Linksys WAP11

[b4rth3zz]

Hello,

I have a question about the Linksys Wireless Access Point "WAP11".
Maybe if there are owners of this access point on this board...

It's about a picture found on the Linksys website, section "Where it fits in my network".
On the left part of the picture, the 2 WAPs are set to access point client mode.

If I analyse this picture, I see an Access Point (Let's call this one 2) that is a client of another Access Point (let's call this one 1).
Access Point 1 is connected to the router and can communicate with the other Access Point as well as with other wireless devices.

The manual for WAP11 however says on page 17 that an Access Point Client cannot communicate directly with any wireless clients.

My question is : Which part of the "fits in network" picture is wrong?
Is it the mode type of Access Point 1 (does it have to be "Access Point" instead of "Access Point Client")?
Or can it be that the other wireless clients cannot make contact with the Access Points ?

Thx

 

[ktwebb]

My question is : Which part of the "fits in network" picture is wrong?

None of it.

Linksys's client mode is bridging to the AP. Linksys Client AP is also called a workgroup bridge when sold as a stand alone product. The WET11 is sold as a WGB. Well I think linksys just calls there's a bridge which is incorrect but the Linksys naming debacle is another thread entirely. When you configure a WAP11 in client mode it is a client of that AP just like a PCMCIA card would be in a laptop except that it allows data to be passed on through its ethernet port on the wire to wired nodes. To a machine with a hardwired NIC in it or a hub/switch that would allow multiple Hardwired machines to access the network via the wireless bridge from the CLient AP to the parent AP. Other wireless clients would communicate to the parent AP, not the Client AP (WGB) because it is basically creating a single wireless connection to the parent AP.

 

[rw120555]

If I analyse this picture, I see an Access Point (Let's call this one 2) that is a client of another Access Point (let's call this one 1).

Ktwebb -- See? See? Other people are confused by the Linksys diagrams too! (I was whining about this in another thread.)

Anyway, b4, why don't you tell us what it is you want to do, and maybe we can tell you how to do it.

 

[ktwebb]

Ok, I have removed the egg off my face.

The part that is incorrect b4rth3zz is that the AP that is connected to the router via a wire, cat5 patch cable or represented by a line in the drawing, should not have client mode in parentheses. My problem was I was not looking at the Text. If you have read some of my other posts I have a problem with the way Linksys uses their own specific 802.11b naming convention and I just tend to ignore WAP and Workgroup bridges listed as bridges. I am used to looking at wireless and wired network infrastructure diagrams, though most Visio drawings, and I just naturally look at the devices and in wireless cases the RF graphic. Anyway, you are both correct. The drawing is wrong. The parent AP has client mode added to the description and that is in error.

 

[b4rth3zz]

Anyway, b4, why don't you tell us what it is you want to do, and maybe we can tell you how to do it.

Well, I have 2 LANs. In the first room the computers are connected to a router with builtin switch, that is connected to my cable modem.
I have 3 computers, connected to a switch in another room.
I want to use 2 WAP11s to connect the two LANs, but I also want to have wireless functionality for other devices (a notebook).
I was wondering if I needed 3 WAPs instead of 2...

Thx for the answers. I already thought the text under the parent WAP was wrong, but wanted to be sure before I buy them. I don't want to end up having 2 or 3 WAPs that I can't use...

 

[rw120555]

This is funny, because I just got an email from Linksys with an attachment on bridging. I'm not sure if it is on the web or not. If you pm me I'll email it to you. In the scenario that I think you would use, you would need 3 WAPs, 2 configured as bridges and one configured as an access point.

BUT, for your purposes, you can get by with a WAP11 and a WET11, which is a wireless ethernet bridge. At least that is what they call it -- I think of it as a wireless client with an ethernet connector (as compared to, say, a wireless client card with a USB connector).

I think you can also get by with two WAP11s, one configured as an access point and the other as an access point client; but even if you go this route, download the reference guide for the WET11 so you can see the logic more clearly.

