Liberal Suicide March

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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David Brooks takes a quick look at the overreaching of the current government and projects a failure, much as prior administrations have been forced to face when they failed to understand the wishes and will of the electorate.

I believe this is a call for independents and moderates to express their views and make their voices heard. The polls are really starting to show the growing disenchantment with the government programs and massive deficit spending being imposed by a one party government in Washington.

Maybe a return to sanity is in the works!

BTW, have you written or called your representatives in DC, or are you merely blowing off steam here in a forum for the comment of your peers?

Liberal Suicide March
by DAVID BROOKS

Published: July 20, 2009
The New York Times

It was interesting to watch the Republican Party lose touch with America. You had a party led by conservative Southerners who neither understood nor sympathized with moderates or representatives from swing districts.

They brought in pollsters to their party conferences to persuade their members that the country was fervently behind them. They were supported by their interest groups and cheered on by their activists and the partisan press. They spent federal money in an effort to buy support but ended up disgusting the country instead.

It?s not that interesting to watch the Democrats lose touch with America. That?s because the plotline is exactly the same. The party is led by insular liberals from big cities and the coasts, who neither understand nor sympathize with moderates. They have their own cherry-picking pollsters, their own media and activist cocoon, their own plans to lavishly spend borrowed money to buy votes.

This ideological overreach won?t be any more successful than the last one. A Washington Post-ABC News poll released Monday confirms what other polls have found. Most Americans love Barack Obama personally, but support for Democratic policies is already sliding fast.

Approval of Obama?s handling of health care, for example, has slid from 57 percent to 49 percent since April. Disapproval has risen from 29 percent to 44 percent. As recently as June, voters earning more than $50,000 preferred Obama to the Republicans on health care by a 21-point margin. Now those voters are evenly split.

Most independents now disapprove of Obama?s health care strategy. In March, only 32 percent of Americans thought Obama was an old-style, tax-and-spend liberal. Now 43 percent do.

We?re only in the early stages of the liberal suicide march, but there already have been three phases. First, there was the stimulus package. You would have thought that a stimulus package would be designed to fight unemployment and stimulate the economy during a recession. But Congressional Democrats used it as a pretext to pay for $787 billion worth of pet programs with borrowed money. Only 11 percent of the money will be spent by the end of the fiscal year ? a triumph of ideology over pragmatism.

Then there is the budget. Instead of allaying moderate anxieties about the deficits, the budget is expected to increase the government debt by $11 trillion between 2009 and 2019.

Finally, there is health care. Every cliché Ann Coulter throws at the Democrats is gloriously fulfilled by the Democratic health care bills. The bills do almost nothing to control health care inflation. They are modeled on the Massachusetts health reform law that is currently coming apart at the seams precisely because it doesn?t control costs. They do little to reward efficient providers and reform inefficient ones.

The House bill adds $239 billion to the federal deficit during the first 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office. It would pummel small businesses with an 8 percent payroll penalty. It would jack America?s top tax rate above those in Italy and France. Top earners in New York and California would be giving more than 55 percent of earnings to one government entity or another.

Nancy Pelosi has lower approval ratings than Dick Cheney and far lower approval ratings than Sarah Palin. And yet Democrats have allowed her policy values to carry the day ? this in an era in which independents dominate the electoral landscape.

Who?s going to stop this leftward surge? Months ago, it seemed as if Obama would lead a center-left coalition. Instead, he has deferred to the Old Bulls on Capitol Hill on issue after issue.

Machiavelli said a leader should be feared as well as loved. Obama is loved by the Democratic chairmen, but he is not feared. On health care, Obama has emphasized cost control. The chairmen flouted his priorities because they don?t fear him. On cap and trade, Obama campaigned against giving away pollution offsets. The chairmen wrote their bill to do precisely that because they don?t fear him. On taxes, Obama promised that top tax rates would not go above Clinton-era levels. The chairmen flouted that promise because they don?t fear him.

Last week, the administration announced a proposal to take Medicare spending decisions away from Congress and lodge the power with technocrats in the executive branch. It?s a good idea, and it might lead to real cost savings. But there?s no reason to think that it will be incorporated into the final law. The chairmen will never surrender power to an administration they can override.

That leaves matters in the hands of the Blue Dog Democrats. These brave moderates are trying to restrain the fiscal explosion. But moderates inherently lack seniority (they are from swing districts). They are usually bought off by leadership at the end of the day.

And so here we are again. Every new majority overinterprets its mandate. We?ve been here before. We?ll be here again.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Yeah, Obama needs to put more cost controls in, even if Republicans scream about rationing and government setting prices.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
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Top earners in New York and California would be giving more than 55 percent of earnings to one government entity or another.

Lost me there. He obviously doesn't understand marginal tax rates and/or assumes his readers won't either.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: SammyJr
Top earners in New York and California would be giving more than 55 percent of earnings to one government entity or another.

Lost me there. He obviously doesn't understand marginal tax rates and/or assumes his readers won't either.

It's an effective talking point so they'll continue to use it, the fact that most people don't understand it is.....what they're counting on.

