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Life After Nelson Mandela and ANC came to power

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
26,439
506
126
Here are two different results of the African National Congress (ANC) coming to power in South Africa:

Two extremes:

1) 'Out of Control' Vigilante Justice:


Angry mobs of poor South Africans fed up with illegal immigrants from other African nations are violently killing those accused of crimes.

Golden Mtika, a journalist who works and lives in Diepsloot, has filmed and photographed dozens of examples of residents taking the law into their own hands.

One video shot in September shows a Zimbabwean man being beaten to death with sticks and rocks in broad daylight “like a snake,” Mtika said, after he was accused of trying to rob a nearby shop. In another, police struggle to hold back dozens of screaming bystanders as ambulance workers try to come to the aid of a man beaten senseless by the same crowd.
]http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/30/19073793-out-of-control-vigilante-justice-grips-impoverished-south-african-slum


2) Last enclave of Dutch Afrikaners routinely discriminated against and denied jobs hole up in tiny gated community:

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/20/19039961-all-white-town-fights-to-preserve-segregation-in-mandelas-rainbow-nation#comments

And if Afrikaners’ rights aren’t protected, the children of a community that South African President Jacob Zuma calls Africa’s “only white tribe” will disappear, she said.

“I don’t think they’ll have a future here. Will they have jobs?" Haasbroek said of her children. “Afrikaners are getting poorer and poorer. I can pack up my things and do what my sister did and go to Australia.”

“My husband’s an engineer, he can get a job anywhere,” she added. “But what about my people?”
Some Hope:

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/15/18955271-south-africans-fret-about-post-mandela-civil-strife?lite

JOHANNESBURG, South Africa - The priest of a Soweto church that became a focal point in the struggle against apartheid has called on President Jacob Zuma's government to vow to uphold Nelson Mandela's vision of tolerance amid fears of social unrest in the event of the icon's death.

Father Sebastian Rossouw, of the Regina Mundi church in the predominantly black residential area, said the government should reassure people that it will remain faithful to Mandela’s legacy.

"If the present government … are true to who [Mandela] is there shouldn’t be a fear of civil war post-Madiba,” said Rossouw, calling Mandela by his clan name.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
26,439
506
126
Nelson Mandela was a terrible terrorist for bombing the hell out of white South Africans.
In the beginning the pursuit of equality might have been noble (except perhaps some acts of terrorism including Winnie Mandela's approval of 'necklacing' people suspected of collaborating), but now the ANC has neither the resources nor the will to do any better for anyone living in South Africa. Its seems to be degrading into mob rule with lawlessness and violence prevailing.

Kind of like Detroit, Michigan. :D
 

Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,275
202
106
Poor Nelson Mandela is not conscious at the moment, but if he were, I bet he would be angry. I pity him.

Why? He spent his entire life fighting against Apartheid. He spent 30 years in prison for his role in fighting it. When he got out, he negotiated a peaceful transition from whites-only rule to ANC rule. He did some amazing things, and after handing power over, the ANC has basically tried to rape the country for everything they can and destroy it.

Corruption and waste in South Africa is so bad it is shocking. There are stats showing we are now last in the continent in Maths and Science education - this is purely because money and resources that should have been spent on the underprivileged has instead been spent on overseas spending trips, bribes, and expensive luxury cars. And home makeovers - all at the taxpayers expense.

The roads in Sandton, probably the wealthiest city in the country, are falling to pieces, because the ANC wastes all of the tax revenue it receives instead of spending it on maintenance.

Some even say that Apartheid Bantu education, bad though it was, is better than the current education system. This is not a reflection of how "good" Bantu education was - it was literally designed to keep the black man down - it is a reflection of how absolutely terrible modern South African education is.

Of course that doesnt bother the ANC government ministers, who would never send their children to a public school.
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,757
2
76
Black South Africans used to be screwed by Whites Afrikans, now they're screwed by the ANC.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,313
2
0
I think this is being covered by genocide watch now, and yet the south african government doesn't give a shit about it. It's a bad time to be white in south africa. My advice is get out, particularly if you're one of these farmers, who have seen violence rates against them sky rocket in recent years.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,408
2
81
@Pocatello even blacks are poorer under ANC rule. Some ANC people are very rich though stealing means of production from whites until they run it into the ground in many cases.

'Archbishop Desmond Tutu has warned that South Africa is sitting on a "powder keg" because millions are living in "dehumanising poverty" stating that Black Economic Empowerment only serves a black ANC elite few"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Economic_Empowerment#cite_note-12
 
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Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,275
202
106
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I think this is being covered by genocide watch now, and yet the south african government doesn't give a shit about it. It's a bad time to be white in south africa. My advice is get out, particularly if you're one of these farmers, who have seen violence rates against them sky rocket in recent years.
The problem is, we dont want to get out because we love our country. Like you Americans, we love South Africa, its the government we arent crazy about.
 

justoh

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2013
3,687
81
91
South Africa is screwed. Don't know how anyone could remain optimistic about that shit hole. Also, their internet is mos kak slow.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Poor Nelson Mandela is not conscious at the moment, but if he were, I bet he would be angry. I pity him.

