Liberal vs Conservative -- semantic and historical approach

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compcons

Platinum Member
Oct 22, 2004
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Some further discussions points of your examples:

  • Blacks can't be racists. - Double-standard I suppose. Although a black person can definitely be a racist, it's unlikely that the word is being used correctly. I would suggest that you look up the definition and stop listening to how some politicians and talk show hosts are trying to label things. Simply calling something what it is not does not make it so. Seriously, google the definition and apply it to whatever you are referring to here.
  • It's okay to hit a man, while the reverse is despicable no matter the context. - Double-standard (I personally don't think it's cool to hit someone significantly weaker than you - especially women).
  • The claim that women are payed less than men, ignoring situations where women are actually paid more. - Statistically speaking, this is FACT. Although there are exceptions, the strong general trend is absolutely true. You should also look up SEXISM while you are in the dictionary.
  • It's okay for groups like antifa to be violent and suppress others because of who they're against. - This is touchy. People always want to suppress those that they are opposed to. The reason Antifa gets a pass from some people is because what the group they are against consists of people who think non-whites are inferior and should not be allowed the same rights and even killed - let's not forget the holocaust okay?
  • The support for censorship at universities and colleges. - Free speech representing divisive ideologies is a tough one. Many organizations don't want to create an atmosphere of controversy so they are selective on who they allow to present in their venues. Free speech doesn't give someone the right to override local rules, regulations, or a colleges charter. And it certainly doesn't mean anyone can use a campus facility to talk about or do whatever they want to do simple because "free speech". The power of free speech doesn't allow me to stand on your front lawn and talk about cake recipes because my free speech doesn't override your properties privacy (or your fence, dog, gun, etc.).
I know these are just examples bu they are some pretty interesting topics. Facts and definitions are important. Lies are NOT "alternative facts" and you can't redefine words because you don't like them.
 
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compcons

Platinum Member
Oct 22, 2004
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In present day America if you don't like your religion, you leave it and walk away. It's not as if the Catholics are going to send out catechism officers or child welfare police or other authorities to send you to Catholic prison if you don't toe their line. Baptists are not going to throw you in jail if you don't pay your tithes.
They have no authority over you unless you give it to them. Try that with your State or Federal or local authorities.

- Except Scientologist. Those fuckers are crazy. They WILL find you!!!
 
Jul 9, 2009
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- Except Scientologist. Those fuckers are crazy. They WILL find you!!!
I have no knowledge of Scientologists. I do have experience with running afoul of the mighty "PC" police on college campuses. Where if you step outside the bounds of their political correct terminology you risk being kicked off campus, risk physical violence and risk being expelled.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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I have no knowledge of Scientologists. I do have experience with running afoul of the mighty "PC" police on college campuses. Where if you step outside the bounds of their political correct terminology you risk being kicked off campus, risk physical violence and risk being expelled.

Nice projection.
 

justoh

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2013
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It's hypocritical how regressives oppose some forms of fascism/totalitarianism yet defend islam/religion. They also fight fascism with more fascism.
 
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FFFF

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Dec 20, 2015
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I think you need to get some clarification on the definition of PC versus double-standard. (Politically, one party has tried to blur those lines.)

Technically, PC is avoiding (or trying to avoid) insulting people. For example, calling someone who makes a bad decision "retarded" could be offensive to someone who is in fact medically retarded (or those who may have friends who are retarded).

It can easily be taken to extremes (hence the notion that PC has made people "soft" or fragile) and can be seen to infringe on individuals freedom of speech (which is one reason you don't see much legislation around the topic as it would almost always violate the first amendment .

Your examples above all seem very much like double-standards, which have nothing to do with PC. Double-standards are the do as I say, not as I do and are more in-line with hypocrisy. For example, someone who complains about a person who takes too much damn vacation or plays too much golf, and then doing those exact things themself.

Those examples were made in reponse to @Jhhnn's question
What hypocrisy does neo-liberalism attempt to legitimize?

