Linux and BSD

[n0cmonkey]

Linus compares the Linux and BSD kernels.
BSD devs on Linux

 

[nweaver]

good reading. Thanks for the links N0c

 

[Sunner]

Theo was unusually...polite

 

[Nothinman]

IMO both of those articles are crap. I read the Linus on a few days ago and thought "what was the point to this?" and having just read the Theo/Christos one I'm thinking the same thing.

And of course everyone answers the questions as expected, with broad views since none of them have used the other systems. Theo is a dick and concentrates on licensing and "problems" in Linux development while Christos is more diplomatic and seems more knowledgable about Linux but still manages to slip some jabs in there about how he feels that NetBSD is more stable and has a cleaner source tree.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman
IMO both of those articles are crap. I read the Linus on a few days ago and thought "what was the point to this?" and having just read the Theo/Christos one I'm thinking the same thing.

And of course everyone answers the questions as expected, with broad views since none of them have used the other systems. Theo is a dick and concentrates on licensing and "problems" in Linux development while Christos is more diplomatic and seems more knowledgable about Linux but still manages to slip some jabs in there about how he feels that NetBSD is more stable and has a cleaner source tree.

You expect people that spend, most likely, ungodly hours with their respective projects to just praise another project or ignore their own opinions? To Theo the unfree GPL is a problem, and the development issues are a real concern.

Linus had his own opinions, that probably aren't entirely popular in the BSD world.

Over all it was a waste of time, but much better than this linux centric interview of Theo.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Sunner
Theo was unusually...polite

Generally, I don't think Theo is impolite. He's just a bit manic and VERY direct. People get freaked out by that.

 

[Nothinman]

You expect people that spend, most likely, ungodly hours with their respective projects to just praise another project or ignore their own opinions?

No, which is why I didn't know what the point of the article was. The only person who didn't straight up say he's never used the other projects was Christos. Why would you ask someone their opinion about something they've never used?

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

You expect people that spend, most likely, ungodly hours with their respective projects to just praise another project or ignore their own opinions?

No, which is why I didn't know what the point of the article was. The only person who didn't straight up say he's never used the other projects was Christos. Why would you ask someone their opinion about something they've never used?

I'm not sure. I figured Linus would have used a BSD way back in the day. Theo's come out and said he's never used Linux on more than one occassion.

But some of the developers might still pay attention to the other projects. The BSD developers pay attention to each other for inspiration or code. I guess they could get inspiration from the Linux kernel, at least.

 

[Nothinman]

I'm not sure. I figured Linus would have used a BSD way back in the day. Theo's come out and said he's never used Linux on more than one occassion.

Back in the day BSD was in the middle of their lawsuit and I think the only other freely available unix at the time was minix which is what he started Linux on.

But some of the developers might still pay attention to the other projects. The BSD developers pay attention to each other for inspiration or code. I guess they could get inspiration from the Linux kernel, at least.

Some bigger things like the OpenBSD wifi debacle will affect everyone, but just from watching lkml I don't think that's true of the Linux developers in general. Once in a while someone will post "Hey, xBSD is doing doing Y and I think Linux should too!" and then they'll discuss whether it's a good idea for Linux or not. But overall I think the core kernel developers are too busy with Linux related stuff to spend time reading about what everyone else is doing.

It's like how in probably 75% of the interviews with Linus they end up saying "So what do you think about MS developing X?" and he always says "I don't know, I don't use Windows and don't pay attention to MS products", you would think they would get the hint.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Some bigger things like the OpenBSD wifi debacle will affect everyone,

What debacle? All I've seen is OpenBSD promoting freedom while everyone else bends over.

but just from watching lkml I don't think that's true of the Linux developers in general. Once in a while someone will post "Hey, xBSD is doing doing Y and I think Linux should too!" and then they'll discuss whether it's a good idea for Linux or not. But overall I think the core kernel developers are too busy with Linux related stuff to spend time reading about what everyone else is doing.

It's like how in probably 75% of the interviews with Linus they end up saying "So what do you think about MS developing X?" and he always says "I don't know, I don't use Windows and don't pay attention to MS products", you would think they would get the hint.

I didn't mean all of the developers. I think there are some though that pay attention to what other projects are doing. I don't just mean the people that just post on lists, but the people that get work done too. I'm sure Linus is a busy guy, maybe one of the other "well known" developers would have been a better choice. Same with Theo.

 

[Nothinman]

What debacle? All I've seen is OpenBSD promoting freedom while everyone else bends over.

I meant them fighting to get firmware redistribution rights.

 

[Cobalt]

WTF Christos is my name. I'm pretty sure Zoulas is Greek. /OT

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

You expect people that spend, most likely, ungodly hours with their respective projects to just praise another project or ignore their own opinions?

No, which is why I didn't know what the point of the article was. The only person who didn't straight up say he's never used the other projects was Christos. Why would you ask someone their opinion about something they've never used?

Well he didn't say it straight up, but the implication was there:

Torvalds: I certainly don't have any specifics, but that's not saying that I'd be against it. It just means that I don't know anything about BSD technical internals, so I'm the wrong person to ask. Ask somebody who uses both.

