Lies, Damned Lies, and Cheney's Lies

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Solitarity

With war criminals? No thank you.

:laugh:

No, Solitarity
http://www.colbertnation.com/t.../the-word---solitarity

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Yet Another Republican Bashing Thread (YARBT) ?

Well given their record low in popularity it doesn't seem many Republicans want to own up to them either.

Come on.

This thread is nothing more than a rehash of what's already been on P&N a thousand times over, boiling down to the conclusion that they should to be publicly hanged. It screams out "I'm an idiot but thanks to this forum's hatred of Bush & Cheney maybe they won't notice."

Most of us don't believe they should be hanged but we do hold them responsible for fucking up and getting us involved in a Bullshit war. However a lot of us were totally behind them when they initiated the attack based on the alleged evidence only to find out we were duped. That betrayal of our trust is what caused so much anger towards that Administration. Now you might disagree about us being duped but we totally feel we were which explains the venomous anger towards those two. If you want someone to totally dislike you the best way to go about it is to betray their trust.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
Whatever Cheney is up to, it will be clarified within a couple of weeks before GW loses his "Get out of Jail Free" cards.

Probability: That Bush will issue a plethora of blanket pardons to his gathering of operatives, including himself. The legality of a self-pardon might be decided by the Supremes, but would Justice Kennedy go along with the other four Bush Family Monarchy Monkeys?

Possibility: That out of concern for the legality of pardoning himself, he will issue the pardons for others, then resign a day or two early so Dick Cheney can pardon him as Ford did for Nixon. I doubt this outcome based solely on Bush's ego. He doesn't want to wear the Nixonian Stigma.

Possibility: That Bush/Cheney will feel so confident in the efficacy of their lawyers and Justices, and in turn, the indifference of the new Administration, that they will take their chances that prosecution will not be forthcoming.

The Presidential authority to issue pardons is absolute. There would be NO issue for the Supremes. If Bush wants to pardon Cheney he can. He can pardon Moonbeam for supporting gay rights or flyingpig for supporting illegal detentions. Bush's pardon rights are absolute until January 20, 2009.

-Robert

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Yet Another Republican Bashing Thread (YARBT) ?

Well given their record low in popularity it doesn't seem many Republicans want to own up to them either.

Come on.

This thread is nothing more than a rehash of what's already been on P&N a thousand times over, boiling down to the conclusion that they should to be publicly hanged. It screams out "I'm an idiot but thanks to this forum's hatred of Bush & Cheney maybe they won't notice."

Most of us don't believe they should be hanged but we do hold them responsible for fucking up and getting us involved in a Bullshit war. However a lot of us were totally behind them when they initiated the attack based on the alleged evidence only to find out we were duped. That betrayal of our trust is what caused so much anger towards that Administration. Now you might disagree about us being duped but we totally feel we were which explains the venomous anger towards those two. If you want someone to totally dislike you the best way to go about it is to betray their trust.

No one should believe they should be hanged.

Here's the difference between you and I - I just assume all politicians will betray our trust, Republican, Democrat, other.

The difference between Bush & Cheney and most others is that Bush & Cheney went to war because they felt it was in the best interests of this country. Most other politicians betray our trust for purely personal gains, like Nixon or even Clinton.


And in no way does that equate to public hanging. Truth of it is if that comment were not in the post, I would not have replied.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Yet Another Republican Bashing Thread (YARBT) ?

Well given their record low in popularity it doesn't seem many Republicans want to own up to them either.

Come on.

This thread is nothing more than a rehash of what's already been on P&N a thousand times over, boiling down to the conclusion that they should to be publicly hanged. It screams out "I'm an idiot but thanks to this forum's hatred of Bush & Cheney maybe they won't notice."

Most of us don't believe they should be hanged but we do hold them responsible for fucking up and getting us involved in a Bullshit war. However a lot of us were totally behind them when they initiated the attack based on the alleged evidence only to find out we were duped. That betrayal of our trust is what caused so much anger towards that Administration. Now you might disagree about us being duped but we totally feel we were which explains the venomous anger towards those two. If you want someone to totally dislike you the best way to go about it is to betray their trust.

No one should believe they should be hanged.

Here's the difference between you and I - I just assume all politicians will betray our trust, Republican, Democrat, other.

