so I did actually search the Ubuntu forums, and I can't see any threads about the problem you describe.
And again, I did in fact install Eclipse, via Synaptic, on Ubuntu 6.10, worked fine for me, and others, no config files, no command line, worked fine out of the box.

And you keep bringing up this work of yours, what exactly do you do?
I think my mother would have plenty of problems with Ubuntu, which is to be expected from a non techie who's used to Windows, therefore I gladly install and support Windows XP for her.
You however seem to imply you're a techie of some sort, so I find it funny that you're having so many problems, while people who are merely hobbyists can install and run Ubuntu just fine, so what exactly is it you do?
I'll go first if it makes you feel better, I currently spend almost all my working time on an XP box administering Solaris boxes, aside from some stray problem that I get called in to help on, I spend very little time with Linux these days, so if you wanna call me a fanboy or zealot, you should probably make that a Solaris fanboy/zealot(yes, Solaris 10 is damn sweet).

 

[Seeruk]

Technical Architect

And regardless of OS ... a forum search engine shouldnt be rocket science 😛

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=332674&highlight=eclipse

And you are .... 'in your own funny way of course' proving my point (well several but I'll stay OT) in that today all is well, tomorrow much is broken. This is of course natural when so many packages are updated so often, but that IS the problem - all these packages maintained by so many different people, thrown onto repositories... means stuff goes wrong. Every time you do a build of anything Linux related, something different goes wrong and it's often a bitch to put right for a tecchy... but for a human being who just wanted to install a new program onto his/her computer it's frustrating and turns them off linux. A standardised installer across distro's would remedy much.

Admittedly a normal human being is unlikely to want to install a Java IDE ... but those ridiculous > 700 words of installation dont really compare to 'double click a file and click next 3-4 times' now do they?

However, you read it your own way.... you usually do .... read sig blah blah blah

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Seeruk
Technical Architect

And regardless of OS ... a forum search engine shouldnt be rocket science 😛

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=332674&highlight=eclipse

And you are .... 'in your own funny way of course' proving my point (well several but I'll stay OT) in that today all is well, tomorrow much is broken. This is of course natural when so many packages are updated so often, but that IS the problem - all these packages maintained by so many different people, thrown onto repositories... means stuff goes wrong. Every time you do a build of anything Linux related, something different goes wrong and it's often a bitch to put right for a tecchy... but for a human being who just wanted to install a new program onto his/her computer it's frustrating and turns them off linux. A standardised installer across distro's would remedy much.

Admittedly a normal human being is unlikely to want to install a Java IDE ... but those ridiculous > 700 words of installation dont really compare to 'double click a file and click next 3-4 times' now do they?

However, you read it your own way.... you usually do .... read sig blah blah blah

Actually, you proved that you can't make an argument without distorting the facts.
That doesn't deal with installing Java and Eclipse from the repos using Synaptic, that deals with install Java6 and Eclipse manually, and doesn't mention any problems with Synaptic or the repos, looks more like a guide for people who need newer versions than are available in the repos.
Maybe that's what you meant to begin with, but it's not what you wrote, and my clairvoyance has been kinda shaky lately, so I kinda missed it.

Come to think of it, this reminds me of your article/rant/whatever, whining but little facts to back the whining up.

There are reasons to think Linux isn't ready for most people's desktops, most anyone can see that, you fail to mention these reasons though.

 

[Alone]

I'm not gonna sift through the entire thread, so I'll just start at the beginning.

Originally posted by: Tick
1) Command lines/Lack of GUI's

Why the fvck would I want to use a command line? I have a modern computer, capable of displaying color and icons. Why should their be a command line? And further, why doesn't everything have a gui? Gui's are good, and easy, and don't require me to learn commands. Yey for Gui's.

The idea behind Linux isn't to make things visually appealing in order to get the work done. Basically what it's here to do is serve up all the command and usability that you would need. It's not going to dress up in a nice suit just to please the eye. If you want visuals, install Linspire. Also, there's an equvalent GUI for pretty much every program that runs under Linux

Originally posted by: Tick
2)Root/sudo is stupid.

