Lies, Damned Lies, and Cheney's Lies

[chess9]

http://www.slate.com/id/2207070/

"First there's Cheney on the efficacy of torture. In his ABC interview last week he swaggered, "I think, for example, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was the No. 3 man in al-Qaida, the man who planned the attacks of 9/11, provided us with a wealth of information. There was a period of time there, three or four years ago, when about half of everything we knew about al-Qaida came from that one source."

"Could this be a close call? In fact, the debate ended years ago, almost as soon as it began. You may remember back in 2002, some of us were actually engaged in discussing this issue. Alan Dershowitz at Harvard was poking at the possibility of judge-sanctioned torture warrants. Those charged with setting interrogation policy at Guantanamo were seeking inspiration from Jack Bauer. And boneheads like me were positing fascinating hypotheticals about the possible efficacy of abusing our prisoners.

Well, guess what? The efficacy of torture is not a close question anywhere outside of Fox television anymore. Darius Rejali has definitively studied the question and showed that torture does not elicit truthful confessions. In his book How To Break a Terrorist, former interrogator Matthew Alexander agrees that abusive interrogation techniques don't work and endanger Americans. FBI Director Robert Mueller recently told Vanity Fair's David Rose that he doesn't "believe it to be the case" that enhanced interrogation stopped any attacks on America. And the stunning bipartisan report issued earlier this month by the Senate armed services committee confirms that lawyers in every branch of the military consistently warned top Bush officials that torture wasn't effective. The handful of people?including Dick Cheney?who are still blathering about how well torture works do so in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary."

Obama's aides have made it abundantly clear that the new administration has no stomach for prosecuting the criminal acts of Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, et al. The best we can hope for is some sort of Truth Commission, that turns Cheney and his buddies into the public PARIAHS they so justifiably deserve to become.

But, without criminal prosecutions, how will we adequately restrain Executive Branch authority in the future? Will public opprobrium be enough to bring future Stalinistas like Bush/Cheney into line?

I would think a very public hanging of Cheney and Bush would be a suitable deterrant, but, alas, the wussy Dems will have none of it.

-Robert

 

[theflyingpig]

Bolding three entire paragraphs sure makes it easier to read. Thanks.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig
Bolding three entire paragraphs sure makes it easier to read. Thanks.

Drat, I should have put it in all caps too.

-Robert

 

[Lemon law]

In choosing to torture, Dick Cheney is no better or no worse than your average international war criminal. Its possible to invent all kinds of elaborate intellectual justifications for calling black white, but in the end, all Dick Cheney fools is Dick Cheney.

If Dick Cheney ever finds himself before the Hague along side of some other rats in GWB&co, the judges in the Hague may get very brief chuckle over any of Cheney's justifications for torture , but like the good German defense before it, such arguments last about five milli seconds before being dismissed as absurd.

Not to say that Dick Cheney will ever go to jail or be tried, and even if Cheney ever stands accused before the Hauge, the wussy judges there have no death penalty. The issue of GWB&co being tried for international war crimes has been debated before on these forums and many other places, but Cheney, at a minimum, can look forward to being roundly denounced for the rest of his life. And may well be
advised not to engage in any travel outside of the USA, as his reputation sinks ever lower as we learn more about what he has been up to. And with any luck, we will also bag his partner in crime, Donald
Rumsfeld also.

As for the longer sweep of history, Cheney may live to see himself ranked right up there with Hitler, Stalin, and Saddam Hussein.

 

[jonks]

I'm still confused how we sent Japanese officers to prison after WWII for waterboarding pows, yet our gov't admits doing it to at least 3 prisoners, and no one's getting charged, let alone sent to prison. When did the law change exactly?

 

[Genx87]

Public Hanging of a VP and president? Yeah that will send the right msg!

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: jonks
I'm still confused how we sent Japanese officers to prison after WWII for waterboarding pows, yet our gov't admits doing it to at least 3 prisoners, and no one's getting charged, let alone sent to prison. When did the law change exactly?

Different time, different standards. Remember FDR suspended Habeas Corpus, instituted a military tribunal and hung an American citizen for helping German sabateurs. Summary executions also happened on occassion. After the war in Germany there were a few incidents of summary execution of civilians suspected of helping resistence groups. We also at least on one occasion bombarded a village with artillery for 24 hours to send a msg to lay down and stop fighting, this was in 1946 I believe.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: jonks
I'm still confused how we sent Japanese officers to prison after WWII for waterboarding pows, yet our gov't admits doing it to at least 3 prisoners, and no one's getting charged, let alone sent to prison. When did the law change exactly?

Different time, different standards. Remember FDR suspended Habeas Corpus, instituted a military tribunal and hung an American citizen for helping German sabateurs. Summary executions also happened on occassion. After the war in Germany there were a few incidents of summary execution of civilians suspected of helping resistence groups. We also at least on one occasion bombarded a village with artillery for 24 hours to send a msg to lay down and stop fighting, this was in 1946 I believe.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No the standards don't really change, it sadly more depends on who lost the war, international will, and who has the biggest army.