Set up your access point on one LAN (whichever one gives you the best placement for where you want to use your notebook). Then, on the other LAN, you set up your Wet11. The WET11 is connected to the same switch that the other computers are. So, the use of the WET11 (or, if you prefer, the WAP configured as a client card) has the same effect as running a long cable between your switch and your router. The WAP11 and the WET11 are configured to have same ssid on the same channel.

Is this semi-clear? Here is info on the WET11. If you look at the top half of this diagram, you'll see a setup almost exactly like I am describing (or at least hope I am describing). The one difference is the diagram uses a wireless router whereas you would have a router + WAP.

Good luck, write back if this doesn't do it (or if it is a smashing success, it would be interesting to hear that too).

 

[rw120555]

Oh, a few other things: Once you do this, you don't have 2 LANS anymore, you have one LAN.

Also, there are other ways you could connect your two networks while still having one WAP; for example, you could use HomePNA or HomePlug. An alternative method might be handy if you get get a lousy wireless signal between your two locations. Given that you want a WAP anyway I think the WAP11/WET11 setup is probably best, but if you find that connections between the two LAN areas is a problem, we could go over other altenratives.

This may sound weird, but I used HomePNA to make my WAP work better. The wap was by the router, which was a crummy location, but since I also have HomePNA I was able to move my WAP to a better location. In my case, I am basically using HomePna to connect three different mini-networks in my house. We have a big house and I suspect wireless would not have worked as well for this purpose.

 

[b4rth3zz]

One more question:
The distance between the 2 WAPs will be about 10 meters (= 32 feet). But there are 2 walls between them.
Will I receive a decent signal when using 2 Linksys WAP11s ?
Unfortunately here in Belgium resellers don't take products back, when the packaging has been opened. So I want to make sure that everything will work properly when I buy it.

 

[rw120555]

That is a toughie -- I would think you'd be ok, but wireless is a little unpredicatable at times. If possible, you might get and install one WAP first, and then see if a laptop or whatever can detect it ok from the other room.

 

[ktwebb]

It has alot to do with what materials the obstructions are made of. If your just talking about sheetrock or drywall then you should be able to get an 11 Mb connection (understand that is theoretical bandwidth, not real world). If you have metal, water (aquarium etc) or cinder block etc. in the path then you may only get a 5.5 Mb link. perhaps even 2, 1Mb or none. Every environment is different. If you have the WAP11's with 100 mW radios in them then you should be ok. I don't know what they sell abroad in terms of power output on their AP radios. In short, nobody can reliably tell you what your connection will be. If someone gets on here and says "no problem, you'll be fine" then they are simply talking our of their ass. You "should" be ok at that distance with two walls, at least at some throughput level, even if it is not 11 Mb. Understand also that even if the software says 11 Mb, you can cut half of that right off the top from CSMA endoding. Add your walls and you can hope for 3-5 Mb roughly, if the link is solid. Pay attention to signal quality more than strength if your software utility shows that. play around with antenna polarization (vertical or horizontal postion of the rabbit ears) and position of the devices themselves.

 

[JackMDS]

Let me try to summarize (As of Aug. 2002).

Mode 1. All Entry Level Wireless Access Point (WAP) can act as Wireless Hub to connect to Wireless Clients that are installed in computers. (Usually would be called Gateway Mode).

Mode 2. Some WAPs can also be configured as a Bridge. In such a Configuration the WAP can only communicate with another WAP that is configured as a Bridge. This mode is useful to Bridge two LANs that are a part, and it is preferred to connect them wirelessly. Plug one WAP Bridge to a Switch on the first LAN, the other WAP to a Switch on the second LAN, and they are connected.

Mode 3. Few WAPs can also be configured as Clients, in such a configuration they act as a ?Fancy? regular Wireless card that usually goes on a computer. Under such configuration The WAP can only communicate with a Gateway configured WAP.


Let capture.

Mode 1 can only communicate with Mode 3.

Mode 2 can only communicate with Mode 2.

