Liberals now buying guns

[momeNt]

Do you read the federalist papers in your spare time? I'd prefer to hear your own original arguments, and if you want to copy/paste from nra dot com, at least be honest about where you got it from.

Hamilton suggested that citizens turn to arms when "the representatives of the people betray their constituents"

So, would you consider state sanctioned killing of black people, as we've seen on cell phone video over the last few years to be a betrayal? Do you think that BLM or any protest movement in response would be justified in bearing arms against the police, because MAN, it sure doesn't look like the 2A people in here think that.

There isn't anything wrong with sourcing contemporary material in order to support my argument for the 2A. I don't visit or support the NRA.

edit: need to learn to multiquote.

Re: moment...

That's not the discussion at hand.

I'm not for more gun control.

I gave you reasoning behind what you believe is a quality that potentially unites American's on both sides of the political divide, fear.

But, is it fear of our government? No, it's fear of our fellow American's that's driving it.

So again, count it a win in your book. Not everyone is.

The core underlying principle of the 2A is self-defense. As stated in the paper I quoted. The "original right of self-defense" it goes to further say that basically self-defense extends to when the government is harming you. But still there at its core is self-defense.

I mean I guess the world is a scary place, that is a truth that people didn't believe until Trump was elected, it didn't make it any less true before they believed it.

 

[interchange]

Our founding fathers' fervor for gun rights was driven by their successful use in overthrowing a government that had become tyrannical to them.

I could appreciate arguments that either this need doesn't apply in today's society or that this need is greater than ever.

But I don't think it matters. An organized militia would no longer have the power to threaten the US government.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I agree. but an organized militia could certainly threaten fellow American's that have differing views.

 

[Blackjack200]

I think that without the Dallas sniper, and heroes like Chris Dorner, the cops would have operated for much longer with impunity.

Obviously Chris Dorner is a better example, he knew who the pigs were before going after them, the Dallas sniper did not operate with as much scrutiny into the particular cops he was targeting.

It sends a clear message that there is a problem, and it needs to be fixed. It basically a shot across the bow, and to continue down that course would invite real conflict.

Without some person who really transcends what it means to be human like MLK, an inspirational visionary and leader of people, it will take actions of men like the Dorner to spur a greater level of accountability among those we entrust with our governance.

Wow, okay, I don't agree, but I'll say that at least you're sincere.

There isn't anything wrong with sourcing contemporary material in order to support my argument for the 2A. I don't visit or support the NRA.

The issue is not that its contemporary, the issue that if its provided by an agenda-driven organization, it's only fair to disclose where you got it because they might not provide it with the context or interpretation that an organization with a different agenda might have. And you still haven't disclosed where you got it.

I mean I guess the world is a scary place, that is a truth that people didn't believe until Trump was elected, it didn't make it any less true before they believed it.

I don't agree that the world is a scary place, I don't feel that way pre Trump or now. I'm sad at what's being destroyed, but not afraid.

 

[chucky2]

So you think that kind of behavior is consistent with what Hamilton wanted? Like, the Dallas sniper was just acting in accordance of what the founding fathers said we should do when betrayed by the state?

I think citizens have legal means to pursue change they so desire. If the legal means is being usurped or isn't working, then citizens need to determine their next step. At some point long down the line, lethal action may be a course they so choose. The problem though is these citizens we have choose the wrong targets. Shooting up some low level no one at the Corp that screwed you doesn't do anything, shoot the CEO or head of legal or whatnot. Tired of the local police beating up you and your people, and you're getting no where? Then cap the police chief instead of some random officer out on the job.

When enough of the chiefs are losing their lives, the other chiefs will start making sure they don't so casually ignore/intentionally circumvent issues.

Now, obviously, this doesn't mean because the worker at Taco Bell got my gordita wrong, and Taco Bell complaint page hasn't responded in the last 1.35544255 hours, that it's time for me to Chris Kyle on the Taco Bell CEO. But at some point, an armed citizenry, or at least some sizable chunk of it, can make their point heard...and when it gets to that point, a.) actually being armed is important and b.) actually shooting a few people is probably what'll be needed to get the point across.

