Libya still in turmoil

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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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Right, only when a (D) is next to the name. :D

He's a fucking tool seriously. Ghaddafi was an ALLY IN THE REGION. For like 3 or 4 years before then. He was buddy buddy with Sarkozy and top Italian elites. The guy had been trying to modernize Libya and bring in more wealth. Sure most of it was for himself and his family/friends, but he was doing some good by Libya in more recent years. The rebels, the ones we helped, were partially AQ and there is good evidence lending that AQ affiliates were organizers of the rebellion.

PS it wasn't our fucking rebellion, it was the goddamn Libyan peoples and even then it was roughly a quarter of the population backing it. Stupid hypocritical shit from our "compassionate" party.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
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He's a fucking tool seriously. Ghaddafi was an ALLY IN THE REGION. For like 3 or 4 years before then. He was buddy buddy with Sarkozy and top Italian elites. The guy had been trying to modernize Libya and bring in more wealth. Sure most of it was for himself and his family/friends, but he was doing some good by Libya in more recent years. The rebels, the ones we helped, were partially AQ and there is good evidence lending that AQ affiliates were organizers of the rebellion.

Good grief, what utter nonsense.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
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Consistency does not require airstrikes to every case of civilians being killed.

It's the same thing in the same place for the same reason. But now that O'Bummer and the other countries political leaders can put a "W" (and as we're seeing, that's certainly a W in "") in their W/L column, now consistency isn't required?

Haha...you are so mentally twisted up its a riot. I cannot wait to hear the excuses for the UN letting this continue coming out of the Lefty sites/media, it's better than anything late night entertainment could ever hope to deliver.

As for AI reporting on this...awesome. Great job! Now get them to de-fundi the fundi's there, then they'll actually accomplish something relevant. Until then, they're either pointing out something obvious, and/or, whining.

BFD.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
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It's sad not one 'conservative' has agreed to compliment Amnest International for their work monitoring and reporting this information. They just hate human rights?




So is their moral indignation stopping anyone from being murdered there? :rolleyes:
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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It's sad not one 'conservative' has agreed to compliment Amnest International for their work monitoring and reporting this information. They just hate human rights?

That's because Amnesty International is a useless organization that spends far more time getting its panties in a twist over terrorists being waterboarded than over actual human rights violations.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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Good grief, what utter nonsense.

Lol, he was. Opening up to the West and bringing in more Western money, helping fight extremists and Islamic fundamentalists. The guy was a piece of shit, but so is the Mexican government and we still stand with them yet they allow the cartels to shit all over their own people and ours. So fuck that non-sense.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
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Lol, he was. Opening up to the West and bringing in more Western money, helping fight extremists and Islamic fundamentalists. The guy was a piece of shit, but so is the Mexican government and we still stand with them yet they allow the cartels to shit all over their own people and ours. So fuck that non-sense.

Sorry, can I have that again but in English please?
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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Sorry, can I have that again but in English please?

My point is, we are pieces of shit too yet you're ok with us. My point is he was an "ally" and "friend" to the West and was improving Libya in recent years. Idiots have no clue what they're talking about and have done next to no reading on the subject. Just regurgitate non-sense you heard from some politician or the media, no because they've never bullshitted before lol.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
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My point is, we are pieces of shit too yet you're ok with us. My point is he was an "ally" and "friend" to the West and was improving Libya in recent years. Idiots have no clue what they're talking about and have done next to no reading on the subject. Just regurgitate non-sense you heard from some politician or the media, no because they've never bullshitted before lol.

Who is 'us'?

He may have been an ally at one point but he was also a liability. An ally today isn't necessarily an ally tomorrow.

