Linux and Laptops

walla

Senior member
Jun 2, 2001
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*note*
I have posted an identical post in the SFF/Notebooks forum, thought I could get perhaps different opinions here
*/endnote*

I am a computer engineering graduate student and am kicking around the idea of buying a new laptop. I build my own desktops, and am knowledgable about hardware, but I know nothing about the laptop market since I've never owned one.

However, I'd like one that is Linux/unix friendly. Much of the work/research I do deals with applications that run in the *nix environment...plus saving on software costs would be nice. I am familiar enough with Linux to install and use it (as I have with my desktop).

I'd like a near-top-of-the-line [nice, but sensibly priced] model that I could dual boot. I would even entertain an Apple laptop if it gave me a good interface with Unix.

I was wondering what people may recommend as far as models or companies to purchase from. Any links to websites that talk about this are appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
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As a computer engineering student I am sure you are familiar with the concept of searching. Test that theory by putting it in action.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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A friend of mine just bought a Centrino Thinkpad and it works alright, everything but the modem but I don't think he's even tried the modem.
I own an Alienware because they have nVidia cards as an option, again everything but the modem works fine and I've never tried to get the modem working. Before this I had a dell and everything worked in it.
A bunch of the people who hang out in #linux in irc.arstechnica.com just bought Fujitsu notebooks, supposedly they work well too.

The thing that will probbaly give you the most problems is ACPI and you'll have a hard time finding out whether that works well or not without trying it for yourself.
 

walla

Senior member
Jun 2, 2001
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n0cmonkey - You've helped me in the past. So I'm sorry my apparent lack of searching has summoned a need for your sardonic suggestion.

I know there is a lot of information about specific linux disto's, specific laptops. I really just wanted a feel for what was a popular choice for tech-savvy users. Perhaps if there is a website that gives reviews for current laptops and how well they work with linux...that kind of information is appreciated.

So far I have heard good things about the Thinkpad. But I have seen some of the latest Dell Inspirons in actions and have been impressed with those too. I've heard of Mac X OS having support for Unix, but can't think of a compelling reason to buy an apple laptop over an x86 machine - though it is curiously popular among some geeks. Why is that?

Also, I am worried about any possible warranty issues regarding installing your own OS. Do some companies enforce this type of warranty? Which ones?

As far as ACPI compatibility - I've read that Suse 9.x works well, infact thats the distro I use on my desktop and probably be the one I'd use on a laptop.

Anyway, thanks for any opinions.
 

ColKurtz

Senior member
Dec 20, 2002
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IMO, Thinkpads are consistently a step above other notebooks. I have had a Dell and several Thinkpads, my wife has an HP, my Dad has a Sony and a Dell. There's just something solid about a Thinkpad. And IBM has embraced Linux more than any other major vendor (though mostly in the server space). I would recommend a T42p - it's what I'm running right now. A very nice balance of performance and portability.

I am running Linux on it (several distros, actually), but on an XP VMware host so I don't have any advice about native driver support.

You're probably safe whatever you choose. The site Linux on Laptops might be helpful for you once you make your choice.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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IMO, Thinkpads are consistently a step above other notebooks.

Except for the fact that they have ATI cards.

And IBM has embraced Linux more than any other major vendor (though mostly in the server space)

But AFAIK they don't do any special for the notebooks.

 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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Definately IBM Thinkpads are not going to be the optimal laptop for Linux.

Laptops are funny.. Almost none of the laptops 'OEM's like Dell, IBM, Gateway and probably even Alienware make their own laptops. They buy their laptops 'bare bones' style from 'ODM's usually located in southeast Asia. They add the CPU, the harddrive, and then the OS.

So many of the times you can find generic or smaller brand that has the same exact parts as the big guys, since they all buy it from the same place. Sometimes they have cosmetic differences to disguise the similarities and such, but internally they are the same.

There are places that do sell Linux laptops/notebooks. Places that sell 'namebrand' notebooks with Linux installed on them are a bit of a rip-off becaue then they'd just buy it from Dell, remove windows, then install Linux on it.

Now linux has ok laptop support nowadays, especially now since the Intel supports Linux for 'centrino' style notebooks.

So that leaves you with a few choices.


Intel-based i855 video cards are supported OK. Each manufacturer has their own Bios they put on things sometimes that can cause issues. So go to http://www.linux-laptop.net/ and check out peoples reviews.

they are the standard shared-memory designs for adiquate desktop usage. Very limited for games or 3d performance, require some tweaking to get good performance from playing DVDs and such.

They have the advantage of being supported by open source drivers.

Intel is now, I beleive, starting to sell i915-based notebooks more and more now. These are new, however Intel released the specs to the people at the DRI project a LONG time ago and it should have good 3d support right now. But since they are new would expect some issues and some power management issues until people have had more time on them to get rid of the bugs. However they are suppose to have much better performance then the i855 stuff, although I don't know for certain.

You'd find these most commonly in low end small laptops or the very thin and light catagories due to their small form factor and low energy needs...

like HP's Linux laptop


For video cards if you need some 3d performance you have open source support for ATI cards up to the 9200 models, and it should work out of the box.

