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Linus Torvalds agrees: Vista is bloatware!

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Mind if you give me any of that coffee?

Aero = OS X Aqua
Search = OS X Spotlight
Live taskbar thumbnails = Linux Beryl/Compiz
Windows Flip 2D and Windows Flip 3D = 2D - OS X Aqua 3D - Unique!
User Account Control = Unix (OS X) & Linux
IE7 = Firefox
Gadgets and Sidebar = OS X Widgets

Only thing really new is Super Fetch and ReadyBoost
All the other features are just upgraded enhancements on other older versions of Windows.

Sorry, but there isn't that much.

Silly argument on both sides, imo. All operating systems stand on the shoulders of work done by others, all the way back to the conception of what an operating system is. Alan Kay actually invented much of the UI candy that Apple is credited with while he was at Xerox PARC. Dave Cutler built VMS, and a few other systems, for DEC long before he architected NT. And I don't think I need to prove that Linus didn't start from conceptual scratch either.
 
Originally posted by: Looney
Well i would somewhat agree... i don't think Vista will change the way we work. But neither did Linux or OSX change the way i work either.

However, i think there's a chance that Vista and the 360 with Live Anywhere can possibly affect our lives. MS is the one company that can integrate our mobile phones, TVs, internet, computers, telephone, etc together. Of course people will complain about monopolizing powers and such, but i say it's about time the promised 'convergence' is delivered... although about 5-10 years late.

Maybe.

The problem is that people that own the movie studios, telephone companies, tv channels, etc etc don't want 'convergence'. There is nothing in it for them and it would put their corporations to the complete mercy of Microsoft, just like it has done to people like Dell, HP, or Gateway. That's not a very attractive position to be in.

Plus although you and I like having the convience a computer can give us people still relatively like having descrete componates. They generally like having a seperate DVD player, seperate DVR, and having a seperate television. For them and their purposes having all these bits and peices are easier and friendlier to deal with. And in addition generally they do their jobs better individually then a computer can collectively.

It's like the fellow that wrote that 'true cost of drm in vista' article; Why on earth do you want Microsoft to inflict all these new restrictions on a OS, increase the cost and complexity of hardware, lower performance, and close everything off just to play movies when you can get (say in a few years) a 50 dollar player from some company in China or Korea and get better results?
 
Originally posted by: JonnyBlaze
Originally posted by: Quinton McLeod
I agree with him. There's seriously nothing new with Vista and it doesn't change the way people access their media.

Vista also intrudes on people's privacy and strips the users ownership of their own computers.
not really. it just makes it so you cant play a hi-def protected source at full res. for the 98% of us that dont own equipment to play HD stuff anyways why does it matter?

all my movies & music i have play just fine.


for now. the same restrictions that Vista makes possible for high definition video can easily be expanded to other media, or any function for that matter.

The point is not what happens today, it's the change in direction/focus of the purpose of an operating system, from enabler, to gatekeeper.



 
Maybe if linux distros of all types could unite and make one Linux setup and create a good easy way to install programs instead of being stuck with the damn source code to compile itself if there is no package handler I'd be using Linux too.
 
I took his meaning as, there is no real need to upgrade to Vista, and if you want too, you may require faster hardware to do it. While Linux is ready with the hardware you have now.

If it helps, John Carmack says the same thing -
Carmack on Vista DX10

I'm building a new rig next month, sticking with dual boot WinXP / Ubuntu.
 
his Linux has become as bad bloatware as well... Both GNOME and KDE come with zillion of service and apps running on boot time. Just enough to say: bluetooth. I don't have bluetooth controller at all, yet SUSE + Fedora insist on installing it and load it on boot time.

It is just reality. There's so much software and hardware that OS is bound to be bloatware if it is designed to ease customer's use of hw and sw.

Of course, there could be lean and mean OS, such as Windows 2000, but it doesn't have much of user base. Perhaps OSX is better in that way because hw is not a variable.
 