The difference between Bush & Cheney and most others is that Bush & Cheney went to war because they felt it was in the best interests of this country. Most other politicians betray our trust for purely personal gains, like Nixon or even Clinton.


And in no way does that equate to public hanging. Truth of it is if that comment were not in the post, I would not have replied.

So, if Bush committed a crime, and it amounted to treason, you would not want to hang him?

I not only assume politicians will betray our trust, I know they will. Which is why a nice spate of hangings is needed to get the attention of our political leaders. Right now our country is being run like a fucking banana republic. Very sad, indeed. We were once a great nation. We are now a nation of greedy bastards, thieves, crooked politicians and a citizenry held hostage to the twin evils of bad government and bad corporations.

-Robert

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Its seems pretty clear in my mind why Gitmo was selected. It was really the only place in the entire world not really subject to either international or US law. But in fact a military base controlled only by the executive branch. Had Castro been militarily and the US weaker, he might have been able to shut GITMO down, and the US legal community is just finally asserting some rule of law.

As for the flying Pig's assertion that secret Prisons should have been used, they were in fact used, but they violated US law, international law, and as the existence of Abu Ghrab became public,
even the worse military dictators wanted nothing to do with the taint of GWB&Cheney.

Eventually the truth always leaks out, and once it starts leaking, it leaks faster and faster.

The truth only leaked out because the fools in charge don't know what they are doing. They staffed these prisons with people who weren't capable of handling the tasks given to them, and they broke down and leaked the info.

If these prisons had been staffed with the right personnel, no one would have heard of them at all. That's the way it should be. That's the way it will be.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The flyingpig is totally morally bankrupt if he believes what he just wrote. A crime is a crime regardless if you get caught or not.

And prisons all over the world are filled with people who thought they would get away with it but did not, leaving the non criminals safe to pick up the pieces, and try to repair some of the damage.

As for GWB&co, not only are they incompetent in carrying out their own more legal policy, their incompetence extends to not doing a good job of covering up their own crimes. In any case, the truth does almost always come out.

Chess9 is correct in stating GWB's pardon powers are almost unlimited in the USA, but that cuts no mustard an inch outside of the USA, which may be why the international community and the Hague may end up where GWB&co is punished for all too clear violations of international law.

The time may well come, where the vast majority of Americans gladly co operate with international demands to turn GWB&co over to the Hague.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Yet Another Republican Bashing Thread (YARBT) ?

Well given their record low in popularity it doesn't seem many Republicans want to own up to them either.

Come on.

This thread is nothing more than a rehash of what's already been on P&N a thousand times over, boiling down to the conclusion that they should to be publicly hanged. It screams out "I'm an idiot but thanks to this forum's hatred of Bush & Cheney maybe they won't notice."

Most of us don't believe they should be hanged but we do hold them responsible for fucking up and getting us involved in a Bullshit war. However a lot of us were totally behind them when they initiated the attack based on the alleged evidence only to find out we were duped. That betrayal of our trust is what caused so much anger towards that Administration. Now you might disagree about us being duped but we totally feel we were which explains the venomous anger towards those two. If you want someone to totally dislike you the best way to go about it is to betray their trust.

No one should believe they should be hanged.

Here's the difference between you and I - I just assume all politicians will betray our trust, Republican, Democrat, other.

The difference between Bush & Cheney and most others is that Bush & Cheney went to war because they felt it was in the best interests of this country. Most other politicians betray our trust for purely personal gains, like Nixon or even Clinton.


And in no way does that equate to public hanging. Truth of it is if that comment were not in the post, I would not have replied.

So, if Bush committed a crime, and it amounted to treason, you would not want to hang him?

I not only assume politicians will betray our trust, I know they will. Which is why a nice spate of hangings is needed to get the attention of our political leaders. Right now our country is being run like a fucking banana republic. Very sad, indeed. We were once a great nation. We are now a nation of greedy bastards, thieves, crooked politicians and a citizenry held hostage to the twin evils of bad government and bad corporations.

-Robert

Yeah all that would accomplish is create a bigger divide between Americans at at this time we need to come together

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Yet Another Republican Bashing Thread (YARBT) ?

Well given their record low in popularity it doesn't seem many Republicans want to own up to them either.

Come on.

This thread is nothing more than a rehash of what's already been on P&N a thousand times over, boiling down to the conclusion that they should to be publicly hanged. It screams out "I'm an idiot but thanks to this forum's hatred of Bush & Cheney maybe they won't notice."

