Linux Question

[sourceninja]

64bit gentoo installs all needed libs for 32bit programs in /lib32 by default. So cedega, or any other 32bit app will work. You can use 64bit firefox or konqueror with 32bit plugins (although for firefox you will have to use a unsupported ebuild of nspluginwrapper, but konqueror is fully supported). You can install 32bit java or blackdowns 64bit java to get a browser java plugin (suns 64bit java doesn't have a browser plugin).

The only apps I run that are 32bit are cedega and mplayer. You just emerge mplayer-bin to get 32bit mplayer then all your codecs will work. If you want you can emerge firefox-bin for 32bit firefox, but I found that unnessisary as you can use the nspluginwrapper script or konqueror. Openoffice does not compile on AMD64 but they supply a bin that works though emerge. Just make sure you run ~amd64, stable amd64 is outdated imho, and ~amd64 is fully stable anyways (i have had no problems or crashes ever).

If you have any questions about any apps you had trouble with with ubuntu 64 I can tell you how it works in gentoo. There is absolutly no need for a chroot for 32bit compatablity in gentoo, they have ever library you might need in portage for 32bit comptatiblity. I think gentoo currently has the best amd64 distro. But if apt ever becomes multi-arch, that could change quickly.

 

[Nothinman]

My point is how easy is it if you have to jump though all those hoops to use. Why can't ubuntu devs get permission from companys to include their free software (such as flash or opera) in such a way as it can be installed without jumping though hoops?

99% of what Automatix does requires no hooops, all you do is enable the universe and multiverse repos which is like 3 clicks in Synaptic and you can install nearly all of the packages Automatix installs. Yes, some things like Opera are non-free but who cares? It's Opera's choice to make you jump through those hoops, not Ubuntu's.

Why do I basically NEED a chroot to do anything with ubuntu 64bit, but not gentoo 64bit?

Because Ubuntu is based on Debian and Debian is taking their time and doing proper biarch support so it works with all of their current architectures and can easily work with any new ones. Technically you could probably hack together your own scripts to set LD_PRELOAD_PATH and run the 32-bit binary, which might be what Gentoo does, but there's only 2 things I can even think of that would require 32-bit support anyway.

Should ubuntu pay to have dvd support? Well, why not start a fund?

No, because it would still be $X per license and they can't predict how many they'll need.

All the software that requires 3rd party repos in ubuntu seems to be in normal repos in debain

Technically Universe and Multiverse aren't 3rd party repos, but Ubuntu does that because they want to focus on a smaller set of core packages to support. It makes sense, Debian is almost up to 18,000 packages and that would be impossible to support without a huge developer base.

I can't even believe Nothing man says to use dapper repos.

I mentioned 1 package that's only available in Dapper and I most certainly did not recommend using Dapper.

And there's no g or space, in my username.

 

[sourceninja]

gentoo simply installs needed 32bit libs in /lib32 and 64bit libs in you guess it, /lib64 then it links /lib to /lib64. Its not a perfect solution, but its the same one ubuntu uses for firefox32. Its just that gentoo took the time to actually supply everything you might need for all the apps that might have 64bit issues. (cedega, firefox, mplayer, etc). Yes, proper multiarch support is a good idea, but in the meantime, I want things to 'just work'.

I'm not dissing debian. I'm just saying the quality of ubuntu has gone down. I'm also saying the current state of debian/ubuntu amd64 is unusable to me. Where as gentoo AMD64 is usable with no more hassle then their x86 distro.

also lack of developers is not an excuse, neither is the lack of time to get permission to resdistribute non-Oss free items like flash. If it is a problem (such as lack of packages supported) then its a problem, excuses dont matter. They need to find a way to recruit more developers. Having met a few people at the ohio linux fest representing ubuntu, i wouldn't be in the mood to jump in and help. I found them dismissive and arrogant (just like me).

 

[daniel49]

I have ubuntu and did most of those things without the script but it took some time to do.
pclinux actually comes loaded with the probably half of these setup already, and the other half are a synaptec download away.
By far and above the most straight forward distro for a beginner.
heck it even comes with an ati or nividia driver for your card.

 

[Nothinman]

gentoo simply installs needed 32bit libs in /lib32 and 64bit libs in you guess it, /lib64 then it links /lib to /lib64

Which AFAIK is not FSH compliant and still requires all ebuilds be updated and apps be recompiled. Gentoo has a slight advantage in that they don't have to rebuild all of the packages themselves, but that also means more unexpected breakages will probably occur.

also lack of developers is not an excuse,

It's not an excuse, they chose to focus on a core subset of Debian's packages from the start.

neither is the lack of time to get permission to resdistribute non-Oss free items like flash.

I can't speak for them, but I doubt it's lack of time. A lot of Ubuntu devs are current Debian devs as well so they probably don't want to waste time on non-free software.

If it's that big of a deal to you file a bug report, complaining on a random forum won't change anything.

 

[sourceninja]

I have stated my issues to the people who matter. I was dismissed. I can state my opinion to help infulence the decisions of others. Which matters more. If enough people speak out, people wont use ubuntu, they will have to change, or die. Or i'm a minority and it wont matter. I suspect that as more versions of ubuntu get release, I will not be a minority.