Mode 3 can communicate with Mode 1,
Mode 3 can communicate with Mode 3 in AD-Hoc setting (if the option is available).

As far as I know to date, all the WAPs that are part of a Cable/DSL Routers, can only be configured as Gateways (Mode 1).

================================

To Bridge two Networks, while the Networks them self are CAT5 wired, you need two WAPs in Bridge Mode.

To make Network 1 locally wireless you need an additional WAP, (or a Wireless Router.)

To Make Network 2 locally wireless you need an additional WAP, (or a Wireless Router.)

I.e. Two LANs Connected Wirelessly, and have local Wireless Capacity need 4 WAPs (two of them can be AP on a Wireless Cable/DSL Routers).

=================================

P.S If less equipment and more flexibility is desired. Entry level hardware is not the answer, go with the Pro.

 

[ktwebb]

Exellent post. Very Succint. THe only thing I would add to that is something I read in another post somewhere. I was saying something about SOHO AP's not being able to bridge and broadcast as an AP at the sametime. Someone countered with the information that they had a Netgear AP (I believe but could have been D-Link) that the current Firmware did allow this. Now, Cisco's Bridges have been able to do this all the way back to the Aironet days, circa 1998, however I never trusted this setup though I did install it on a couple of jobs because the customer insisted to save money. It's just not a very reliable method to use IMO. Anyway, I can't confirm or deny the Netgear AP ability but thought I would mention that for anyone that wanted to bridge two LAN's while maintaining wireless client connectivity on one or both sides. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend doing it ultimately. Not if you depending on this link anyway.

 

[rw120555]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
Let me try to summarize (As of Aug. 2002).

To Bridge two Networks, while the Networks them self are CAT5 wired, you need two WAPs in Bridge Mode.

To make Network 1 locally wireless you need an additional WAP, (or a Wireless Router.)

To Make Network 2 locally wireless you need an additional WAP, (or a Wireless Router.)

I.e. Two LANs Connected Wirelessly, and have local Wireless Capacity need 4 WAPs (two of them can be AP on a Wireless Cable/DSL Routers).

Very good, except this part can be clarified a bit. To bridge the 2 networks, you can also use one wap configured as AP and another configured as client, both of which are connected via switches to their respective ethernet networks. This way, the network with the AP Wap has local wireless and does not need another WAP. Network 2 (with Client WAP) may or may not need a 3rd WAP, it depends on whether the wireless devices in it are in range of the WAP in network one.

The term "bridge" seems to get used in different ways. What you're describing is a point to point bridge. But, the term "bridge" also gets applied to devices that can be called client cards. e.g. the Linksys Wet11 is called a "wireless ethernet bridge" but it performs the same function that the Linksys WAP11 does when configured in client mode. It gets a little confusing, but I suppose both uses of the term "bridge" are legit.

As I see it, the main adv of a point to point bridge as opposed to an AP/Client setup is security -- the two point to point bridges use each other's MAC addresses and are only broadcasting to each other and hence are supposedly more secure than an AP setup would be.

I was saying something about SOHO AP's not being able to bridge and broadcast as an AP at the sametime. Someone countered with the information that they had a Netgear AP (I believe but could have been D-Link) that the current Firmware did allow this.

I don't think it is netgear -- at least not the Netgear ME102. It sure would be nice if more WAPs could do this reliably. I know I initially assumed that APs could communicate with each and basically act as repeaters to extend range. I was surprised when I fouind this wasn't the case.

 

[JackMDS]

While I have hand on experience with a lot of Wireless Entry Level Hardware, I can not put my hand on most of the hardware that is out there. Therefore a lot of the knowledge has to come from what the Manufactures published.

In most of Home/SOHO Network related publication there is a "frivolous" use of terms that are not technically correct.

As an example, many times the word "Bridge" is used instead of "Wireless Connection" and it has nothing to do with Bridge Mode as we know it professionally.

You can find many instances that Product X is described as a mean to "Bridge your computer to a Wireless Cable/DSL Router" to enable sharing of Internet connection. That sound to the writer much better then Product X is a "Wireless Client Card" that can enable your computer to communicate with a Wireless Cable/DSL Router to share Internet connection. The Card is not a Bridge, but the term is used anyway.