Pretty clear this was all along about hypocrisy and double standards that keep being legitimized by followers of modern neo-liberalism like mainstream media and many universities/colleges authorities. All these are connected with political correctness, as in it's a direct cause of advocating "political corectness" to the extreme levels of today. What's dumbfounding is how @Jhhnn answer was an inane denial of these examples, showing just how brainwashed people are by identity politics and social conditioning.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
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Those examples were made in reponse to @Jhhnn's question


Pretty clear this was all along about hypocrisy and double standards that keep being legitimized by followers of modern neo-liberalism like mainstream media and many universities/colleges authorities. All these are connected with political correctness, as in it's a direct cause of advocating "political corectness" to the extreme levels of today. What's dumbfounding is how @Jhhnn answer was an inane denial of these examples, showing just how brainwashed people are by identity politics and social conditioning.

The only thing that is pretty clear is that you have no fucking idea what you are talking about. For one, as has been pointed out, your examples aren't examples of political correctness at all, they are of double standards, aka hypocrisy. Hypocrisy isn't bound by party affiliation or political leaning so I'm not sure what your point was with regards to the topic at hand or to jhnnn.

Liberalism has had a negative connotation with it well before being PC became a thing so even if you knew what the fuck you were talking about your point would still be bullshit.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
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It's hypocritical how regressives oppose some forms of fascism/totalitarianism yet defend islam/religion. They also fight fascism with more fascism.

Sure they do...in your world. In the real world they oppose all forms of fascism/totalitarianism, the difference is that they don't label everything that disagrees with them as being fascist or totalitarian. They don't defend islam or religion, they defend your right to practice them. They also defend religions from others who wish to paint religions with a wide brush (like how some consider Islam a religion of hate/terrorism).

The difference boils down to your inability to see things in terms other than black or white.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
40,874
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I have no knowledge of Scientologists. I do have experience with running afoul of the mighty "PC" police on college campuses. Where if you step outside the bounds of their political correct terminology you risk being kicked off campus, risk physical violence and risk being expelled.
But that would not be politically correct. That would be running afoul of what they consider politically correct. That isn't politically correct, it's what they themselves decide they will tolerate, something else entirely.

There is a disconnect going on here. Politically condoned would be a better term. Correct is correct. Ordained, sanctioned, approved, acceptable, allowed, permitted, those are other things. To denigrate the term "politically correct" is reprehensible, that is a point I am trying to make. I see it happening a lot and it makes me uneasy. I don't like it. To condone dismissing political correctness is akin to approving of anyone who takes a fringe position on darn near anything. There's a lot of this stuff going on these days and a lot of the time it's an intentional smoke screen.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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But that would not be politically correct. That would be running afoul of what they consider politically correct. That isn't politically correct, it's what they themselves decide they will tolerate, something else entirely.

There is a disconnect going on here. Politically condoned would be a better term. Correct is correct. Ordained, sanctioned, approved, acceptable, allowed, permitted, those are other things. To denigrate the term "politically correct" is reprehensible, that is a point I am trying to make. I see it happening a lot and it makes me uneasy. I don't like it. To condone dismissing political correctness is akin to approving of anyone who takes a fringe position on darn near anything. There's a lot of that going on these days and a lot of the time it's an intentional smoke screen.
Ooooh tap dancing with semantics. I love it. Correct ALWAYS means correct, no matter who says it and how it is said. So when President Trump says correct it means the same thing as when Occupy Wall Street says correct.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,759
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It's hypocritical how regressives oppose some forms of fascism/totalitarianism yet defend islam/religion. They also fight fascism with more fascism.

It has always been a risk that, in fighting, people lose themselves and even vote for a party without sharing many of the values. Then they go forth and threaten others... thereby alienating independents who would, upon education, support the values. Except they cannot reach that stage, or even begin the process if they are under assault and barriers have gone up everywhere.

It is human psychology to seek out comfort, and this damns our modern media. Imagine if P&N was on your phone... every new post beeps at you, day and night. Imagine if there were thousands of copies of each of us... all posting from our positions. The worst of us doing everything we can to verbally assault the others. The sheer noise of it all will downed out and kill any rationale discussion or thought process. With social media we end up retreating from one another and falling back into splintered tribes. But unlike before, the constant barrage has eliminated our healing process. How can we come together if we are always freshly divided?

Humanity is currently suffering the partisan death of a thousand cuts. 2016 was a huge warning flag. It has become unending.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,743
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I mean no offense. Your opinion is the normal one for a good person newer to our political situation. It assumes both sides simply have 'good people' with different views approaches on doing what's best.