 

[n0cmonkey]

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html">
"You know what I found? Right in the kernel, in the heart of the operating system, I found a developer's comment that said, 'Does this belong here?' "Lok says. "What kind of confidence does that inspire? Right then I knew it was time to switch." </a>

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html">
"You know what I found? Right in the kernel, in the heart of the operating system, I found a developer's comment that said, 'Does this belong here?' "Lok says. "What kind of confidence does that inspire? Right then I knew it was time to switch." </a>

What's the point in linking that article? Two people came off looking dumb from that one: Theo de Raadt for being uptight and close-minded (as expected) and the author for pulling whatever dirty tricks he can to make anything open source look bad.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: kamper

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html">
"You know what I found? Right in the kernel, in the heart of the operating system, I found a developer's comment that said, 'Does this belong here?' "Lok says. "What kind of confidence does that inspire? Right then I knew it was time to switch." </a>

What's the point in linking that article? Two people came off looking dumb from that one: Theo de Raadt for being uptight and close-minded (as expected) and the author for pulling whatever dirty tricks he can to make anything open source look bad.

How does Theo look uptight and close-minded?

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: kamper

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html">
"You know what I found? Right in the kernel, in the heart of the operating system, I found a developer's comment that said, 'Does this belong here?' "Lok says. "What kind of confidence does that inspire? Right then I knew it was time to switch." </a>

What's the point in linking that article? Two people came off looking dumb from that one: Theo de Raadt for being uptight and close-minded (as expected) and the author for pulling whatever dirty tricks he can to make anything open source look bad.

How does Theo look uptight and close-minded?

Originally posted by: Theo de Raadt
It's terrible, everyone is using it, and they don't realize how bad it is. And the Linux people will just stick with it and add to it rather than stepping back and saying, 'This is garbage and we should fix it.'

And other such comments. It's fair enough for him to point out that the OpenBSD team leans more towards correctness than features but I think this is going a little to the extreme, especially for someone who has never even tried linux out. There's room in the world for more than one style of software development.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: kamper

Originally posted by: Theo de Raadt
It's terrible, everyone is using it, and they don't realize how bad it is. And the Linux people will just stick with it and add to it rather than stepping back and saying, 'This is garbage and we should fix it.'

And other such comments. It's fair enough for him to point out that the OpenBSD team leans more towards correctness than features but I think this is going a little to the extreme, especially for someone who has never even tried linux out. There's room in the world for more than one style of software development.

He's opinionated, not closed minded. He never seems to be uptight, just knows that the right way to do things is... Well, if I have to spell it out.

Here he is in an email to misc@:

If the Linux people actually cared about Quality, as we do, they would
not have had as many localhost kernel security holes in the last year.

How many is it... 20 so far?

I can see clearly now.... :sun:

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
He's opinionated, not closed minded. He never seems to be uptight, just knows that the right way to do things is... Well, if I have to spell it out.

I'd agree with you if he would at least acknowledge that there are other ways to develop software. I think his approach is great but I don't think it's the best. Stating outright that linux is garbage is a load of crap.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: kamper

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
He's opinionated, not closed minded. He never seems to be uptight, just knows that the right way to do things is... Well, if I have to spell it out.

I'd agree with you if he would at least acknowledge that there are other ways to develop software. I think his approach is great but I don't think it's the best. Stating outright that linux is garbage is a load of crap.

It isn't crap, it's an opinion, and they generally smell like crap, but don't be deceived.

There are plenty of ways to develop software, I think he admits that. It's just that the others are wrong.

Not really, I think the problem is the final product. Linus doesn't care about the quality of Linux, where as Theo thinks the quality of OpenBSD is important. Two different mind sets from two meglomaniacs.

 

[Nothinman]

He's opinionated, not closed minded

The problem is that he's opinionated on thing's he's never even used.

Not really, I think the problem is the final product. Linus doesn't care about the quality of Linux, where as Theo thinks the quality of OpenBSD is important. Two different mind sets from two meglomaniacs.

The difference is that Linus isn't a meglomaniac, Linux was spawned because there was nothing else readily available while OpenBSD was forked because Theo can't get along with people. And it's not fair to say that Linus doesn't care about the quality of Linux, it's his namesake so of course he does. But there's so much more in there that he can't waste time studying every patch that is up for inclusion otherwise development would grind to a halt.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

He's opinionated, not closed minded

The problem is that he's opinionated on thing's he's never even used.

I've never used a bicycle without a seat, but I realize it's not for me.

The difference is that Linus isn't a meglomaniac, Linux was spawned because there was nothing else readily available while OpenBSD was forked because Theo can't get along with people. And it's not fair to say that Linus doesn't care about the quality of Linux, it's his namesake so of course he does. But there's so much more in there that he can't waste time studying every patch that is up for inclusion otherwise development would grind to a halt.

Linus is as much of a meglomaniac as the rest. Theo gets along with people just fine, some people are thin skinned and pee themselves when confronted with directness.

f the Linux people actually cared about Quality, as we do, they would
not have had as many localhost kernel security holes in the last year.

How many is it... 20 so far?

feature feature feature feature feature feature r00t yay :laugh:

 

[n0cmonkey]

This one (free registration required or possibly forbesdontbug or try bugmenot.com) is supposed to be less inflamatory. Reading it now.

 

[kamper]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I've never used a bicycle without a seat, but I realize it's not for me.

I haven't eaten olives in years because I vaguely remember not liking the taste of them when I was little but I don't go around denouncing them as inedible

 

[Nothinman]

I've never used a bicycle without a seat, but I realize it's not for me.

Don't knock it till you've tried it =)

Linus is as much of a meglomaniac as the rest. Theo gets along with people just fine, some people are thin skinned and pee themselves when confronted with directness.

Right, everyone know's how great of a guy Theo is.

feature feature feature feature feature feature r00t yay

One of the costs of having such fast development is obviously coding errors, that's why it's always recommended to use a vendor provided kernel. There's no denying that things couldn't be better, but I'm fine with them as they are. All of my Linux boxes are mine alone, so local exploits don't matter much to me. I'd rather follow Linux kernel development and get all the nice features than install something like FreeBSD and feel like I'm back in 1985.