Entry level acting as repeater? I doubt. I think it comes from Netgear ME102 latest firmware update:

Quote from: www.netgear.com

ME102 software upgrade (Version 1.4h3) allows 128 bit WEP encryption and bridging functions.
This software release upgrade the ME102 Access Point to allow for the following functions:

Support 128-bit WEP Encryption
Support wireless bridge functions: Point-to-Point and Point-to-MultiPoint
Support Access Point Client feature
Support MAC Address Control.

End of Quote.

I spend a lot of time, and still do not know what technically Point-to-MultiPoint is?

Netgear mention the use of few WAPs for enabling office roaming capacity, but the whole issue is not clear.

===========================

In the post above, rw120555 has a good point, if the second LAN does not need independent Wireless capacity, just to be connected to the first LAN. If distance allows, t is enough to use One WAP (or an AP of Wireless Router), and a WAP in Client mode plugged to Ethernet port on the second LAN.

BTW: In one settings I was able to solve distance issue, by Connecting an Independent WAP to a Router via 30? CAT5 and place the WAP out of the LAN room further toward the second LAN. Did the same (WAP away with 30? cable) to the second LAN. This arrangement was had much less obstructions then by setting the WAPs in the LAN?s rooms. I was able to cover large distance by doing so.

 

[ktwebb]

Point to Multipoint is actually a pretty simple concept to grasp. It simply means a parent bridge, and more than one child bridge associating to it. The Parent bridge would have Root on, and the rest would have Root off. When your talking about real world bandwidth of around 6 Mb on a good link then Multipoint bridging becomes a hard argument to justify unless your just trying to share a broadband or T-1 connection between multiple sites. Again I never could confirm that the post about the Netgear could bridge and broadcast as an AP at the same time. This guy said he had it working and I don't really care enough to worry about it. In essence it would be a repeater. The Cisco hardware will work in what they call repeater mode (AP's anyway, would have to check about Bridges) but they shut down the RJ-45 port in the process so it is strictly a wireless repeater, whereas what we're talking about is of course both wired and wireless connectivity initiated by the original AP received and then distributed over the wire and air. Maybe I'll go look for that post on the BBS's I frequent. Probably not though.

As far as the terminology is concerned. Alot of it is just more Linksys crap. They started the whole WAP thing and client mode. They call their workgroup bridge a ethernet bridge. While I have no documented literature to dispute that claim officially, a wireless client device has been around since the beginning of 802.11b. Aironet called it a Multi-Client or Uni-client. Multi would allow 4 MAC addresses to register. Uni would allow one. Cisco changed it to a Workgroup bridge when they bought Aironet and to me that is more appropriate and less confusing than Linksys calling theirs a bridge. 3Com's calls theirs a workgroup bridge. I believe Lucent had/has one. Would have to check. The big difference in those companies is who they market too and pricing. As someone who was in the wireless LAN/WAN business for almost 5 years I will always call an AP and AP, a workgroup a workgroup bridge and so on. Truth is mob rules, and whatever is adopted over the long term will be correct, unless dome IEEE standard naming convention is adopted. All my ranting about how silly calling and AP a Wireless AP is irrelevant no matter how ridiculous it is if Tom Dick and Harry all call it a WAP.

The lines get blurred when Bridge is mentioned analagous to a phone line bridge, bridging one medium to the other. Technically correct but once again, the term bridge is not new to the wireless community and has been used as a PtoP or PtoMP wireless device joining two or more wired LANs for years and years.

 

[rw120555]

Entry level acting as repeater? I doubt. I think it comes from Netgear ME102 latest firmware update:

Half the claimed features in the firmware update apparently don't work, so don't pay much attention to them! But I don't think it ever claimed it would act as a repeater. The docs on the new features (even the ones that work) are pretty much non-existent, so that doesn't help.

I spend a lot of time, and still do not know what technically Point-to-MultiPoint is?