In a better world the international community would be on war crimes violators faster than stink on shit, but it often takes 10 years or so after the fact before the prosecutions even start. Just days ago, they finally convicted the master mind of
the Rhowda massacres, and when they finally got around to people like Pinochet
and Pol Pot, they were too old and senile to stand trial.

 

[theflyingpig]

I'd like to think that the government has learned a few things from all of this. Obviously the American public does not like the idea of torture or prisons like gitmo. In the future, instead of attempting to justify these acts, the gov't should immediately condemn them and punish all of those involved. Of course this would all just be to satisfy the public's "outrage". In reality those "punished" individuals will simply be transferred from prison to prison until they become "lost" in they system. Does anyone really check up on jailed torturers? No, they don't. And even if they do, the torturer could simply refuse an interview. No one would ever know what was really going on. Those that come close could easily be silenced. So in a matter of months, these individuals would be freed and re-integrated into program.
I also think that it is a good idea to shut down a prison like gitmo. It does nothing but bring bad PR to the US. Shutting it down shows that we do not support such prisons and it once again satisfies the public's outrage. Instead, secret prisons should be built. But on a much, much smaller scale, making them easier to hide. Gitmo was too large, and too public. That is why it failed. In order for programs like this to succeed, they must remain hidden from the publics eye.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

^ God I hope you're kidding. Or is that you Dick?

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
^ God I hope you're kidding. Or is that you Dick?

Cheney is simply not capable of a plan such as mine. That is why he is hated by so many. The key is to fool everyone into liking and trusting you while secretly doing whatever it is you want. Every good politician must master this skill. Bush and Cheney have not, and that is why they are failures.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: jonks
I'm still confused how we sent Japanese officers to prison after WWII for waterboarding pows, yet our gov't admits doing it to at least 3 prisoners, and no one's getting charged, let alone sent to prison. When did the law change exactly?

Different time, different standards.

That's a cop out. When did the law change? It's still considered torture by the rest of the world. McCain said it was torture. The UN considers it torture. Or was it just a Nixonian/Chenian position that it's not torture or illegal when the US does it?

Remember FDR suspended Habeas Corpus, instituted a military tribunal and hung an American citizen for helping German sabateurs. Summary executions also happened on occassion. After the war in Germany there were a few incidents of summary execution of civilians suspected of helping resistence groups. We also at least on one occasion bombarded a village with artillery for 24 hours to send a msg to lay down and stop fighting, this was in 1946 I believe.

What do those situations have to do with the very specific crime of waterboarding which the US govt has admitted it performed as an interrogation method on prisoners? I'm failing to see what you are connecting with those incidents.

 

[cubby1223]

Yet Another Republican Bashing Thread (YARBT) ?

Originally posted by: chess9
I would think a very public hanging of Cheney and Bush would be a suitable deterrant, but, alas, the wussy Dems will have none of it.

-Robert

It's fun to boast about things when all they are are typed words in a pointless internet forum, but you damn well know you wouldn't want this to ever happen. :roll:

Can't believe that even had to be typed out, this forum continues to reach new lows as each day passes.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Public Hanging of a VP and president? Yeah that will send the right msg!

Yes, it would indeed.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Yet Another Republican Bashing Thread (YARBT) ?

Well given their record low in popularity it doesn't seem many Republicans want to own up to them either.

 

[cubby1223]

Solitarity

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Yet Another Republican Bashing Thread (YARBT) ?

Originally posted by: chess9
I would think a very public hanging of Cheney and Bush would be a suitable deterrant, but, alas, the wussy Dems will have none of it.

-Robert

It's fun to boast about things when all they are are typed words in a pointless internet forum, but you damn well know you wouldn't want this to ever happen. :roll:

Can't believe that even had to be typed out, this forum continues to reach new lows as each day passes.

If support for the rule of law, and punishing mass murderers is a low moment for this forum, then we don't share a common love for Anglo-Saxon justice, which is historically brutal and poltically motivated. You don't complain about capital punishment for any number of murderers, yet think it 'low' to similarly punish a leader who breaks the law? Who here is having the 'low' moment?

Political miscreants were commonly hung in England in the 12 through 19th centuries. We are about 100 years behind the English culturally, so hanging on lamp posts has a certain je ne sais quois of historical beauty. And don't doubt for a moment that if the shoe were on the other foot the Republicans wouldn't be calling for blood. Your party is the one who went after Clinton as though he had committed treason. 'Low' moments among Republicans is de rigeur.

At any rate, this is academic because we will be lucky to have a Truth Commission.The Dems are mostly cowardly whiners and have no stomach for Old Testament Truth and Beauty and JUDGMENT.

-Robert

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Solitarity

With war criminals? No thank you.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Yet Another Republican Bashing Thread (YARBT) ?

Well given their record low in popularity it doesn't seem many Republicans want to own up to them either.

Come on.

This thread is nothing more than a rehash of what's already been on P&N a thousand times over, boiling down to the conclusion that they should to be publicly hanged. It screams out "I'm an idiot but thanks to this forum's hatred of Bush & Cheney maybe they won't notice."