Why? He spent his entire life fighting against Apartheid. He spent 30 years in prison for his role in fighting it. When he got out, he negotiated a peaceful transition from whites-only rule to ANC rule. He did some amazing things, and after handing power over, the ANC has basically tried to rape the country for everything they can and destroy it.

Corruption and waste in South Africa is so bad it is shocking. There are stats showing we are now last in the continent in Maths and Science education - this is purely because money and resources that should have been spent on the underprivileged has instead been spent on overseas spending trips, bribes, and expensive luxury cars. And home makeovers - all at the taxpayers expense.

The roads in Sandton, probably the wealthiest city in the country, are falling to pieces, because the ANC wastes all of the tax revenue it receives instead of spending it on maintenance.

Some even say that Apartheid Bantu education, bad though it was, is better than the current education system. This is not a reflection of how "good" Bantu education was - it was literally designed to keep the black man down - it is a reflection of how absolutely terrible modern South African education is.

Of course that doesnt bother the ANC government ministers, who would never send their children to a public school.
Well said, and you have my sympathy whether you are white or black. Nonetheless, South Africa is a prime example of why it's not wise to keep the majority dirt poor, ignorant and violent. When they eventually achieve power, you'll be ruled by people who are very rich but still ignorant and violent.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
11,845
1,167
126
Well said, and you have my sympathy whether you are white or black. Nonetheless, South Africa is a prime example of why it's not wise to keep the majority dirt poor, ignorant and violent. When they eventually achieve power, you'll be ruled by people who are very rich but still ignorant and violent.
Well put. I will say, however, that South Africia is better today than most would expect-due in large part to Mandela's efforts. Look to Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) for an example of a real life worst case scenario for a smiliar transition.

It will be interesting to see if the billions Red China is pouring into Africa nudges that continent along the way to effective and honest governments. Nothing else in the past seems to have worked.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
26,216
11,368
136
Mark my words, when Mandela dies the Fox News spin will be to label him as a terrorist.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Well put. I will say, however, that South Africia is better today than most would expect-due in large part to Mandela's efforts. Look to Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) for an example of a real life worst case scenario for a smiliar transition.

It will be interesting to see if the billions Red China is pouring into Africa nudges that continent along the way to effective and honest governments. Nothing else in the past seems to have worked.
That is a good point; to the extent that South Africia is better today than Zimbabwe, that is no doubt due in large part to Mandela's efforts. He is a class act.

I know several white South Africans who have emigrated; they loved their country, but it's become far too dangerous for whites unless you have the money to live in gated, guarded communities. (Although perhaps Ancalagon44 an shed light on whether this is a widespread phenomenon or localized.) But surely the lives of most black South Africans must be better. The threat of being victimized by criminals has to be better than the threat of being victimized by one's own government.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,670
6
0
Well put. I will say, however, that South Africia is better today than most would expect-due in large part to Mandela's efforts. Look to Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) for an example of a real life worst case scenario for a smiliar transition.
We didnt screw our country up as much as Zimbabwe is not exactly a glowing endorsement.
 

Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,275
202
106
That is a good point; to the extent that South Africia is better today than Zimbabwe, that is no doubt due in large part to Mandela's efforts. He is a class act.

I know several white South Africans who have emigrated; they loved their country, but it's become far too dangerous for whites unless you have the money to live in gated, guarded communities. (Although perhaps Ancalagon44 an shed light on whether this is a widespread phenomenon or localized.) But surely the lives of most black South Africans must be better. The threat of being victimized by criminals has to be better than the threat of being victimized by one's own government.
It is an issue. A lot of people choose to live in what we would call a complex - I suspect there are similarities between that and a HOA. Complexes are generally high density housing, or even flats, in which part of the appeal is security, because they have 24/7 guards who both man the gate and patrol the complex itself. The legal term for a complex is a sectional title.

I live in a sectional title myself, in Sandton, but we have no guards. We havent had any issues, but that could be luck. Not everyone lives in a complex, but when you are house shopping, security is a big consideration, and that pushes the price of complexes up. If you dont live in a complex, you generally have an alarm system connected to a private security company that offers 24 hour armed response. These private security companies also often patrol the neighbourhoods that they are most active in.

I have never had any encounters with violent crime, but my sister-in-law and her boyfriend were robbed of their possessions at gunpoint last week, including her car. She is lucky - she was neither raped nor shot. This is the problem - theft due to poverty is at least understandable, if not condonable. However, as I said, most robberies turn violent if the owners are present, usually involving any females being gang raped. That is the part that gets me - I find myself thinking, imagine if my wife or daughter was raped, and I had the chance to get out. I would kill myself. I know rape can happen anywhere in the world, but in SA, the stats are particularly bad.