Look at the US now: We've got this massive Fed Gov, essentially uncontrollable, out of control Gov corruption, Corp. overlords, etc. And we're going to vote to change that? In our dreams. We're never coming back from where we're at now until things get so bad, the Political whore/Corp whore Leadership starts experiencing the pink mist. They will do everything they can to maintain the fog right up until the inevitable happens. Personally, I'd rather be armed than not, and assuming the same Leadership that doesn't want decision competition is going to ensure that competition has an effective means to compete with them when the time comes is...very naive.

 

[momeNt]

Our founding fathers' fervor for gun rights was driven by their successful use in overthrowing a government that had become tyrannical to them.

I could appreciate arguments that either this need doesn't apply in today's society or that this need is greater than ever.

But I don't think it matters. An organized militia would no longer have the power to threaten the US government.

Wow, okay, I don't agree, but I'll say that at least you're sincere.



The issue is not that its contemporary, the issue that if its provided by an agenda-driven organization, it's only fair to disclose where you got it because they might not provide it with the context or interpretation that an organization with a different agenda might have. And you still haven't disclosed where you got it.



I don't agree that the world is a scary place, I don't feel that way pre Trump or now. I'm sad at what's being destroyed, but not afraid.

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/quotes/arms.html although from Virginia, still a basically liberal leaning university.

My google that led me there....

http://bfy.tw/94Z0

yes, I admit, I'm pathetic, that's why I'm on ATPN.

I mean, BLM could sit around and wait for another MLK, but who knows when that person is going to come around? Maybe never? So what is the alternative. That was more or less my point.

 

[Blackjack200]

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/quotes/arms.html although from Virginia, still a basically liberal leaning university.

My google that led me there....

http://bfy.tw/94Z0

yes, I admit, I'm pathetic, that's why I'm on ATPN.

Thanks. I have no problem with that source.

I mean, BLM could sit around and wait for another MLK, but who knows when that person is going to come around? Maybe never? So what is the alternative. That was more or less my point.

The alternative is that you work for reform.

 

[Bitek]

I think he is mistaking PTSD for the euphoric feelings of liberty. The biggest feelings of Americanism i get are when I hear the national anthem being sung, and firing a firearm.

You are both fucking weirdos if serious.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I mean I guess the world is a scary place, that is a truth that people didn't believe until Trump was elected, it didn't make it any less true before they believed it.

Back to my original point: The Liberals who are now buying guns don't feel safe now.

You want to believe fear will unite us, not everyone agrees.

The people who you're championing acquiring weapons now didn't feel the need to before, and it's because they didn't feel the need to before.

This is the third time I've replied with this, and staying on point. I'm sorry you can't understand, and grasping at the 2A's history as some sort of lesson for me isn't going to gain you understanding. Spend some time around people who feel the negative vibe of the Trumpettes...it's really not a difficult reality to grasp.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Back to my original point: The Liberals who are now buying guns don't feel safe now.

You are not correct. They finally put the models we wanted to buy on sale so we made our purchases accordingly.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Lol

 

[Chaotic42]

I think he is mistaking PTSD for the euphoric feelings of liberty. The biggest feelings of Americanism i get are when I hear the national anthem being sung, and firing a firearm.

If everything he said is true, I'd suggest he seek counseling. I shot one as a teenager and my only feeling was "Wow, that was cool", and I don't even particularly like firearms.

 

[Kazukian]

You are not correct. They finally put the models we wanted to buy on sale so we made our purchases accordingly.

I think he is mistaking PTSD for the euphoric feelings of liberty. The biggest feelings of Americanism i get are when I hear the national anthem being sung, and firing a firearm.

What was funnier was all the YouTube videos he inspired of pre teens shooting AR's, and others recording an AR being shot while held on their nose.

Now he's calling for violence against Trump.

 

[IronWing]

I think he is mistaking PTSD for the euphoric feelings of liberty. The biggest feelings of Americanism i get are when I hear the national anthem being sung, and firing a firearm.

I've never fired an AR-15 but I figure it would be hella fun. Exploding targets would be even more fun.

<= leftist

 

[momeNt]

Back to my original point: The Liberals who are now buying guns don't feel safe now.