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: jonks
I'm still confused how we sent Japanese officers to prison after WWII for waterboarding pows, yet our gov't admits doing it to at least 3 prisoners, and no one's getting charged, let alone sent to prison. When did the law change exactly?

Different time, different standards.

That's a cop out. When did the law change? It's still considered torture by the rest of the world. McCain said it was torture. The UN considers it torture. Or was it just a Nixonian/Chenian position that it's not torture or illegal when the US does it?

How is that a copout? You talked about a specific time period and I responded with a reason for why we prosecuted the Japanese for these crimes when we did similar or worse.

Remember FDR suspended Habeas Corpus, instituted a military tribunal and hung an American citizen for helping German sabateurs. Summary executions also happened on occassion. After the war in Germany there were a few incidents of summary execution of civilians suspected of helping resistence groups. We also at least on one occasion bombarded a village with artillery for 24 hours to send a msg to lay down and stop fighting, this was in 1946 I believe.

What do those situations have to do with the very specific crime of waterboarding which the US govt has admitted it performed as an interrogation method on prisoners? I'm failing to see what you are connecting with those incidents.

To give you an illustration that we have in the past looked past our own action and prosecuted others for doing the same.

 

[Lemon law]

Its seems pretty clear in my mind why Gitmo was selected. It was really the only place in the entire world not really subject to either international or US law. But in fact a military base controlled only by the executive branch. Had Castro been militarily and the US weaker, he might have been able to shut GITMO down, and the US legal community is just finally asserting some rule of law.

As for the flying Pig's assertion that secret Prisons should have been used, they were in fact used, but they violated US law, international law, and as the existence of Abu Ghrab became public,
even the worse military dictators wanted nothing to do with the taint of GWB&Cheney.

Eventually the truth always leaks out, and once it starts leaking, it leaks faster and faster.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: chess9
If support for the rule of law, and punishing mass murderers is a low moment for this forum, then we don't share a common love for Anglo-Saxon justice, which is historically brutal and poltically motivated.

Now you are trying to twist words, hoping I don't notice. I know how to argue, I know how not to fall into traps. You state something that cannot be refuted, then conveniently apply that to what you really want to say, hoping everyone else reading doesn't realize it either.

Dick Cheney & George Bush are not mass murderers.

Yes, this forum continues to reach new lows.

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Its seems pretty clear in my mind why Gitmo was selected. It was really the only place in the entire world not really subject to either international or US law. But in fact a military base controlled only by the executive branch. Had Castro been militarily and the US weaker, he might have been able to shut GITMO down, and the US legal community is just finally asserting some rule of law.

As for the flying Pig's assertion that secret Prisons should have been used, they were in fact used, but they violated US law, international law, and as the existence of Abu Ghrab became public,
even the worse military dictators wanted nothing to do with the taint of GWB&Cheney.

Eventually the truth always leaks out, and once it starts leaking, it leaks faster and faster.

The truth only leaked out because the fools in charge don't know what they are doing. They staffed these prisons with people who weren't capable of handling the tasks given to them, and they broke down and leaked the info.

If these prisons had been staffed with the right personnel, no one would have heard of them at all. That's the way it should be. That's the way it will be.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Yet Another Republican Bashing Thread (YARBT) ?

Well given their record low in popularity it doesn't seem many Republicans want to own up to them either.

Come on.

This thread is nothing more than a rehash of what's already been on P&N a thousand times over, boiling down to the conclusion that they should to be publicly hanged. It screams out "I'm an idiot but thanks to this forum's hatred of Bush & Cheney maybe they won't notice."

If you read the article above you could only conclude that Cheney is a bald face liar and a criminal, but you won't read, and don't want to know the truth. Not wanting to know the truth doesn't make the truth go away, and does nothing to prevent the Bush and Company abuses from happening in the future. IF you were a thinking man, you'd want to stop the destruction of the Republic by means such as those recommended by flyingpig and Cheney, et al. We can only 'keep' Franklin's Republic if we are vigilant to the abuses of tyrants and criminals.

Dahlia Lithwick is a very bright girl, who law clerked for a Federal Judge, covers the US Supreme Court, and has a very thorough understanding of the Constitution. I would not toss out of hand her views that the Bush/Cheney criminals should be punished.

Btw, although I love bashing Republicans, if these crimes were committed by a Democrat I'd be in favor of hanging him/her as well.
-Robert

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Whatever Cheney is up to, it will be clarified within a couple of weeks before GW loses his "Get out of Jail Free" cards.

Probability: That Bush will issue a plethora of blanket pardons to his gathering of operatives, including himself. The legality of a self-pardon might be decided by the Supremes, but would Justice Kennedy go along with the other four Bush Family Monarchy Monkeys?

Possibility: That out of concern for the legality of pardoning himself, he will issue the pardons for others, then resign a day or two early so Dick Cheney can pardon him as Ford did for Nixon. I doubt this outcome based solely on Bush's ego. He doesn't want to wear the Nixonian Stigma.

Possibility: That Bush/Cheney will feel so confident in the efficacy of their lawyers and Justices, and in turn, the indifference of the new Administration, that they will take their chances that prosecution will not be forthcoming.