Why on earth should I have to deal with either using sudo or running as root to actually use my programs? I still can't get a lot of programs to run because they keep whining about permissions. What ever happened to good old admin accounts? Why does sudo break everything?

Time has shown that giving users constant access to the root (administrator) account has proven hazardous. Having full access helps spread malicious code across your system. If you feel confident enough to use the root account 24/7, just enable it. Nothing to cry about.

Originally posted by: Tick
3)Apt-get

Now this is just plane stupid. Why is it so damn hard to install anything? I have a desktop, why not do it the way it should be done? I get the installer icon, click on it, press forward a few times, wait, and have a nice icon on my desktop. Why isn't it done this way?

Apt-get is the command line utility to install applications. Synaptic is a GUI based installer (there's your precious GUI, quit complaining). And yes, there are executable installers which you can just "double click" and press forward a few times. Let's not forget "gdebi" for debian based distributions. Double click on the .deb file and press "install package". Much quicker than installing under Windows.

Originally posted by: Tick
4)Compiling

Again, stupid. Just give me a fvcking installer program. None of this compiling sh1t.

Compiling lately is just reservered to programs that are still in alpha/beta testing. There's likely to be a packaged file for anything you'd ever want to install.

Originally posted by: Tick
Come on Linux. The rest of the world has moved beyond 1990. It's time for you to do so also. I'm giving up and installing windows.

Linux obviously isn't for everyone. Windows is for the people who can't get what they need done in Linux. Perhaps one day you'll be willing to do a little research and find the distribution that would be best for you.

To this day, I still have the opinion that Linux shouldn't mainly be used by power users; those who find that Windows doesn't have the abilities or capabilities to get the job done the way they want it. I'm not trying to say that the average computer user shouldn't use it, but rather that it's likely that they won't accept it.

Reading your post leads me to believe that you just want "Windows" but you want to be able to say you use Linux. Why are you even trying to use Linux if Windows is good enough for you? Linux is not Windows. It will never be the same as Windows. Of course it's completely different; if it wasn't, what would be the point?

 

[StopSign]

Ubuntu + Xserver hates my laptop. That's all I will say.

 

[VooDooAddict]

His complaints while they have workarounds are unfortunately how much of the world still sees Linux.

Application install and configuration has come a long way.

Esp with Vista's release. There's a chance for Linux to really shine on low cost web browsing PCs. Must of this market could care less who's OS they are running. They just need it to be cheap and reliable. There's such a large segment of the population that only needs Google, Gmail, YouTube, Blogs, and Digital Photo management from any common memory cards. (Personally, I think Apple is missing out on much of this market with the "high" cost of the mini.)

 

[n0cmonkey]

"Could care less" and "Couldn't care less" mean two different things. Most of the time when people say they could care less they don't mean it. I'm going to blog about this on my myspace tonight.

 

[will889]

Ubuntu/Kubuntu and a few other debian based distros are going to be able to use CNR very soon (previously only used for Linspire) -- website is already setup it just has a few more holes to jump through and such. Personally I've had good luck at Linux, but it was actually because I understand hardware pretty well and built boxes with parts that were known to work reliably with a particular distro. I also did a fair amount of initial research before each new install on a certain distro. The CNR installer is actually pretty good and could potentially close a big gap for linux noobs. Of course there will still be synaptic and the console still there for those that like to go that route.

 

[nweaver]

yes, configuring X by hand is a pain...but it's a hell of a lot better then the box bluescreening and then rebooting quicker then you can figure out what happened...over and over.


X gives some fairly decent errors, and you can realize what happened an fix it pretty easily. Same can't be said of windows.

BTW, CNR/Linspire are (imho) craptastic alternatives to apt/synaptic. The only difference is that (and this can change with univere/mutliverse repos) there are some propriatary codecs, protocols, and apps in there that don't follow Debian's guidelines (flash, etc)