You want to believe fear will unite us, not everyone agrees.

The people who you're championing acquiring weapons now didn't feel the need to before, and it's because they didn't feel the need to before.

This is the third time I've replied with this, and staying on point. I'm sorry you can't understand, and grasping at the 2A's history as some sort of lesson for me isn't going to gain you understanding. Spend some time around people who feel the negative vibe of the Trumpettes...it's really not a difficult reality to grasp.

No I get it. They don't feel safe NOW. The LGBT person stopped feeling safe after they saw lovely human spraypainted on a building 1,000 miles away, but felt perfectly safe, or safe enough to not buy a gun, after the Orlando massacre. My point is it was irrational to feel safe in the first place, in light of the world around us. I'm glad they are investing in 2A insurance, that's all. I just like seeing the brighter side of things.

 

[glenn1]

Back to my original point: The Liberals who are now buying guns don't feel safe now.

You want to believe fear will unite us, not everyone agrees.

The people who you're championing acquiring weapons now didn't feel the need to before, and it's because they didn't feel the need to before.

This is the third time I've replied with this, and staying on point. I'm sorry you can't understand, and grasping at the 2A's history as some sort of lesson for me isn't going to gain you understanding. Spend some time around people who feel the negative vibe of the Trumpettes...it's really not a difficult reality to grasp.

They probably voted for the same candidate and party that told the Trump supporters they were paranoid xenophobes who feared illegal immigrants and how that fear was unjustified. Seems to me they should take their own advice now since their preferred candidate lost. The liberals buying guns are no more subject to organized, systematic violence now then before Trump even decided to run. Sure random lone nut shootings, hate crimes, and the like will continue under Trump like they happened under Obama, Bush before him, Clinton before him, et cetera but there won't be some government directed Kristallnacht against gays or liberals.

And the more minorities, liberals, and others who are non-typical gun owners who decide to join the ranks of those exercising their 2nd Amendment rights the better. Having the majority of law abiding citiziens in the inner city ghettos arming themselves would do more than perhaps anything else to tamp down the dystopian environment the criminal element in those neighborhoods have created. Gun control has historically been and probably always will be motivated by racism at its core.

http://www.mtv.com/news/2900230/the-really-really-racist-history-of-gun-control-in-america/

http://www.salon.com/2015/06/24/gun...al_argument_against_giving_police_more_power/

 

[pauldun170]

Or maybe "Liberals" have always bought guns and that the article is trying paint some picture that people fear Trumpville so much that they are getting ready to live a Red Dawn lifestyle.
Cause that's the cool thing thing to write about this Christmas.
How everyone is scared of Trump and his merry men.

The debate between the sides has always been about what reasonable regulations look like.
You get the drama queens on each side that make a lot of noise but that is poor representation of actual gun owners.

 

[Kazukian]

Or maybe "Liberals" have always bought guns and that the article is trying paint some picture that people fear Trumpville so much that they are getting ready to live a Red Dawn lifestyle.
Cause that's the cool thing thing to write about this Christmas.
How everyone is scared of Trump and his merry men.

The debate between the sides has always been about what reasonable regulations look like.
You get the drama queens on each side that make a lot of noise but that is poor representation of actual gun owners.

Exactly. The BBC has an anti gun spin, many in the U.K. feel the same way.

 

[Puffnstuff]

I've never fired an AR-15 but I figure it would be hella fun. Exploding targets would be even more fun.

AR's in 5.56 have a very low recoil and a linear one at that making them easy to handle. Tannerite works wonders when you hit the target.

 

[momeNt]

AR's in 5.56 have a very low recoil and a linear one at that making them easy to handle. Tannerite works wonders when you hit the target.

Boy am I glad it was a dead oak tree, I bristled at the title but then saw all the dead branches laying around the thing.

 

[SlowSpyder]

After the Orlando night club shooting I started to wonder if we'd see the left begin to embrace their 2nd amendment rights. I think much of their fear over Trump is unwarranted, but still see them warming up to the 2nd as a fantastic thing.