The thing is, that's not the situation - but it takes time to learn that. You need to be open to the possibility that maybe there is only one correct party out of the two as well as the possibility that there isn't.

If you insist that regardless of the facts, they both 'have merit', then you have already lost.

Now, I'll say, they make it a LOT harder on you because unlike, say, the leader of North Korea or mass murderers or ISIL who don't pretend to be 'good guys', the parties - no matter how many millions they're trying to kill - WILL strongly try to appeal to you as good guys.

Witness Paul Ryan's learning to describe his "kill the poor" ideology as "help the poor". He knows it's a massive, 'big', perverse lie, but he also knows that just claiming he wants to help the poor is enough to make millions think he couldn't be possibly ruthlessly trying to kill them.

It MUST just be a difference of opinion on how best to help the poor. Except it's not.

Political lesson: people project.

Just as liars think everyone lies and thieves think everyone's a thief, good people think others are honest also.

And the sharks know that and take advantage. They have an utterly ruthless and devastating agenda people cannot even comprehend until they get educated about it.

Your last point is well-taken. I have a saying for it, 'being right for the wrong reasons'. I see people who have great positions on issues, but not for the right reasons. But that still has value over voting for great damage and in fact is a needed part of our voter base.

Any party will be made up of a good number of people who don't have the 'right reasons' for positions.
I think that what you are describing here is a belief system, an attempt to express truth as you see it. A zen master, I think, might express his political belief by holding up a stick. I think that what that would say, quite uselesslymind you, because to have asked what true morality is means one doesn't have the experience to understand it, is that morality is what the action that flow from conscious awareness. There is no prescription. There is only love, the infinite joy of being. Morality is its manifestation. These words are words from a nobody.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,026
2,879
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I mean no offense. Your opinion is the normal one for a good person newer to our political situation. It assumes both sides simply have 'good people' with different views approaches on doing what's best.

The thing is, that's not the situation - but it takes time to learn that. You need to be open to the possibility that maybe there is only one correct party out of the two as well as the possibility that there isn't.

If you insist that regardless of the facts, they both 'have merit', then you have already lost.

Now, I'll say, they make it a LOT harder on you because unlike, say, the leader of North Korea or mass murderers or ISIL who don't pretend to be 'good guys', the parties - no matter how many millions they're trying to kill - WILL strongly try to appeal to you as good guys.

Witness Paul Ryan's learning to describe his "kill the poor" ideology as "help the poor". He knows it's a massive, 'big', perverse lie, but he also knows that just claiming he wants to help the poor is enough to make millions think he couldn't be possibly ruthlessly trying to kill them.

It MUST just be a difference of opinion on how best to help the poor. Except it's not.

Political lesson: people project.

Just as liars think everyone lies and thieves think everyone's a thief, good people think others are honest also.

And the sharks know that and take advantage. They have an utterly ruthless and devastating agenda people cannot even comprehend until they get educated about it.

Your last point is well-taken. I have a saying for it, 'being right for the wrong reasons'. I see people who have great positions on issues, but not for the right reasons. But that still has value over voting for great damage and in fact is a needed part of our voter base.

Any party will be made up of a good number of people who don't have the 'right reasons' for positions.

Would it be OK if I offered a critique of your words that would be a bit challenging?
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
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OK, I'm not trying to start any fights, face off one faction against another, no confrontation wanted here.

I'm talking about the words L vs C. OK?

I grew up in the 50's and 60's in CA. Mostly in L.A., some in Berkeley, a haven of liberals if not radicals, and that's where I live now. "Conservative" meant you were constipated if not arthritic. "Don't trust anyone over 30" was a catch phrase of "the revolution".

So, I continue to wonder how they ever in any way anywhere gave liberal a bad connotation and how they gave conservative anything other than a bad connotation. And yes, I think a reasoned treatment of this has to have a semantic component. At the same time my mind is boggled by how they made "politically correct" something to disparage. What in God's name is wrong with "correct"? Is that not in the same camp as the oxymorons in George Orwell's 1984? War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, etc.? Please discuss these things without resorting to personal attacks.

Moved to P&N.
admin allisolm

Conservative literally means a preference to conserve the past, where it was ok to subjugate groups of lesser social status typically based on race or gender.

Liberalism was a set of enlightenment ethics which valued making progress from said past.