A good example is Dell's 600m models, which are suppose to be good linux laptops.
see here

It has a ATI 9000 and a good display. While slow by modern gaming standards it's quite a nice improvement over i855 cards and has dedicated 32megs video card memory. (check out Dell's refurb website. you can find them at a low price.)


If you need more power and don't need much in the way of mobility, then the desktop replacement with AMD64 proccessor, Via chipset, and Nvidia video card is the way to go. They are small enough to carry around on trips and such, they have good enough batteries for limited times away from powerplugs, but they aren't something your going to want to lug around from class to class.

Be sure to check out http://www.linux-laptop.net/ for reviews on different laptops.

Also check out places like http://www.powernotebooks.com/ that actually do sell Linux laptops. Some are very high quality. Some are crap.

http://tuxmobil.org/reseller.html
http://tuxmobil.org/laptop_oem.html


Personally I lbought a Apple Ibook.. because I wanted a PowerPC, no linux company had any small form factor at anywere nearly a acceptable/affordable price, because in a choice between buying a book with Windows XP vs OS X I'd rather choose OS X.

But there are sucky things about. No java plugins, no flash plugins. Closed source software won't work 90% of the time. No PCMCIA slot, no wifi in Linux. Good 3d performance though and good battery life, small well built and actually pretty cheap for what it is.

Otherwise I would of gotten a Dell 600m, I think. I wanted something fairly small.

edit:

With a Dell 600m you should have the option of either using the free software DRI drivers or the ATI closed source stuff. Also pay attention to what wifi card you choose, the Intel centrino is desirable (from what I've heard, but I haven't used it) over the others because it's support now with open source drivers (which previously it wasn't for a long time.). If you end up with a broadcom unit then the only choice is to use Windows drivers thru the ndiswrapper.

In general for most laptops for the touchpad you'd want to install those drivers to get some of the more advanced features. Last time I used it there was no need to patch the kernel to use them in 2.6. They are for the Synaptics touchpad, which is what most manufacturers use in their laptops. (not to be confused with the synaptics front end for Apt-get)

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
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Definately IBM Thinkpads are not going to be the optimal laptop for Linux.

No laptop will be optimal, but Thinkpads work just as well as any other laptop.

But there are sucky things about. No java plugins, no flash plugins. Closed source software won't work 90% of the time. No PCMCIA slot, no wifi in Linux

And a sh!tty touchpad with only 1 button. But the wifi should work, at least the wifi in my friend's G4 tower works fine and I would believe they have to be close.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
Definately IBM Thinkpads are not going to be the optimal laptop for Linux.

No laptop will be optimal, but Thinkpads work just as well as any other laptop.


sometimes. Always check the reviews before buying one. Some models are better then others...

But there are sucky things about. No java plugins, no flash plugins. Closed source software won't work 90% of the time. No PCMCIA slot, no wifi in Linux

And a sh!tty touchpad with only 1 button. But the wifi should work, at least the wifi in my friend's G4 tower works fine and I would believe they have to be close.
[/quote]

Well that's one of the nice things about thinkpad, the 3 buttons.

I use a small trackball personally (no surface needed like a mouse). Never liked the touchpad on any laptop... The extra 2 buttons get taken care of in a acceptable manner thru keyboard "button emulation". Also there are pbbuttonsd deamons that actually do a very nice job of letting you use volume buttons and stuff like that in your laptop.

The 802.11g that gets sold in newer ibooks, the 'Airport Extreme' stuff, is a broadcom unit. No linux drivers anywere.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
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I have a boldata M37EW (based on a Sager). I have everything I need working under gentoo. Touchpad works, my USB wireless mouse works, Fn key works with the brighten/unbrighten the screen (haven't set up the volume control with it yet... I could get it to work I'm just lazy. It's okay though cause I can still control the volume via software). ATI 3D accel works as well as it does. ACPI/speedstep work. Wireless works like a dream. It actually works better in linux than it does in windows.
 

xcript

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2003
8,258
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Originally posted by: silverpig
I have everything I need working under gentoo.
Same here (on a Compaq R3210CA).

The only annoyance is that I have to use ndiswrapper for the built-in wireless.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
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81
Originally posted by: xcript
Originally posted by: silverpig
I have everything I need working under gentoo.
Same here (on a Compaq R3210CA).

The only annoyance is that I have to use ndiswrapper for the built-in wireless.

Intel Pro here :)

modprobe ipw2200
dhcpcd eth1

:)
 
Feb 9, 2005
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IBM THink Pad. I have one old 390X that ran debian fine, as well as Knoppix. I also have a newer T42 in my shop that was able to boot knoppix and worked on the network with both the NIC and Wirless fine. I think most newer laptops will be able to run fine with one or 2 problem mpieces of hardware that will give you trouble. Those troublesome pieces will teach you the things you need to learn about linux anyway. Especialy if you plan to dual boot. I like the thinkpads now cause they are tanks and for the most part freindly to component upgrades, (harddrives, ram, dvd, etc.) Dell's are nice two especialy the Inspiron 9200 series. Nice srcreens. I have yet to load a distro on one yet though.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
drag posted the links you would have gotten with 1 minute worth of work in google.