That being said, its often said that in fact black people have it worse in terms of violent crime, per capita. Apparently violence in the townships is worse than we experience. Also remember, if black people catch a rapist or murderer, he will be lucky to make it alive to the police. Mob justice occurs often.

The police are pretty much another gang of thugs. Unfortunately I think white South Africans have conditioned the police into accepting bribes, so now the police go out looking for trouble in order to score bribes. So its difficult to trust the police in most cases.

I cant speak as to whether your average black South African is safer from violence now than he was in the apartheid days - I would guess that he is safer, even with the huge amount of violent crime.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
We didnt screw our country up as much as Zimbabwe is not exactly a glowing endorsement.
Actually it may be. Coming out of an Apartheid-type society is extremely difficult at best. If it were possible to impartially look at all such instances - and I doubt this can be done successfully since like all soft sciences every factor must be weighted which must be somewhat arbitrary - it could well be that South Africa is near the top of the curve. Iraq had a similar situation (albeit based on religious sects rather than race and/or colonization) and certainly has its share of violence and lawlessness.

It is an issue. A lot of people choose to live in what we would call a complex - I suspect there are similarities between that and a HOA. Complexes are generally high density housing, or even flats, in which part of the appeal is security, because they have 24/7 guards who both man the gate and patrol the complex itself. The legal term for a complex is a sectional title.

I live in a sectional title myself, in Sandton, but we have no guards. We havent had any issues, but that could be luck. Not everyone lives in a complex, but when you are house shopping, security is a big consideration, and that pushes the price of complexes up. If you dont live in a complex, you generally have an alarm system connected to a private security company that offers 24 hour armed response. These private security companies also often patrol the neighbourhoods that they are most active in.

I have never had any encounters with violent crime, but my sister-in-law and her boyfriend were robbed of their possessions at gunpoint last week, including her car. She is lucky - she was neither raped nor shot. This is the problem - theft due to poverty is at least understandable, if not condonable. However, as I said, most robberies turn violent if the owners are present, usually involving any females being gang raped. That is the part that gets me - I find myself thinking, imagine if my wife or daughter was raped, and I had the chance to get out. I would kill myself. I know rape can happen anywhere in the world, but in SA, the stats are particularly bad.

That being said, its often said that in fact black people have it worse in terms of violent crime, per capita. Apparently violence in the townships is worse than we experience. Also remember, if black people catch a rapist or murderer, he will be lucky to make it alive to the police. Mob justice occurs often.

The police are pretty much another gang of thugs. Unfortunately I think white South Africans have conditioned the police into accepting bribes, so now the police go out looking for trouble in order to score bribes. So its difficult to trust the police in most cases.

I cant speak as to whether your average black South African is safer from violence now than he was in the apartheid days - I would guess that he is safer, even with the huge amount of violent crime.
Thanks for the info. Personally my view is much as with Iraq - if I must choose whether to be oppressed by criminals or by government, I'm choosing criminals every time. If nothing else, the criminals don't have the option of calling in tanks and armored cars.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,876
460
126
Well put. I will say, however, that South Africia is better today than most would expect-due in large part to Mandela's efforts. Look to Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) for an example of a real life worst case scenario for a smiliar transition.

It will be interesting to see if the billions Red China is pouring into Africa nudges that continent along the way to effective and honest governments. Nothing else in the past seems to have worked.
I didn't address this earlier, but I agree that the money pumped in by Red China might actually have a unique potential for driving effective and honest governments. Red China has no legacy of race-based slavery, no concept of "yellow guilt". Consequently Red China has no reason to accept dishonest government. It can't be shamed into standing by while funds meant for all are diverted to those in power, and it has no inherent need to continue funding a project if its leaders don't believe they are getting value for their coin. America has a need to be doing something - even if it's only helping enrich the powerful - to offset our legacy of race-based slavery. The natural human inclination is probably toward dishonesty, seizing as much as one can get, in the absence of traditions of altruism and/or evidence that honesty will in the long run pay off for the individual as well as for others. There are many African nations in which Red China can invest. If Red China therefore demands effective and honest government or investment disappears, countries' rulers can see that it is in their best interests as well as that of their citizens to provide effective and honest government.

Makes as much sense as anything else I've seen proposed. One caveat - as a black man, Obama can similarly reject dishonesty without being subject to cries of racism, so his contributions might possibly be more effective than previous contributions in demanding effective and honest use of the money. Assuming he wishes to use his political time and capital on that. Given our domestic issues, one could certainly excuse him if he decides not to spend a great deal of energy policing our contributions to Africa.
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
0
innocent children were killed in the church st. bombing that mandela sanctioned. i hope he rots in hell.
 

justoh

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2013
3,687
81
91
Thanks for the info. Personally my view is much as with Iraq - if I must choose whether to be oppressed by criminals or by government, I'm choosing criminals every time. If nothing else, the criminals don't have the option of calling in tanks and armored cars.
Except the situation is rather more like they're now being oppressed by their own, democratically elected government, which is worse, not better...
 

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