The point is not what happens today, it's the change in direction/focus of the purpose of an operating system, from enabler, to gatekeeper

The operating system has always been a gatekeeper of sorts, but leaving that aside, it's obvious from your repeated statements on this and other threads that you just don't like the idea of a protected content path. Fine, so don't play any protected content. Buy CDs and rip them if that's your preference. There is no protected path for content now, and strangely enough, we can't get our hands (legally) on the best content in digital form. When will there be an online market for streaming high-def first run movies? When will you be able to access any new song that is hitting the charts and get a copy to play on your PC or device? When will publishers release new books in digital form?

In your world, never.
 
Originally posted by: Markbnj
The point is not what happens today, it's the change in direction/focus of the purpose of an operating system, from enabler, to gatekeeper

The operating system has always been a gatekeeper of sorts, but leaving that aside, it's obvious from your repeated statements on this and other threads that you just don't like the idea of a protected content path. Fine, so don't play any protected content. Buy CDs and rip them if that's your preference. There is no protected path for content now, and strangely enough, we can't get our hands (legally) on the best content in digital form. When will there be an online market for streaming high-def first run movies? When will you be able to access any new song that is hitting the charts and get a copy to play on your PC or device? When will publishers release new books in digital form?

In your world, never.

I don't agree with you. My opinion is this scheme is in Vista because it's easy, and Microsoft wants to do it. Not because it's the only way to protect content.

My objection is with changing the focus of the pc from a device whose potential is only limited by innovation, to a device that facilitates one industries' paranoid vision of what is in their best interest.

your examples are strange, it is possible to get books, music, and movies in digital form, right now. The only reason movies aren't widely available in HD is because there isn't much demand for them, not because Vista hasn't been released yet.

 
your examples are strange, it is possible to get books, music, and movies in digital form, right now. The only reason movies aren't widely available in HD is because there isn't much demand for them, not because Vista hasn't been released yet.
A good example would be audio. Any audiophile cringes at the thought of MP3/OGG. Yet these are the formats that rule the market. They were not forced on consumers at all (manufactures were in fact quite slow to support them). Most tellingly, this was/is a transition from a higher def format (cd audio). Consumers want something "good enough" and for them mp3 at a reasonable bitrate is it. I suspect the same holds true with DVD quality video; "its good enough, why should I pay a premium for something better when I can barely tell the difference?"
 
your examples are strange, it is possible to get books, music, and movies in digital form, right now. The only reason movies aren't widely available in HD is because there isn't much demand for them, not because Vista hasn't been released yet.

If you really think that the reason movies aren't "widely available" in HD (and recall I said "streaming"; I'm not talking about hi-def discs) is because there's no market for them, then you're just not paying attention to any aspect of the situation that matters. Studios are not going to permit hi-def content to be streamed online until there is a protected path for it.

You conveniently ignore all the other qualifiers I used "new," "first-run," etc. No new books are immediately available online. Steve King tried it five years ago and quickly grew disillusioned by the rampant copying and low number of donations. There are some songs available, from indie labels. Nothing that you hear on the radio (if that matters, which it does to a few million consumers). No first-run movies.

So you like the cable company and telecom monopolies on content, I guess? You must, since you're voting for them to continue to be the only out-of-theater venue for first-run digital content.


 
Originally posted by: Aberforth
This is so stupid, what choice Linus Torvalds has got? Ha can't say "Yes, Windows Vista is a great OS. Buy it" can he??? Asking wrong person for the opinion 😀......What a pointless thread

QFT
 
his Linux has become as bad bloatware as well... Both GNOME and KDE come with zillion of service and apps running on boot time. Just enough to say: bluetooth. I don't have bluetooth controller at all, yet SUSE + Fedora insist on installing it and load it on boot time.