Obama isn't overreaching, this is what he said he was going to do and people voted for him to get it done. So here we are.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I just wonder when will a true moderate party rish from the ashes of these two clown parties and control the govt? Let the republicans control their 20%, the democrats their 20% and the moderates the other 60%.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
I just wonder when will a true moderate party rish from the ashes of these two clown parties and control the govt? Let the republicans control their 20%, the democrats their 20% and the moderates the other 60%.

I think once we get a nice safety net set up and established, politics will moderate.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,475
10,922
136
Originally posted by: ayabe
Originally posted by: SammyJr
Top earners in New York and California would be giving more than 55 percent of earnings to one government entity or another.

Lost me there. He obviously doesn't understand marginal tax rates and/or assumes his readers won't either.

It's an effective talking point so they'll continue to use it, the fact that most people don't understand it is.....what they're counting on.

Obama isn't overreaching, this is what he said he was going to do and people voted for him to get it done. So here we are.

This is absolutely correct. There have been at least 2 posters here in the last few days that obviously aren't aware how the brackets work and when called on it they give the old "oh yeah? prove it."
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
We need more political parties.

Conservative Christian Party (Christians go here. Socially very conservative, mostly fiscally conservative. Right wing.)
Libertarian (Moderates and many Atheists go here. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Middle of the road.)
Green Party (Environmentalists go here. Left wing.)
Workers Party (Unions members, Communists, etc. Very Left wing.)
Pirate Party (Anarchists, etc. Basic goal is to fvck the other parties.)

Coalition government FTW!

And while we're at it, abolish the Electoral College / winner take all elections. Congress would be divided by the percentage of votes each party gets.

Edit: And ditch electronic voting. Every state must adopt the "giant scantron with pencil" ballot system.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
We need more political parties.

Conservative Christian Party (Christians go here. Socially very conservative, mostly fiscally conservative. Right wing.)
Libertarian (Moderates and many Atheists go here. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Middle of the road.)
Green Party (Environmentalists go here. Left wing.)
Workers Party (Unions members, Communists, etc. Very Left wing.)
Pirate Party (Anarchists, etc. Basic goal is to fvck the other parties.)

Coalition government FTW!

And while we're at it, abolish the Electoral College / winner take all elections. Congress would be divided by the percentage of votes each party gets.

Edit: And ditch electronic voting. Every state must adopt the "giant scantron with pencil" ballot system.

I think you're oversimplifying this. For example, where to the socially liberal, fiscally conservative, non-religious, environmentalists go?
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
I just wonder when will a true moderate party rish from the ashes of these two clown parties and control the govt? Let the republicans control their 20%, the democrats their 20% and the moderates the other 60%.

If there's one thing that could unite hardcore lefties and righties it would be to combine forces and crush without mercy any credible third party.

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
We need more political parties.

Conservative Christian Party (Christians go here. Socially very conservative, mostly fiscally conservative. Right wing.)
Libertarian (Moderates and many Atheists go here. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Middle of the road.)
Green Party (Environmentalists go here. Left wing.)
Workers Party (Unions members, Communists, etc. Very Left wing.)
Pirate Party (Anarchists, etc. Basic goal is to fvck the other parties.)

Coalition government FTW!

And while we're at it, abolish the Electoral College / winner take all elections. Congress would be divided by the percentage of votes each party gets.

Edit: And ditch electronic voting. Every state must adopt the "giant scantron with pencil" ballot system.

Well right now it's a choice between the Republican Party with their freedom crushing social conservative Ridicu..err..-Religious Right Ppower Base and the Democrats with their free spending Liberal base. Neither is very palatable but I dislike having Fundies or those pandering to Fundies telling me how to live my life than I do fiscally irresponsible Liberals who seem to be in charge of the Democratic Party
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
As I've said before, the GOP has no great plan to regain control of Congress, and likely won't be able to convince the public to give Congress back to the GOP on their own merits. Dems will however hand power back to the GOP through their overreaching. The Dems face three ugly options - 1) fail to fulfill their promises, chiefly on healthcare reform, 2) pass healthcare reform and raises taxes to pay for it, or 3) pass healthcare reform and explode the deficit further to pay for it. Any of the 3 is practically political suicide.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Mursilis
As I've said before, the GOP has no great plan to regain control of Congress, and likely won't be able to convince the public to give Congress back to the GOP on their own merits. Dems will however hand power back to the GOP through their overreaching. The Dems face three ugly options - 1) fail to fulfill their promises, chiefly on healthcare reform, 2) pass healthcare reform and raises taxes to pay for it, or 3) pass healthcare reform and explode the deficit further to pay for it. Any of the 3 is practically political suicide.
Actually I hope they fail with this draft of the Healthcare reform and go back to the drawing table. It's not something that should be worked out is such a short time, it needs a lot of debate and tweeking. Of course it would help if the party of No would get off their fat asses and try to contribute something to it even if it means they actually have to work hard instead of just being fucking contrary.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
That's why majority for either one party is really bad ... and the pendulum is about as far as as it can go, it will start going right again.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Mursilis
As I've said before, the GOP has no great plan to regain control of Congress, and likely won't be able to convince the public to give Congress back to the GOP on their own merits. Dems will however hand power back to the GOP through their overreaching. The Dems face three ugly options - 1) fail to fulfill their promises, chiefly on healthcare reform, 2) pass healthcare reform and raises taxes to pay for it, or 3) pass healthcare reform and explode the deficit further to pay for it. Any of the 3 is practically political suicide.
Actually I hope they fail with this draft of the Healthcare reform and go back to the drawing table. It's not something that should be worked out is such a short time, it needs a lot of debate and tweeking. Of course it would help if the party of No would get off their fat asses and try to contribute something to it even if it means they actually have to work hard instead of just being fucking contrary.