Pretty much all of politics, modern american politics in particular, is rationalization of this choice. Considering how much the world has changed in the last century and projecting into the future, it's not hard to figure which side of history each will be on.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,026
2,879
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I guess it depends on the critique.

Quite a catch 22. But yours was a thoughtful and well intended (I think) post, so I wanted to share my respect for that. Anyway, don't have time at this moment to comment so will have to wait.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
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I think that what you are describing here is a belief system, an attempt to express truth as you see it. A zen master, I think, might express his political belief by holding up a stick. I think that what that would say, quite uselesslymind you, because to have asked what true morality is means one doesn't have the experience to understand it, is that morality is what the action that flow from conscious awareness. There is no prescription. There is only love, the infinite joy of being. Morality is its manifestation. These words are words from a nobody.

The sheeple truly too stupid to understand such wisdom.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,142
10,040
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Those examples were made in reponse to @Jhhnn's question


Pretty clear this was all along about hypocrisy and double standards that keep being legitimized by followers of modern neo-liberalism like mainstream media and many universities/colleges authorities. All these are connected with political correctness, as in it's a direct cause of advocating "political corectness" to the extreme levels of today. What's dumbfounding is how @Jhhnn answer was an inane denial of these examples, showing just how brainwashed people are by identity politics and social conditioning.

Please stop trying to redefine/misuse the term 'neo-liberalism'. Ronald Reagan was a neo-liberal, as are most of the Republicans (except perhaps for some of the paleo-conservatives). Trump is one even though he pretends not to be.

Americans have already messed with the meaning of the word 'liberal' to a degree that confuses the rest of the world. Stop trying to make it worse.

PS the rest of what you say is also codswallop, but it's too tiring to engage with it. But changing the meaning of terms is just too much.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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Please stop trying to redefine/misuse the term 'neo-liberalism'. Ronald Reagan was a neo-liberal, as are most of the Republicans (except perhaps for some of the paleo-conservatives). Trump is one even though he pretends not to be.

Americans have already messed with the meaning of the word 'liberal' to a degree that confuses the rest of the world. Stop trying to make it worse.

Actually the american use of liberal is more in line with enlightenment liberals/liberalism. It's the euro liberals who are literally stuck in the past by drawing a line in the sand they won't cross, ie conservative.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Quite a catch 22. But yours was a thoughtful and well intended (I think) post, so I wanted to share my respect for that. Anyway, don't have time at this moment to comment so will have to wait.

Well, it was well-intended.

I'll look forward to your post.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Actually the american use of liberal is more in line with enlightenment liberals/liberalism. It's the euro liberals who are literally stuck in the past by drawing a line in the sand they won't cross, ie conservative.

The word is essentially meaningless when you bring in pre-20th century history.

You can go back to things like religious fundamentalism where basically any modern view would count as 'liberal'.

In my opinion: the word has a modern meaning: it's one side in the plutocracy/anti-plutocracy war that is the issue for civilization today.

People who try to introduce alternate/historical definitions are wittingly or unwittingly trying to sabotage that side with distraction.

It's not really the same today, but it's interesting to note how John F. Kennedy addressed this issue. He was running on the 'right' side of the Democratic Party, not aligned with the 'liberal wing' - but he was nominated by the 'liberal party', analogous to the 'Bernie Sanders wing'.

Here's an excerpt from his acceptance speech. He rarely called himself a liberal, but he sort of had to for this speech, and here's how he defined things for that purpose - calling himself a liberal while trying to stay on the right of the party.

For example, he was not a fan of the previous Democratic nominee who was more to the left, Adlai Stevenson. He was under pressure to appoint him Secretary of State, but didn't (making him UN Ambassador), but he complimented him in this speech.

Note how he calls himself 'liberal' here but his definition is awfully vague and not at all far to the left.\\

In fact, in this speech to declare himself a liberal to the Liberal Party, he's attacking federal spending and waste, and arguing for a strong anti-communism. Not unlike how FDR ran against big government when he won in 1932. But I've bolded a key passage below.

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label, "Liberal"? If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But, if by a "Liberal," they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people - their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties - someone who believes that we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say that I'm a "Liberal."

But first, I would like to say what I understand the word, "Liberal," to mean and explain in the process why I consider myself to be a "Liberal," and what it means in the presidential election of 1960.