Agreed, Ubuntu too, and if you put down the service, KDE simply crash. A Suck. all distros are insisting on this strange behavior and can possibly lead to opinions like that. Bluetooth where isn´t needed is a problem. But we can use xfce, fluxbox, fastpace.
The problem is that the most versatile ambient that I´ve found is KDE, But I don´t have blurtooth too.
 
Maybe if linux distros of all types could unite and make one Linux setup and create a good easy way to install programs instead of being stuck with the damn source code to compile itself if there is no package handler I'd be using Linux too.

So you think removing competition will spur innovation? That seems completely backwards to me...

And I haven't had to compile anything from source for a very long time.

his Linux has become as bad bloatware as well... Both GNOME and KDE come with zillion of service and apps running on boot time. Just enough to say: bluetooth. I don't have bluetooth controller at all, yet SUSE + Fedora insist on installing it and load it on boot time.

But you can remove whatever you want after the installation, that's definitely not true of Windows.
 
Originally posted by: Markbnj
The point is not what happens today, it's the change in direction/focus of the purpose of an operating system, from enabler, to gatekeeper

The operating system has always been a gatekeeper of sorts, but leaving that aside, it's obvious from your repeated statements on this and other threads that you just don't like the idea of a protected content path. Fine, so don't play any protected content. Buy CDs and rip them if that's your preference. There is no protected path for content now, and strangely enough, we can't get our hands (legally) on the best content in digital form. When will there be an online market for streaming high-def first run movies? When will you be able to access any new song that is hitting the charts and get a copy to play on your PC or device? When will publishers release new books in digital form?

In your world, never.

They'll publish them alright, if there is a demand.

People seem to have all this stuff backwards, it's the corporations and businesses that are there to serve the needs and wants of their customers. Average people do not exist to serve the needs and wants of the corporations.

 
People seem to have all this stuff backwards, it's the corporations and businesses that are there to serve the needs and wants of their customers. Average people do not exist to serve the needs and wants of the corporations.

I almost always respect your point of view here, but I don't understand this statement. Corporations aren't some sort of virtual evil entity. They're just a bunch of people working collaboratively to sell stuff. The business model has to make sense going in both directions. You guys almost sound like it's immoral for the content producers to _not_ want to release their stuff in freely copyable form. They know, and you know, that it would be widely available, for free, almost instantaneously. If you don't think that's holding back the open availability of such content, then I think you're wrong. As I said before, anyone who hates the idea of a protected path for content on the PC is voting for the continued monopoly of the cable providers and telecomms over that content. The producers who spend millions creating it will simply opt for the existing controlled delivery pipe, where they get a slice of the revenue. So would you, in their place.
 
I almost always respect your point of view here, but I don't understand this statement. Corporations aren't some sort of virtual evil entity. They're just a bunch of people working collaboratively to sell stuff.

Well it's fine, I do like business and big business is nessicary.

The business model has to make sense going in both directions.

That does happen already. They produce the copyrighted material, or at least provide important services for the artists that are the ones that are doing the actual work, and the government makes it illegal to violate that copyright. I don't see why that has to extend to changing how computers work. This DRM stuff is a grasp for power in a world were they already have a lot of it. As technology progresses the old technologists flip out and try to change the rules to keep themselves in power.

This happenned with the advent of recording equipment. Previously the companies that had a monopoly on music and such were people that produced printed copies of music, and they flipped out and tried to pass laws and such to control the ability to have people record music. They claimed that this was pure piracy because a person could by one copy of their printed music, record a session of it, and sell that recording. Then the companies that made recordings eventually won out over the companies that made lots of money on print music.

This happenned again with the advent of radio. Companies that made recordings flipped out and called the radio people pirates because the radio people can buy one copy of recorded music and play it on the airwaves to many listenners. And like with the recording people over the paper music people, the radio people won out.

Each new type of technology came along it changed out people listenned to music, changed how people watched shows, and created all sorts of hugely positive benifits for society. But with DRM your attempting to subvert technology.