SSSHHHH!!!!

Don't let them know my secret!
 

walla

Senior member
Jun 2, 2001
987
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Well thank everyone for their opinions on this matter.

Believe it or not, I did google this before posting here and came up with many of the same links. It has a lot of information about compatibility, but it is written on a per-model basis. That is a bit overwhelming for someone who knows nothing about laptop brands or models :)

Also, from what I've gathered...Intel Centrino may be the best in terms of battery life and on par with athon offerings as far as performance...however,more expensive as usual.

What I would like to know is, are there any major issues regarding Centrino and linux? I have read that Intel support for this is unofficial, and perhaps incomplete regarding WLAN compatibility. However, drag mentions that this support is improving.

And another question thats been bugging me...I've seen Pentium IV 3.2GHz+ processors advertised in laptops. The Pentium M Centrino is boasting something like 1.7~2.1GHz. I know that clock speed != performance, but what is the cause of this difference. I can imagine you'd want lower clock speed to reduce power consumption in general and that the Pentium M is probably more suited towards battery life. Is that about on target?

Also...I am a bit confused about XGA vs SXGA vs UXGA. Are there any opinions as to which may be "better"?

Thanks again
 

WobbleWobble

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
4,867
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Originally posted by: silverpig
Originally posted by: xcript
Originally posted by: silverpig
I have everything I need working under gentoo.
Same here (on a Compaq R3210CA).

The only annoyance is that I have to use ndiswrapper for the built-in wireless.

Intel Pro here :)

modprobe ipw2200
dhcpcd eth1

:)

Yes, I have my ipw2200 working as well. Links to IPW2200 liinux drivers.

No wrapper required. It's still steps behind the IPW2100 drivers as it only just got initial WPA support and doesn't support monitor mode.

As with ATI support in Linux, their drivers are definately not as good nVidia's ones but they will work if you are willing to put some effort into it. And that's only if you want 3D acceleration. Basic out of the box video support should be supported by most distributions using the MESA drivers.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
81
Originally posted by: walla
Well thank everyone for their opinions on this matter.

Believe it or not, I did google this before posting here and came up with many of the same links. It has a lot of information about compatibility, but it is written on a per-model basis. That is a bit overwhelming for someone who knows nothing about laptop brands or models :)

Also, from what I've gathered...Intel Centrino may be the best in terms of battery life and on par with athon offerings as far as performance...however,more expensive as usual.

What I would like to know is, are there any major issues regarding Centrino and linux? I have read that Intel support for this is unofficial, and perhaps incomplete regarding WLAN compatibility. However, drag mentions that this support is improving.

And another question thats been bugging me...I've seen Pentium IV 3.2GHz+ processors advertised in laptops. The Pentium M Centrino is boasting something like 1.7~2.1GHz. I know that clock speed != performance, but what is the cause of this difference. I can imagine you'd want lower clock speed to reduce power consumption in general and that the Pentium M is probably more suited towards battery life. Is that about on target?

Also...I am a bit confused about XGA vs SXGA vs UXGA. Are there any opinions as to which may be "better"?

Thanks again

XGA = 1024x768
SXGA = 1280x1024 (or x960?)
UXGA = 1600x1200

Then there are the "W" screens

WSXGA+ = 1680x1050
WUXGA = 1920x1200

I say go for the best screen you can. You can always add memory, change the hard drive, change the optical drive, and even swap out the cpu, but you're stuck with the screen.

I went 15.4" WUXGA and I'm in love.
 

calyco

Senior member
Oct 7, 2004
825
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Personally I didnt have much trouble with the hardware on a few modern laptops ie. Dell, IBM etc., they worked fine on the popular distros like Fedora and Suse. Like Nothinman said already depending on the distro, the only thing that might give you a problem is acpi.
 

WobbleWobble

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
4,867
1
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Originally posted by: silverpig

XGA = 1024x768
SXGA = 1280x1024 (or x960?)
UXGA = 1600x1200

Then there are the "W" screens

WSXGA+ = 1680x1050
WUXGA = 1920x1200

I say go for the best screen you can. You can always add memory, change the hard drive, change the optical drive, and even swap out the cpu, but you're stuck with the screen.

I went 15.4" WUXGA and I'm in love.

Don't forget SXGA+ = 1400x1050

I have a WUXGA myself and sometimes wish I would have got the WSXGA screen as the WUXGA can be a bit small at times.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
81
Yeah, there are a few I left out...

For WUXGA there are a few things. If you run windows you can just increase to the 120 dpi fonts. Also firefox allows you to change the size of fonts by holding down ctrl and then scrolling up and down with the mouse.
 

bersl2

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2004
1,617
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Mmm... dumping, disassembling, debugging, and reassembling the DSDT table: fun for the whole family! ;)