And he wasn't improving Libya at all, that's utter garbage.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
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Veliko, he absolutely was or are you calling the leaders of France, the UK and Italy liars? If so then why weren't they lying about the rebellion and all the other non-sense going on in Libya? Fact is he and his government had been working with Western powers to open up his country to bring in business and wealth(again mostly for himself and his friends, but still Libya as a whole would have benefited), he had been fighting Islamic extremism in his country and helping us find AQ informants. You know because Libya is an AQ hotbed and AQ + their affiliates didn't really like him much any more. Then add to the fact the rebellion had about 25% support in the country, yeah we totally made the right fucking move. Stupid shit. If you supported intervention in Libya, then you're a piece of shit hypocrite for holding a differing view in either Afghanistan or Iraq.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
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Veliko, he absolutely was or are you calling the leaders of France, the UK and Italy liars? If so then why weren't they lying about the rebellion and all the other non-sense going on in Libya? Fact is he and his government had been working with Western powers to open up his country to bring in business and wealth(again mostly for himself and his friends, but still Libya as a whole would have benefited), he had been fighting Islamic extremism in his country and helping us find AQ informants. You know because Libya is an AQ hotbed and AQ + their affiliates didn't really like him much any more. Then add to the fact the rebellion had about 25% support in the country, yeah we totally made the right fucking move. Stupid shit. If you supported intervention in Libya, then you're a piece of shit hypocrite for holding a differing view in either Afghanistan or Iraq.

You are a rambling nonsense.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
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Amnesty International - a great organization deserving of your support - is reporting on problems in Libya. -- your kidding right>???

In wartime, human values respecting life are typically eroded. Libya is no exception.

Also, forces/terrorists/rebels built up are often a problem after the war is over.

Reports are that the rebels are now capturing people suspected of affiliation with the Qadafi regime and torturing them, executing them, imprisoning thousands.

People might remember what happened after the American civil war, when the South was pretty trashed by the Northern forces.

Good for Amnesty reporting on this, to help get the situation controlled.
-- You mean that highly controversial organization that under the guise of human right is anti -Israel.....

•Amnesty International (AI) describes itself as a “worldwide movement of people who campaign for internationally recognized human rights for all.”

•It claims to be “Independent of any government, political ideology, economic interest or religion… it does not support or oppose any government or political system.”

•AI disproportionately singles out Israel for condemnation, focusing solely on the conflict with the Palestinians, misrepresenting the complexity of the conflict, and ignoring more severe human rights violations in the region.

Allegations of “war crimes”: Distorts international law, misusing terms like “collective punishment,” “occupying power,” and “disproportionate” in its condemnations of Israel’s Gaza policy.

•AI’s report, “Operation ‘Cast Lead’: 22 Days of Death and Destruction” (July 2009), charges Israel with “war crimes” during the conflict. The 127-page publication ignores considerable evidence that Hamas used human shields, minimizes Palestinian violations of international law, and promotes boycotts and “lawfare” against Israel.

•During the Second Lebanon War in 2006, AI unjustifiably accused Israel of “war crimes” and “deliberate attacks on civilians,” and relied on Lebanese “eyewitnesses” to allege that Hezbollah did not operate in population centers.

•AI hosted a “Russell Tribunal on Palestine” on November 8, 2010, dealing with “Corporate complicity in Israel’s violations of International Law.”

•Lawfare: On February 2, 2009, several media outlets reported that AI transferred files to the International Criminal Court (ICC) Prosecutor regarding alleged “war crimes” committed by Israel. These reports made no mention of any AI initiative regarding Hamas war crimes aided by Iran and Syria.

•AI defended the exploitation of British courts by pro-Palestinian “lawfare” activists. Amnesty-UK Director Kate Allen, along with other NGO officials, signed a letter published in the Guardian (“We must not renege on war crime laws,” January 16, 2010), protesting proposed changes to British law that would limit the unregulated access to UK judges that allows for politically motivated cases.

•Arms embargo against Israel: Campaigns for an arms embargo against Israel, while ignoring the massive flow of offensive weapons and explosives from Iran and Syria into Gaza. An April 1, 2009 press release (“Shipment reaches Israel, President Obama urged to halt further exports”) revealed that AI tracked a vessel carrying arms across the Atlantic Ocean and through the Mediterranean Sea. Amnesty-USA accompanied this report with a call for action, including letters to Secretary of State Clinton labeling Israel a “grave violator of human rights” and demanding to know the “reason behind sending these arms now.”