It's like Bruce Schneier's quote:
"Certainly much less time than it will take Microsoft and the recording industry to realize they're playing a losing game, and that trying to make digital files uncopyable is like trying to make water not wet."

The whole thing is a waste of time, waste of money, and waste of energy. At best if the DRM people succeed the absolute best they will do will hold technology back maybe 10 or 20 years.

You guys almost sound like it's immoral for the content producers to _not_ want to release their stuff in freely copyable form. They know, and you know, that it would be widely available, for free, almost instantaneously. If you don't think that's holding back the open availability of such content, then I think you're wrong. As I said before, anyone who hates the idea of a protected path for content on the PC is voting for the continued monopoly of the cable providers and telecomms over that content. The producers who spend millions creating it will simply opt for the existing controlled delivery pipe, where they get a slice of the revenue. So would you, in their place.

It's not that it's immoral to try to protect their copyrights, it's immoral to do it in the method that they are doing. It's just that it's very very retarded the way they are going about it. The 'protected path' thing is pure BS. A waste of time, and the cost to computer's and people's freedom is entirely not worth the placebic value it gives 'big media'. They are taking very complex, very flawed, technical approach to making it inconvient to copy files combined with government legislation to limit the damage they are causing to themselves.

Its going to happen anyways. The future is going to be easy to access services.

Think about it.. Now anybody that wants to can go down to the local blockbuster and make copies of DVDs all day long. There are people that fill their houses up with dubbed VCR tapes and copied DVDs like some insane person collecting moldy newspapers. Most people don't do that. Why? Because it's a pointless waste of time, easier, and ultimately cheaper to just re-rent the stupid movie if you want to watch it again. Who is going to fill up their harddrives with movies, go and buy servers, and fight with their ISPs over stealing content when they can pay some guy 30 bucks a month to allow them to stream any movie or tv show ever made? (only compulsive pirates do this sort of thing..) Seriously, the problem isn't going to be trying to prevent piracy, people are going to fight over the ability to provide user's media and such to fill up consumer's limited leisure time.

The sooner these corporate types figure this stuff out then the sooner DRM is going to be relegated to the backwards technology graveyard.
 
I don't quite understand why people refer to Linux as being bloated, then bringing up KDE and Gnome.
Linux = the kernel, which is what Linus works on, it's not like Linus decides what goes into Fedora or Ubuntu.
Besides, there are plenty of lightweight distros that'll run just fine on crappy hardware.
 
Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
Maybe if linux distros of all types could unite and make one Linux setup and create a good easy way to install programs instead of being stuck with the damn source code to compile itself if there is no package handler I'd be using Linux too.

Wow....welcome to 1995. I haven't handled source compiles in several weeks, and even then, it was to get a newer version from CVS that offered a new feature I wanted to use, otherwise it's off to apt-get land I go....much easier then windows world BY FAR!
 
The whole thing is a waste of time, waste of money, and waste of energy. At best if the DRM people succeed the absolute best they will do will hold technology back maybe 10 or 20 years.

This quote probably sums up your point best. The whole message, to be honest with you, reads exactly as if the word "immoral" that I used earlier is actually the term that makes the most sense for you. It's their money, their time, and their content, and if it turns out they were wrong then it's no skin off any of our noses. DRM and protected path technology don't change the way Vista works for those of us who don't play protected content, despite a lot of FUD to the contrary. So if this stab at creating a new marketplace doesn't work, then the producers and software vendors who bought in are the only ones who lose anything.

While I agree with you that it is ultimately impossible to keep bits from being copied, the fact remains that content producers in the video space, at least, already have a pretty secure pipe to get their stuff into homes and onto screens. They aren't going to give it up and start streaming expensive high-definition content onto the net anytime soon. So no, it won't happen without protections, by which I mean that the stuff most mainstream audiences want to see will not be available. I throw that in to ward off the inevitable example someone will come up with about some indie outlet. I'm talking about the mass market. What you apparently see as a misguided grab for power, I see as the best chance to break the monopoly of the cable providers and telecomms over content. In the world as I would like to see it Comcast will be just a data pipe provider, and what we think of as a "movie channel" will be an IP of a server. But it won't happen until there is a way for content producers to feel like they aren't just throwing their expensive assets out of an open window.
 