Its not about changing ubuntu, I already know they dont care. I've filed bugs, I've suggested things on their channels, I've even talked to devs in person. I know how this works, i'm not a linux noob.

I dont care enough to try anymore, but maybe I can help save some people some time and point them in better directions.

Its a simple fact the zelots need to understand. Not all software can be free. I'm sick of this if its not free its crap and not worth our time mindset. Its a bane to linux adoption and helps reinfoce the windows nutrider positions on why linux is bad.

 

[Nothinman]

Its a simple fact the zelots need to understand. Not all software can be free. I'm sick of this if its not free its crap and not worth our time mindset. Its a bane to linux adoption and helps reinfoce the windows nutrider positions on why linux is bad.

And I'm sick of having to have non-free software installed on my machine. But in this case there are people working on free versions of a flash player and Java interpreter. And .Net seems to be gaining a lot of momentum so not having Java available not matter at all, if it even matters now. I have no idea how well the GPL'd flash player works, I installed the non-free flash plugin when I first setup the machine and haven't looked at it since what I have works and I almost never use it anyway.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: sourceninja
I have stated my issues to the people who matter. I was dismissed. I can state my opinion to help infulence the decisions of others. Which matters more. If enough people speak out, people wont use ubuntu, they will have to change, or die. Or i'm a minority and it wont matter. I suspect that as more versions of ubuntu get release, I will not be a minority.

Its not about changing ubuntu, I already know they dont care. I've filed bugs, I've suggested things on their channels, I've even talked to devs in person. I know how this works, i'm not a linux noob.

I dont care enough to try anymore, but maybe I can help save some people some time and point them in better directions.

Its a simple fact the zelots need to understand. Not all software can be free. I'm sick of this if its not free its crap and not worth our time mindset. Its a bane to linux adoption and helps reinfoce the windows nutrider positions on why linux is bad.

What worthwhile program isn't free? You have just about everything available:
OS: (GNU/)Linux, NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, PC-BSD, DragonflyBSD, MirOS/MirBSD, Darwin
browser: firefox, seamonkey, mozilla (now called seamonkey, but it's still there), konqueror, gsomething_or_other, dillo, lynx, links, w3m
email: kmail, thunderbird, evolution, mutt
word processor: Kword, sword (? from O😵), TeX

All of these are freely distributable (there are some wierdnesses with the Mozilla family because the Mozilla foundation cares more about their reputation than their software).

neither is the lack of time to get permission to resdistribute non-Oss free items like flash

This sometimes involves more than time. Being able to legally distribute these types of materials often feeds hungry lawyers. Anytime (wrt free/open source software) we have the choice to not get lawyers involved we should take it. That's why we use short freedom granting licenses. 😉

 

[sourceninja]

worthwhile software. UT2004, flash. Thats two. how many do you want? I've got some commercial tools for databases that I use. I've got some commercial backup software. How about maya? Maybe cedega. Maybe I like acrobat reader over kpdf.

Why not work out a way to use your package managment to manage all your software? Too much trouble or too much politics?

Anways its not worth my time. Just because YOU dont need non-OSS software doesn't mean I can just give up software I NEED for my job. Or software I WANT for pleasure. Its not a technical problem, its a political one. I'd expect it from a small hobbiest distro. But thats not what ubuntu claims to be.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: sourceninja
worthwhile software. UT2004, flash. Thats two. how many do you want? I've got some commercial tools for databases that I use. I've got some commercial backup software. How about maya? Maybe cedega. Maybe I like acrobat reader over kpdf.

Why not work out a way to use your package managment to manage all your software? Too much trouble or too much politics?

Anways its not worth my time. Just because YOU dont need non-OSS software doesn't mean I can just give up software I NEED for my job. Or software I WANT for pleasure. Its not a technical problem, its a political one. I'd expect it from a small hobbiest distro. But thats not what ubuntu claims to be.

Then fix it. Convince companies to allow unrestricted redistribution. Simple, huh?

Flash is crap, no reason to ever install it.

 

[Nothinman]

Why not work out a way to use your package managment to manage all your software? Too much trouble or too much politics?

Ideally you'd be right, but obviously those companies don't want to work with us otherwise they wouldn't use such restrictive licensing.

 

[groovin]

Flash is crap, no reason to ever install it.

agreed!!

 

[DidlySquat]

I suggest that either Nothinman or n0cmonkey change their avatar ASAP because it's confusing they have the same one while saying different things

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: DidlySquat
I suggest that either Nothinman or n0cmonkey change their avatar ASAP because it's confusing they have the same one while saying different things

Whenever I change mine someone complains. 🙁

 

[nweaver]

lol, I was about to say "change it back, now you are confusing me"

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Then fix it. Convince companies to allow unrestricted redistribution. Simple, huh?

Flash is crap, no reason to ever install it.