•Defending those linked to terror: Following the January 2011 conviction and sentencing of Ittijah head Ameer Makhoul on charges of spying for Hezbollah, AI claimed, “Ameer Makhoul’s jailing is a very disturbing development...[He] is well known for his human rights activism on behalf of Palestinians in Israel and those living under Israeli occupation. We fear that this may be the underlying reason for his imprisonment.”

•In 2010, senior staff member Gita Saghal was suspended after she condemned AI’s alliance with an alleged Taliban supporter.

•“Apartheid” rhetoric: The release of the report “Troubled Waters – Palestinians Denied Fair Access to Water” (October 2009) coincided with a campaign alleging that “Israel’s Control of Water [is] a Tool of Apartheid and a Means of Ethnic Cleansing.” Ben White, author of Israeli Apartheid: A Beginners Guide, spoke at the Amnesty-UK release of the report, as well as at other Amnesty-UK events.

•In August 2010, the executive director of Amnesty-Finland, Frank Johansson, referred to Israel as “a scum state” on his blog.


http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/amnesty_international
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
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Per AP, Libya's Prime Minister has been kidnapped by rebels.

And it was easy to do... the rebels have the best military gear the U.S. taxpayer could buy. Some of it stolen and some of it provided by the current administration.
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
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Hillary and Kerry are going to be mentioned in the history books for sure, I wonder if merely for incompetence.
 
Apr 27, 2012
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Libya is still in turmoil because of that moron obama. Getting rid of Ghadaffi was a big mistake and allowed the al-qaida backed rebels to take over. The same ones who said they supported sharia law.

Has obama been held responsible for what happened? No

Will his supporters call him out? NO
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Yes I realize it's necroed, but for years to come the title will still be valid. You might make a reasonable argument for intercession for US security purposes. It will likely not make the situation any better but it would be for a clearly stated purpose with a defined target. I could see that for Libya. Then we could lose our marbles again as with Saddam and go after, oh, Assad, and maybe some Russian POS will save ourselves from that.

Of course the Syrians are pretty much screwed either way, but at least the current loser in chief has his precious ego spared by Putin and Assad. The Syrians are going to die no matter what but we saved them. I don't know how people reconcile that with reality, but they don't care about Syrians or Libyans at all. They want to make the guy in office look good.

Sadly there isn't a fix for all this at least not in the short term and our leadership hasn't demonstrated that it could open a box of Pocky sticks without messing it up so it's good they don't try.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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That's because Amnesty International is a useless organization that spends far more time getting its panties in a twist over terrorists being waterboarded than over actual human rights violations.
I very much agree with that, but in this case I think Craig is right. AI is doing something good by pointing out the ongoing civilian deaths.

As for Qadaffi, he was an ally for the last few years, but I don't think you can say he was our friend. More like the enemy of our enemy. He did divest himself of his WMD, but that's not evolving to the good side, just a desire to not be the next Saddam. I'm not sure why Europe turned on him, but it's clear that we did our air strikes at the behest of our NATO allies, and given Clinton's demands whatever reasons they had seemed to have been persuasive to us too.

One thing is clear - Middle Eastern & African Muslim nations have only two natural states, murderous brutal dictatorship and murderous brutal anarchy. Hopefully the fledgling Iraqi democracy will survive and show a better way.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,958
55,344
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I very much agree with that, but in this case I think Craig is right. AI is doing something good by pointing out the ongoing civilian deaths.

As for Qadaffi, he was an ally for the last few years, but I don't think you can say he was our friend. More like the enemy of our enemy. He did divest himself of his WMD, but that's not evolving to the good side, just a desire to not be the next Saddam. I'm not sure why Europe turned on him, but it's clear that we did our air strikes at the behest of our NATO allies, and given Clinton's demands whatever reasons they had seemed to have been persuasive to us too.

One thing is clear - Middle Eastern & African Muslim nations have only two natural states, murderous brutal dictatorship and murderous brutal anarchy. Hopefully the fledgling Iraqi democracy will survive and show a better way.