In short, having set forth my views - I hope for all time - 2 nights ago in Houston, on the proper relationship between church and state, I want to take this opportunity to set forth my views on the proper relationship between the state and the citizen. This is my political credo:

I believe in human dignity as the source of national purpose, in human liberty as the source of national action, and the human heart as the source of national compassion, and in the human mind as the source of our invention and our ideas. It is, I believe, this faith in our fellow citizens as individuals and as people that lies at the heart of the liberal faith, for liberalism is not so much a party creed or a set of fixed platform promises as it is an attitude of mind and heart, a faith in man's ability through the experiences of his reason and judgment to increase for himself and his fellow men the amount of Justice and freedom and brotherhood which all human life deserves.

I believe also in the United States of America, in the promise that it contains and has contained throughout our history of producing a society so abundant and creative and so free and responsible that it cannot only fulfill the aspirations of its citizens, but serve equally well as a beacon for all mankind. I do not believe in a super state. I see no magic to tax dollars which are sent to Washington and then returned. I abhor the waste and incompetence of large-scale Federal bureaucracies in this administration, as well as in others. I do not favor state compulsion when voluntary individual effort can do the job and do it well. But I believe in a government which acts, which exercises its full powers and its full responsibilities. Government is an art and a precious obligation; and when it has a job to do, I believe it should do it. And this requires not only great ends but that we propose concrete means of achieving them.

Our responsibility is not discharged by an announcement of virtuous ends. Our responsibility is to achieve these objectives with social invention, with political skill, and executive vigor. I believe for these reasons, that liberalism is our best and our only hope in the world today. [Applause.] For the liberal society is a free society, and it is at the same time and for that reason a strong society. Its strength is drawn from the will of free people committed to great ends and peacefully striving to meet them. Only liberalism, in short, can repair our national power, restore our national purpose, and liberate our national energies. And the only basic issue in the 1960 presidential campaign is whether our Government will fall in a conservative rut and die there, or whether we will move ahead in the liberal spirit of daring, of breaking new ground, of doing in our generation what Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman and Adlai Stevenson did in their time of influence and responsibility.

Our liberalism has its roots in our diverse origins. Most of us are descended from that segment of the American population which was once called an immigrant minority. Today, along with our children and grandchildren, we do not feel minor. We feel proud of our origins and we are not second to any group in our sense of national purpose. For many years New York represented the new frontier to all those who came from the ends of the earth to find new opportunity and new freedom, generations of men and women who fled from the despotism of the czars, the horrors of the Nazis, the tyranny of hunger, who came here to the new frontier in the State of New York. These men and women, a living cross section of American history, indeed, a cross section of the entire world's history of pain and hope, made of this city and only a new world of opportunity, but a new world of the spirit as well.

Tonight we salute Governor and Senator Herbert Lehman as a symbol of that spirit and as a reminder that the fight for full constitutional rights for all Americans is a fight that must be carried on in 1961.

Many of these same immigrant families produced the pioneers and builders of the American labor movement. They are the men who sweated in our shops, who struggled to create a union, who were driven by longing for education for their children and for their children's development. They went to night schools; they built their own future, their union's future, and their country's future, brick by brick, block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood, and now in their children's time, suburb by suburb.

Tonight we salute George Meany as a symbol of that struggle and as a reminder that the fight to eliminate poverty and human exploitation is a fight that goes on in our own day. But in 1960 the cause of liberalism cannot content itself with carrying on the fight for human justice and economic liberalism here at home. For here and around the world the fear of war hangs over us every morning and every night. It lies, expressed or silent, in the minds of every American. We cannot banish it by repeating that we are economically first or that we are militarily first, for saying so doesn't make it so. More will be needed than good will missions or talking back to Soviet politicians or increasing the tempo of the arms race. More will be needed than good intentions, for we know where that paving leads.

In Winston Churchill's words, "We cannot escape our dangers by recoiling from them. We dare not pretend such dangers do not exist."

And tonight we salute Adlai Stevenson as an eloquent spokesman for the effort to achieve an intelligent foreign policy. Our opponents would like the people to believe that in the time of danger it would be hazardous to change the administration that has brought us to this time of danger. I think it would be hazardous not to change. I think it would be hazardous to continue 4 more years of stagnation and indifference at home and abroad, of starving the underpinnings of our national power, including not only our defense but our image abroad as a friend.