 

[Puffnstuff]

The right has a misconception about Democrats and guns. I'm a Democrat, former U.S. Army Military Policeman, and have been around guns all of my life. Although I don't have one now I've had a concealed carry for many years and do not fear guns in any way except when they are in the hands of criminals and irresponsible owners. I had to break free from my own biases to see where irresponsibility in ownership causes many gun related incidents. Sandy Hook had an irresponsible parent who allowed her teenage son to access the AR-15 used to commit the school shooting. If that rifle had been properly secured he couldn't have used it to conduct the shooting.

My own father refuses to use trigger locks or a safe with this firearms yet allows small children to roam around the house with them in close proximity. These behaviors will continue to expose people to senseless gun related incidents. I only oppose irresponsible gun ownership so its important to make the distinction between general gun grabbers vs those like myself who oppose irresponsible ownership and want stiffer penalties imposed when it is the proximate cause of a gun related incident.

 

[Blackjack200]

My own father refuses to use trigger locks or a safe with this firearms yet allows small children to roam around the house with them in close proximity. These behaviors will continue to expose people to senseless gun related incidents. I only oppose irresponsible gun ownership so its important to make the distinction between general gun grabbers vs those like myself who oppose irresponsible ownership and want stiffer penalties imposed when it is the proximate cause of a gun related incident.

Stiffer penalties will do nothing. I probably have a reputation around here as a "gun grabber", but I'm more alarmed about the gun culture here than the gun laws. Your father's behavior is a perfect example. There is a prevailing cowboy mentality when it comes to guns, and it leads to shit like leaving ARs lying around for an angry teenager to pick up and murder a bunch of kids. You don't leave dangerous objects lying around where children can get to them, and the American people have shown themselves to be a bunch of children when it comes to guns.

 

[pauldun170]

The right has a misconception about Democrats and guns. I'm a Democrat, former U.S. Army Military Policeman, and have been around guns all of my life. Although I don't have one now I've had a concealed carry for many years and do not fear guns in any way except when they are in the hands of criminals and irresponsible owners. I had to break free from my own biases to see where irresponsibility in ownership causes many gun related incidents. Sandy Hook had an irresponsible parent who allowed her teenage son to access the AR-15 used to commit the school shooting. If that rifle had been properly secured he couldn't have used it to conduct the shooting.

My own father refuses to use trigger locks or a safe with this firearms yet allows small children to roam around the house with them in close proximity. These behaviors will continue to expose people to senseless gun related incidents. I only oppose irresponsible gun ownership so its important to make the distinction between general gun grabbers vs those like myself who oppose irresponsible ownership and want stiffer penalties imposed when it is the proximate cause of a gun related incident.

My upbringing checks off all the scary check marks
Single Black mother who happened to be an immigrant and we happened to live in an apartment building that some might consider "the projects". Pretty sure we were on assistance at the time. Mom worked 2 jobs so we were latchkey kids (sister is 15 months older) as well.
I found my mothers revolver at the age of 5.
She had hidden it in a closet but unfortunately for her we were expert Christmas present hunters who could find anything with the help of our pet cockroaches.
5 year old me looked at the bullets and thought they were blanks.
Wanted to see how loud it was or something 5 year olds think when they have a gun in their hands
I murdered the couch.

This was back in the 70's so if you have ever been exposed to 70's furniture you would understand that it was the right thing to do.

tldr; Cool Starry bra about stuff.

Do I think gunlocks and laws concerning how you store weapons would have saved the couch?
Beats me.

FYI: I'm still an awesome Christmas present finder. That and car keys.
just saying

...another post I ended up typing up but had sitting unposted in a browser window. One of those "WTF did I type that but I typed too much to just throw it away"
Garbage can b-ball says post it so here it is

 

[momeNt]

Adam Lanza was 20 years old. At that age, maybe the mother no longer was worried about his access to guns, and locked them up only when she was leaving the house empty. She could have also been cleaning them or something.

She fails at a whole different aspect of parenting though, she failed to recognize her son was completely insane, did not ever once enter his room to see a wall-sized spreadsheet of mass shootings, or catch any of the red-flags surrounding this kid that a mother, if anybody should be expected to find out.

It's parenting fail, but the argument for using a safe to keep guns away from kids, and using Sandy Hook as an example, is probably not the right one.