Turkey in particular and to a lesser degree Jordan provide some pretty good counter-examples to that.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Turkey in particular and to a lesser degree Jordan provide some pretty good counter-examples to that.
I personally would not call Turkey a Middle Eastern country; being located in the Near East (Anatolia) and Europe (Thrace) it's as European as Asian. Jordan I'll give you. It's certainly the shining example of Muslim Middle Eastern nations and indeed, Muslim nations everywhere. Although I do remember a Muslim fellow engineering student from just thirty-odd years ago who, having borne a child out of wedlock, was unable to go back to Jordan because her family would kill her. Literally kill her; that is not a figure of speech.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,958
55,344
136
I personally would not call Turkey a Middle Eastern country; being located in the Near East (Anatolia) and Europe (Thrace) it's as European as Asian. Jordan I'll give you. It's certainly the shining example of Muslim Middle Eastern nations and indeed, Muslim nations everywhere. Although I do remember a Muslim fellow engineering student from just thirty-odd years ago who, having borne a child out of wedlock, was unable to go back to Jordan because her family would kill her. Literally kill her; that is not a figure of speech.

The "Near East" and the "Middle East" are synonymous, and Turkey is considered part of the Middle East in every definition I'm aware of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East

As for Jordan, you appeared to be talking about how Middle Eastern countries are either mired in anarchy or have brutal dictatorships. Jordan today is really neither, although the government is still notably more repressive than western ones. As for cultural shittiness, sure, there's still plenty of that.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
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Meh. Kaddafi got a gold star for lending the Bushistas a propaganda coup in giving up his trumped up "nuclear program". They needed it badly at the time, he delivered, and was suitably & cynically rewarded with a veneer of "respectability". He never was "our guy", not like Reza Pahlavi, Augusto Pinochet, Mubarak or the Saudi Royals, either.

OTOH, he needed more than that to stand against a popular uprising w/o enormous bloodshed, which was where "friendship" evaporated, particularly with the change in Admins. He was obviously not to be trusted, at all, so it apparently seemed better to throw the dice than to put up with his shit. Nato air support clearly tipped the balance, but the weapons on the ground were largely there before the revolt, in the hands of the Libyan military, and were commandeered by the rebels.

If there's any American fault to be found in the current situation, it's in not giving the rightful govt the tools it needs to subdue the militias.

Our Israeli "friends", meanwhile, are loving it, given that much of the support for the Pals came from Libya & Syria. Now fighting among themselves, it gives the Israelis more freedom to act in their own selfish interests. They'll do what they can to keep stirring the pot, bet on it.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
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<snip>
Our Israeli "friends", meanwhile, are loving it, given that much of the support for the Pals came from Libya & Syria. Now fighting among themselves, it gives the Israelis more freedom to act in their own selfish interests. They'll do what they can to keep stirring the pot, bet on it.

When the Pals and other Arabs accept that Israel has a right to be there; then there is no need to stir the pot
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,748
10,055
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Is this the future of all nations?

Stop and wonder if we all end up with enough poverty to pave the way for violent rebellion and ensuing gang warfare. How do the nations that have fallen stop this and rise back up without first employing the medieval methods of nation building against tribalism?

Any government that could rise from the ashes is going to have a lot of blood on its hands. Our involvement will merely add our blood to the mix.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,243
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Libya is still in turmoil because of that moron obama. Getting rid of Ghadaffi was a big mistake and allowed the al-qaida backed rebels to take over. The same ones who said they supported sharia law.

Has obama been held responsible for what happened? No

Will his supporters call him out? NO

Obama did not "oust" Ghadaffi. There were 19 countries who militarily intervened, of which the US was one. It wasn't our initiative that sparked the intervention either. It was that of the French and British. The French flew far more combat missions there than the US did.

The Libyan state was going down one way or another. The entire point of the US intervening was so that we would be seen as supporting the winning side.

It's amusing how American conservatives want to hold Obama responsible for whatever bad things happen in Libya now, by re-writing the history of the conflict to make US intervention the deciding factor in the outcome. Ghadaffi was going down one way or another, with or without US intervention.
 
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