Until knowing how a computer works is standard, Linux will, unfortunately, remain in the background. And ATI won't upgrade their drivers either :|
 
Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
Maybe if linux distros of all types could unite and make one Linux setup...

Before I started using Linux I agreed with you. After actually using Linux I understand that one of the benefits is the diversity in all the different distros.


Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
...and create a good easy way to install programs instead of being stuck with the damn source code to compile itself if there is no package handler I'd be using Linux too.

That is such an invalid reason for not using Linux these days. I use Ubuntu and there's a GUI tool (Synaptic) that allows you to easily install additional programs. It is *much* easier to install software in Linux than Windows. Why? Because in almost every case you don't need media or keys or registration/activation.

I'm not saying it's easy to go from 10+ years of using Windows to Linux but it is possible and it's not that bad. It just takes some time and effort. I think a lot of us forget that we all had to learn Windows as well.

 
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
Maybe if linux distros of all types could unite and make one Linux setup...

Before I started using Linux I agreed with you. After actually using Linux I understand that one of the benefits is the diversity in all the different distros.


Actually, that may be a reality very very soon. They're already talking about standardizing Linux.

Link: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5508885157.html
 
Originally posted by: Cogman

Let me put it this way, Linux is NOT doing anything revolutionary as you put it, and as far as things go, Windows has changed a lot more things in it then linux has.

As for the "Linux is faster then windows" you put, that is just fanboy BS.


Linux 64 blows XP 64 bit out of the water.
I ran XP 64bit and Linux 64 bit. And Linux is faster than Windows

It would seem some people are quoting what they have read on forums and not actually something they tried.

It's about freedom of chioce but don't bash something you haven't tried yourself.
Both OS's have there good and bad points.
 
Actually, that may be a reality very very soon. They're already talking about standardizing Linux.

There have been standards bodies for Linux in place for a while now, the LSB has been around as long as I can remember. But that doesn't mean there's going to only be one distro in the future.
 
Originally posted by: Markbnj
your examples are strange, it is possible to get books, music, and movies in digital form, right now. The only reason movies aren't widely available in HD is because there isn't much demand for them, not because Vista hasn't been released yet.

If you really think that the reason movies aren't "widely available" in HD (and recall I said "streaming"; I'm not talking about hi-def discs) is because there's no market for them, then you're just not paying attention to any aspect of the situation that matters. Studios are not going to permit hi-def content to be streamed online until there is a protected path for it.

You conveniently ignore all the other qualifiers I used "new," "first-run," etc. No new books are immediately available online. Steve King tried it five years ago and quickly grew disillusioned by the rampant copying and low number of donations. There are some songs available, from indie labels. Nothing that you hear on the radio (if that matters, which it does to a few million consumers). No first-run movies.

So you like the cable company and telecom monopolies on content, I guess? You must, since you're voting for them to continue to be the only out-of-theater venue for first-run digital content.

I did not say there's "no market" for hd movies, i said there isn't much demand. Market penetration of HD tvs needs to get a lot higher to get near the level of demand that exists for regular dvds.

My point is about putting this DRM stuff in the core of Vista, I'd rather see it implemented in other ways, like in applications, so it doesn't interfere with innovation, in ways we can't foresee. That's part of innovation, if we knew what it was, it wouldn't be innovative.

There's a place for dumb media playing devices, but I don't particularly want it to be my pc.

btw, I'm not saying it's the end of the world this is in Vista, or companies are evil, I would just prefer not to have another layer of unnecessary crap that WILL cause unintended consequences.

 
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