Most of us don't believe they should be hanged but we do hold them responsible for fucking up and getting us involved in a Bullshit war. However a lot of us were totally behind them when they initiated the attack based on the alleged evidence only to find out we were duped. That betrayal of our trust is what caused so much anger towards that Administration. Now you might disagree about us being duped but we totally feel we were which explains the venomous anger towards those two. If you want someone to totally dislike you the best way to go about it is to betray their trust.

No one should believe they should be hanged.

Here's the difference between you and I - I just assume all politicians will betray our trust, Republican, Democrat, other.

The difference between Bush & Cheney and most others is that Bush & Cheney went to war because they felt it was in the best interests of this country. Most other politicians betray our trust for purely personal gains, like Nixon or even Clinton.


And in no way does that equate to public hanging. Truth of it is if that comment were not in the post, I would not have replied.

So, if Bush committed a crime, and it amounted to treason, you would not want to hang him?

I not only assume politicians will betray our trust, I know they will. Which is why a nice spate of hangings is needed to get the attention of our political leaders. Right now our country is being run like a fucking banana republic. Very sad, indeed. We were once a great nation. We are now a nation of greedy bastards, thieves, crooked politicians and a citizenry held hostage to the twin evils of bad government and bad corporations.

-Robert

Yeah all that would accomplish is create a bigger divide between Americans at at this time we need to come together

Right. The divide between those hanging and those doing the hanging.

Although this has been a modest proposal, what Dahlia is recommending is PUNISHMENT for these criminals. There aren't going to be any trials. How do we deter this conduct? Bush and Cheney literally got away with murder. Why is this so hard for people to understand? They are war criminals and should be treated as such. They are only better than the Nazis because they are OUR war criminals. That's the problem. And Americans have become too soft, too wish-washy, and too complacent.

-Robert

 

[Fear No Evil]

Yawn.. Obama will be doing most of the same things Bush and Cheney have done. If he's as smart as people claim he is, he will just keep it from the public and I doubt the press will do much digging for it. The right may point it out, the left will dismiss it as somehow being different.. rinse.. repeat..

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The flyingpig is totally morally bankrupt if he believes what he just wrote. A crime is a crime regardless if you get caught or not.

And prisons all over the world are filled with people who thought they would get away with it but did not, leaving the non criminals safe to pick up the pieces, and try to repair some of the damage.

As for GWB&co, not only are they incompetent in carrying out their own more legal policy, their incompetence extends to not doing a good job of covering up their own crimes. In any case, the truth does almost always come out.

Chess9 is correct in stating GWB's pardon powers are almost unlimited in the USA, but that cuts no mustard an inch outside of the USA, which may be why the international community and the Hague may end up where GWB&co is punished for all too clear violations of international law.

The time may well come, where the vast majority of Americans gladly co operate with international demands to turn GWB&co over to the Hague.

Lemon Law, you are correct. A crime is a crime regardless if you get caught or not. That is what the fools in charge failed to realize when they staffed these prisons. The people they picked were not, as you say, "morally bankrupt" enough to do the job. They felt guilt for the crimes they were committing. This guilt ultimately led to the outing of these secret prisons. This failure must not be repeated.

I predict that the next round of prisons will be staffed with much more qualified individuals. Men and women who understand what is at stake if the "truth" were to ever get out. If my prediction is correct, you and those like you wont be hearing about any secret prisons at all.

I have already addressed the issue of punishment for those caught torturing. They will simply be "lost" in the system. No one will ever follow up on them, because the public has already had its justice. Once the public is satisfied, they tend to forget.

My system is really the best of both worlds. The American public (and the world for that matter) will see a government dedicated to human rights, and quick to punish those who violate those rights. They will see what they want to see, and they will be ignorant to all that goes on in the shadows. That is how things need to work.

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Yawn.. Obama will be doing most of the same things Bush and Cheney have done. If he's as smart as people claim he is, he will just keep it from the public and I doubt the press will do much digging for it. The right may point it out, the left will dismiss it as somehow being different.. rinse.. repeat..

This is exactly what will happen.

 

[cubby1223]

chess9, get a damn grip on reality.

The deterrent is this - Bush & Cheney have term limits, they are out of office forever. Democrats now hold the power in the White House, Congress, and Senate.