I like my fix better, just not use distros that dont do what I want. Gentoo works perfect for me. I have no reason to change ubuntu. But I can help people learn what I feel to be the truth. Why not fix the package managment to download the app from the companys website, display the EULA and install it. Wow, its like almost too easy. Hey wait, my distro does it!

And i have been converted! I will remove flash right away because ye proclaims it crap.

Just because you dont use something doesn't make it crap. Especially when I need it to get paid. There is nothing wrong with ubuntu, gentoo sucks, down with closed source software. Any thing else I should tow with this party line?

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Ideally you'd be right, but obviously those companies don't want to work with us otherwise they wouldn't use such restrictive licensing.

how does gentoo get away with it? I can manage ut2004 with portage, i can manage all my commercial software with portage. Its a development problem, but they push it off on proprietry software, which is a load of crap. I can tell you for a fact gentoo is not doing anything illegal with its package managment.

My original point still stands. The quailty of ubuntu has gone down. It will keep going down. Debian is better imho for new users. Its quality has stayed consistant. Its however still not for me.

 

[Nothinman]

Why not fix the package managment to download the app from the companys website, display the EULA and install it. Wow, its like almost too easy.

Because unless I got confirmation from a lawyer I would be wary to do something like that because IMO it's still redistribution and possibly illegal.

how does gentoo get away with it?

Probably by ignoring the rules and hoping no one calls them on it.

I can tell you for a fact gentoo is not doing anything illegal with its package managment.

And what was the name of the law firm that gave you that advice?

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: DidlySquat
I suggest that either Nothinman or n0cmonkey change their avatar ASAP because it's confusing they have the same one while saying different things

Whenever I change mine someone complains. 🙁

looks a little closer:shocked:
that is Noc
avitar threw me off

 

[Basie]

Flash may be crap but without it I wouldnt be able to watch these sexy babes flash across my screen at my favorite news
site. http://www.thesun.co.uk/ Page 3.

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Why not fix the package managment to download the app from the companys website, display the EULA and install it. Wow, its like almost too easy.

Because unless I got confirmation from a lawyer I would be wary to do something like that because IMO it's still redistribution and possibly illegal.

how does gentoo get away with it?

Probably by ignoring the rules and hoping no one calls them on it.

I can tell you for a fact gentoo is not doing anything illegal with its package managment.

And what was the name of the law firm that gave you that advice?

Your right, I'm wrong. One of the largest linux distros breaks the law on a daily basis and nobody cares. Never mind how it works, or the fact they dont distribute anything but a script. Your right. Sorry to have challenged you. After all I'm sure you have done tons of research on it. I will be formating my machine tonight to put ubuntu on it. Afterwards I know I will be happy.

 

[Nothinman]

One of the largest linux distros breaks the law on a daily basis and nobody cares

Huge companies do it all of the time, look at http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2006/02/22/#20060222-buried-alive so why is it unbelieve that Gentoo could be doing something wrong?

I will be formating my machine tonight to put ubuntu on it. Afterwards I know I will be happy.

I couldn't care less if you run Ubuntu, I have no vested interest in the company or the distribution, I don't even have a single machine with it installed.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: sourceninja

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Then fix it. Convince companies to allow unrestricted redistribution. Simple, huh?

Flash is crap, no reason to ever install it.

I like my fix better, just not use distros that dont do what I want. Gentoo works perfect for me. I have no reason to change ubuntu. But I can help people learn what I feel to be the truth. Why not fix the package managment to download the app from the companys website, display the EULA and install it. Wow, its like almost too easy. Hey wait, my distro does it!

And i have been converted! I will remove flash right away because ye proclaims it crap.

Just because you dont use something doesn't make it crap. Especially when I need it to get paid. There is nothing wrong with ubuntu, gentoo sucks, down with closed source software. Any thing else I should tow with this party line?

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Ideally you'd be right, but obviously those companies don't want to work with us otherwise they wouldn't use such restrictive licensing.

how does gentoo get away with it? I can manage ut2004 with portage, i can manage all my commercial software with portage. Its a development problem, but they push it off on proprietry software, which is a load of crap. I can tell you for a fact gentoo is not doing anything illegal with its package managment.

My original point still stands. The quailty of ubuntu has gone down. It will keep going down. Debian is better imho for new users. Its quality has stayed consistant. Its however still not for me.

I hate Linux and use closed source software when necessary, so you've got the wrong party. 🙂

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: DidlySquat
I suggest that either Nothinman or n0cmonkey change their avatar ASAP because it's confusing they have the same one while saying different things

Whenever I change mine someone complains. 🙁

Having them different's not a problem. Just don't change it again, now that you've picked the snail. People will get used to it.

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Flash is crap, no reason to ever install it.

Normally I'd agree with you, but I've seen some useful applications of it lately. Largely google video and some screencasts from linux developers. It may not be absolutely necessary, but it's better than something like news.com.com requiring you to either install a ram or wmv plugin.

Yahoo is doing their maps with flash, which I would have said was a good thing if google hadn't already proven how much you can do with plain ajax. But every now and then, some genious web developer realizes that flash can actually be used for something useful.

 

[groovin]

ok, maybe flash isnt crap crap... but the way many sites use it these days is crap.