I think I understand this. Suppose you've got 3 clusters of machines, or LANS, and within each lan they are connected via ethernet or whatever. So, the waps configured as bridges in LAN2, LAN3 all connect to the WAP in LAN1. According to some docs Linksys emailed me,

"To configure a Point to MultiPoint bridged environment:
1. Click Point to MultiPoint for the WAP11 used in LAN 1. No MAC Address binding is needed.
2. Set the Access Points in LAN 2 and LAN 3 to Point to Point, and have them look for the MAC Address of the Access Point in LAN 1."

But again, an alternative is to have a WAP AP and 2 WAP clients. It seems like the main function of these point to point/multipoint setups is to sell more WAPs! Also, if you are going to configure waps as point to point bridges, you could just as easily use homepna or homeplug bridges, which might work more reliably in many situations.

Netgear mention the use of few WAPs for enabling office roaming capacity, but the whole issue is not clear.

I originally thought roaming meant repeater, but no it doesn't. I think the idea is the WAPs are connected to a wired backbone. So, I'm in my office and my laptop picks up a WAP plugged into an ethernet switch. I go down two floors, I am now out of range of the original WAP, but move into range of another WAP (also plugged into an ethernet jack) that takes over.

 

[ktwebb]

think I understand this. Suppose you've got 3 clusters of machines, or LANS, and within each lan they are connected via ethernet or whatever. So, the waps configured as bridges in LAN2, LAN3 all connect to the WAP in LAN1. According to some docs Linksys emailed me,

think the idea is the WAPs are connected to a wired backbone. So, I'm in my office and my laptop picks up a WAP plugged into an ethernet switch. I go down two floors, I am now out of range of the original WAP, but move into range of another WAP (also plugged into an ethernet jack) that takes over.

Correct on both accounts. Theoretically you can add as many sites as you want with Root-Off bridges. You'd want to look at higher bandwidth solutions if you were pushing any real traffic. Of course with 802.11b you could have 3 bridges at the main site without interference and generally that's what we did when we customers needed more bandwidth overall but still wanted to stay as low as possible on pricing. Aggregrate 33 Mb, or roughly 18 Mb realworld.

Roaming does what the name implies. Allows you to roam about a wireless infrastructure. Client cards tend to try to hang on to the AP they are associated to. One fix is to just force 11 Mb associations from AP to client instead of letting them auto-drop.

Also, if you are going to configure waps as point to point bridges, you could just as easily use homepna or homeplug bridges

Wi-Fi bridging isn't really for in-home use anyway. The Workgroup bridges and Client-mode are more intune with shots across the street or wired client via a wireless link in the home. 802.11b bridges compete with expensive WAN fiber runs more than anything else. Thats the corporate market anyway. Rather than running fiber from site to site to share a T-1 or better, wireless links are used in their place. Biggest job I was ever on was connecting all but one school in St. Johns County Florida (St Augustine) 22 sites. They just wanted to share their internet pipe from the Main office out to the schools, plus some IP telephony and so forth. The cost, especially when this was proposed, to run fiber was astronomical. Towers are 5 grand a piece roughly and the bridges plus cable and so on put each school at under 15K a piece. They saved a bundle.

 

[rw120555]

Mode 3 can communicate with Mode 3 in AD-Hoc setting (if the option is available).

Incidentally, neither of the 2 waps I have looked at, Linksys Wap11 and Netgear ME102, would seem to support ad-hoc mode (Jack's Mode 3 to Mode 3). The Linksys WAP11 docs say

"Access Point Client - When set to Access Point Client mode, the Access Point Client is able to talk to one remote access point within its range. This mode allows the Access Point Client to act as a client of a remote access point. The Access Point Client cannot communicate directly with any wireless clients. A separate network attached to the Access Point Client can then be wirelessly bridged to the remote access point. Enter the required LAN MAC address of the remote access point."

It appears that the Netgear ME102 would work similarly (if it worked at all, but apparently this feature does not work correctly yet.)