If you believe killing politicians is the answer, then you are either an idiot, or trolling in this forum. I'm assuming it's half from each column.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: chess9


Obama's aides have made it abundantly clear that the new administration has no stomach for prosecuting the criminal acts of Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, et al. The best we can hope for is some sort of Truth Commission, that turns Cheney and his buddies into the public PARIAHS they so justifiably deserve to become.

But, without criminal prosecutions, how will we adequately restrain Executive Branch authority in the future? Will public opprobrium be enough to bring future Stalinistas like Bush/Cheney into line?

I would think a very public hanging of Cheney and Bush would be a suitable deterrant, but, alas, the wussy Dems will have none of it.

-Robert

Has nothing to do with "No stomach" Has to do with Obama being a lawyer, knowing how the legal system works, and having the intelligence to know that he could not get a conviction for any alleged criminal activity.

How can one absolutely proclaim that torture does not work, unless they have some sort of mystical imperical knowledge, of what the information obtained from it, did or did not prevent or cause?

While you are at it, please explain what the outcome in Iraq would have been, if the USA had not invaded it.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: jonks
I'm still confused how we sent Japanese officers to prison after WWII for waterboarding pows, yet our gov't admits doing it to at least 3 prisoners, and no one's getting charged, let alone sent to prison. When did the law change exactly?

Different time, different standards.

That's a cop out. When did the law change? It's still considered torture by the rest of the world. McCain said it was torture. The UN considers it torture. Or was it just a Nixonian/Chenian position that it's not torture or illegal when the US does it?

Remember FDR suspended Habeas Corpus, instituted a military tribunal and hung an American citizen for helping German sabateurs. Summary executions also happened on occassion. After the war in Germany there were a few incidents of summary execution of civilians suspected of helping resistence groups. We also at least on one occasion bombarded a village with artillery for 24 hours to send a msg to lay down and stop fighting, this was in 1946 I believe.

What do those situations have to do with the very specific crime of waterboarding which the US govt has admitted it performed as an interrogation method on prisoners? I'm failing to see what you are connecting with those incidents.

The law changed when Bush changed it.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
chess9, get a damn grip on reality.

The deterrent is this - Bush & Cheney have term limits, they are out of office forever. Democrats now hold the power in the White House, Congress, and Senate.

If you believe killing politicians is the answer, then you are either an idiot, or trolling in this forum. I'm assuming it's half from each column.

We don't kill politicians for building roads we don't like or banning cell phones while driving. We do have a history (a very short history true) of hanging politicians convicted of war crimes. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Rumsfeld, and Brenner appear to have committed war crimes. Bringing them to trial, and if found guilty, hanging them is appropriate. To do less is an insult to their victims and an insult to the memory of our forebearers who were wise enough to hang past war criminals.

 

[cubby1223]

All the nutjobs are popping up their heads

Originally posted by: ironwing
We don't kill politicians for building roads we don't like or banning cell phones while driving. We do have a history (a very short history true) of hanging politicians convicted of war crimes. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Rumsfeld, and Brenner appear to have committed war crimes. Bringing them to trial, and if found guilty, hanging them is appropriate. To do less is an insult to their victims and an insult to the memory of our forebearers who were wise enough to hang past war criminals.

Name me the last U.S. politician who was hanged by Americans.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: chess9


Obama's aides have made it abundantly clear that the new administration has no stomach for prosecuting the criminal acts of Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, et al. The best we can hope for is some sort of Truth Commission, that turns Cheney and his buddies into the public PARIAHS they so justifiably deserve to become.

But, without criminal prosecutions, how will we adequately restrain Executive Branch authority in the future? Will public opprobrium be enough to bring future Stalinistas like Bush/Cheney into line?

I would think a very public hanging of Cheney and Bush would be a suitable deterrant, but, alas, the wussy Dems will have none of it.

-Robert

Has nothing to do with "No stomach" Has to do with Obama being a lawyer, knowing how the legal system works, and having the intelligence to know that he could not get a conviction for any alleged criminal activity.

How can one absolutely proclaim that torture does not work, unless they have some sort of mystical imperical knowledge, of what the information obtained from it, did or did not prevent or cause?

While you are at it, please explain what the outcome in Iraq would have been, if the USA had not invaded it.

It has nothing to do with him being a constitutional law professor. He knows, as well as Dahlia Lithwick, who is a constitutional lawyer/scholar, that crimes have been committed. However, he doesn't want his administration bogged down in criminal prosecutions with so much else on his plate. Bush will leave the country trashed and with a thousand serious problems. But, without prosecutions we have no viable deterrance policy in place. That's why we have laws. If Bush were a petty Texas drug dealer you'd be calling for a life sentence.

Also, this torture business, as the article notes, has been studied extensively. Torture, on balance, does not work and is harmful to our troops. Even McCain understands that simple concept. But, what is troubling in your response is your implication that torture is just peachy keen if it produces results. Even YOUR President says he doesn't torture. I think we have some moral ambivalence here Houston, so let's do a fly by. LOL.

Here's a thought: Don't break the law. If you do, you should pay a penalty. That's what Republican Democracies do. Without a penalty for law-breaking, we are nothing but anarchists.

-Robert

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
All the nutjobs are popping up their heads

Originally posted by: ironwing
We don't kill politicians for building roads we don't like or banning cell phones while driving. We do have a history (a very short history true) of hanging politicians convicted of war crimes. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Rumsfeld, and Brenner appear to have committed war crimes. Bringing them to trial, and if found guilty, hanging them is appropriate. To do less is an insult to their victims and an insult to the memory of our forebearers who were wise enough to hang past war criminals.

Name me the last U.S. politician who was hanged by Americans.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, the penalty for international war crimes is no longer death, so if you amend your question to the last US politician or Americans that was punished by Americans for various crimes, both foreign and domestic, we would be dealing with a very long list.

We can list Linde England and Charles Granger still serving time in various military brigs, but sad to say, they were scapegoats for equally guilty military contractors
and other army officials who should be joining them.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
All the nutjobs are popping up their heads

Originally posted by: ironwing
We don't kill politicians for building roads we don't like or banning cell phones while driving. We do have a history (a very short history true) of hanging politicians convicted of war crimes. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Rumsfeld, and Brenner appear to have committed war crimes. Bringing them to trial, and if found guilty, hanging them is appropriate. To do less is an insult to their victims and an insult to the memory of our forebearers who were wise enough to hang past war criminals.

Name me the last U.S. politician who was hanged by Americans.

That's a good question. I'd have to think about it and get back to you. Nathan Hale was hanged by the British of course for spying, though he was an officer of the Continental Army. Although I deeply regret America winning that war, I'd say Hale was definitely one of the heroes of the American Revolution.

-Robert

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Yet Another Republican Bashing Thread (YARBT) ?

Originally posted by: chess9
I would think a very public hanging of Cheney and Bush would be a suitable deterrant, but, alas, the wussy Dems will have none of it.

-Robert

It's fun to boast about things when all they are are typed words in a pointless internet forum, but you damn well know you wouldn't want this to ever happen. :roll:

Can't believe that even had to be typed out, this forum continues to reach new lows as each day passes.

The fact that Cheney is a Republican doesn't make this a Republican bashing thread. I don't hate Cheney for being a Republican, I hate him for being a a subhuman piece of shit who should rot in a jail cell for the rest of his days.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

There is no change coming buddy. obama and biden have been working diligently with the "transition team" to insure total continuity of government as displayed by his appointments.

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
There is no change coming buddy. obama and biden have been working diligently with the "transition team" to insure total continuity of government as displayed by his appointments.

That's a cruel thing to say to someone right before Xmas! :laugh:

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
There is no change coming buddy. obama and biden have been working diligently with the "transition team" to insure total continuity of government as displayed by his appointments.

You mean <gasp!> that Rush and Bill O and Shawn H lied about Obama being the incarnation of Lenin?

Yes, he's a centrist and won't throw many bones to the lefties. The left wing might as well get over it now....

-Robert

 

[Jhhnn]

The law changed when Bush changed it.

Yeh, if we lived under the Divine Right of Kings.

Maybe George will declare the Dems to be usurpers, nuke the inauguration, declare himself to be God's messenger on Earth, Presidente for Life...

Gawd, I can't believe I'm even responding to such mindless drivel...

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

The law changed when Bush changed it.

Yeh, if we lived under the Divine Right of Kings.

Maybe George will declare the Dems to be usurpers, nuke the inauguration, declare himself to be God's messenger on Earth, Presidente for Life...

Gawd, I can't believe I'm even responding to such mindless drivel...

Yeah, because its not like other Presidents havent used executive orders to direct similar policy...