Who cares if they say no? Who cares what they say at all? They can't block a darn thing. They're a minority party for a reason. It's pointless for them to contribute a plan anyway, since it will never pass. Would you waste time writing a book if you knew the manuscript would just be thrown in the fire after you finished it? What's the point?
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Mursilis
As I've said before, the GOP has no great plan to regain control of Congress, and likely won't be able to convince the public to give Congress back to the GOP on their own merits. Dems will however hand power back to the GOP through their overreaching. The Dems face three ugly options - 1) fail to fulfill their promises, chiefly on healthcare reform, 2) pass healthcare reform and raises taxes to pay for it, or 3) pass healthcare reform and explode the deficit further to pay for it. Any of the 3 is practically political suicide.
Actually I hope they fail with this draft of the Healthcare reform and go back to the drawing table. It's not something that should be worked out is such a short time, it needs a lot of debate and tweeking. Of course it would help if the party of No would get off their fat asses and try to contribute something to it even if it means they actually have to work hard instead of just being fucking contrary.

Who cares if they say no? Who cares what they say at all? They can't block a darn thing. They're a minority party for a reason. It's pointless for them to contribute a plan anyway, since it will never pass. Would you waste time writing a book if you knew the manuscript would just be thrown in the fire after you finished it? What's the point?
You mean you think there's nothing they could add to it that might make it better?

 

Cutterhead

Senior member
Jul 13, 2005
527
0
76
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
We need more political parties.

Conservative Christian Party (Christians go here. Socially very conservative, mostly fiscally conservative. Right wing.)
Libertarian (Moderates and many Atheists go here. Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Middle of the road.)
Green Party (Environmentalists go here. Left wing.)
Workers Party (Unions members, Communists, etc. Very Left wing.)
Pirate Party (Anarchists, etc. Basic goal is to fvck the other parties.)

Coalition government FTW!

And while we're at it, abolish the Electoral College / winner take all elections. Congress would be divided by the percentage of votes each party gets.

Edit: And ditch electronic voting. Every state must adopt the "giant scantron with pencil" ballot system.

I think you're oversimplifying this. For example, where to the socially liberal, fiscally conservative, non-religious, environmentalists go?

Almost had me to a T up to the environmentalist bit. I mean, I understand having an appreciation for the environment and wishing to conserve resources and limit pollution and all that... but environmenntalists of today are hardly limited to such rational endeavors as those. I guess "fiscally conservative environmentalist" just sounds like an oxymoron to me.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Mursilis
As I've said before, the GOP has no great plan to regain control of Congress, and likely won't be able to convince the public to give Congress back to the GOP on their own merits. Dems will however hand power back to the GOP through their overreaching. The Dems face three ugly options - 1) fail to fulfill their promises, chiefly on healthcare reform, 2) pass healthcare reform and raises taxes to pay for it, or 3) pass healthcare reform and explode the deficit further to pay for it. Any of the 3 is practically political suicide.
Actually I hope they fail with this draft of the Healthcare reform and go back to the drawing table. It's not something that should be worked out is such a short time, it needs a lot of debate and tweeking. Of course it would help if the party of No would get off their fat asses and try to contribute something to it even if it means they actually have to work hard instead of just being fucking contrary.

Who cares if they say no? Who cares what they say at all? They can't block a darn thing. They're a minority party for a reason. It's pointless for them to contribute a plan anyway, since it will never pass. Would you waste time writing a book if you knew the manuscript would just be thrown in the fire after you finished it? What's the point?

What's the point of electing them if they have no plan?
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Mursilis
As I've said before, the GOP has no great plan to regain control of Congress, and likely won't be able to convince the public to give Congress back to the GOP on their own merits. Dems will however hand power back to the GOP through their overreaching. The Dems face three ugly options - 1) fail to fulfill their promises, chiefly on healthcare reform, 2) pass healthcare reform and raises taxes to pay for it, or 3) pass healthcare reform and explode the deficit further to pay for it. Any of the 3 is practically political suicide.
Actually I hope they fail with this draft of the Healthcare reform and go back to the drawing table. It's not something that should be worked out is such a short time, it needs a lot of debate and tweeking. Of course it would help if the party of No would get off their fat asses and try to contribute something to it even if it means they actually have to work hard instead of just being fucking contrary.

We've been "working on" health care reform for generations and if we don't get something in place, however flawed, we'll be waiting for the next time the Democrats have this much power. What did the Republicans do about health care in their 6 years of total control?
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
You mean you think there's nothing they could add to it that might make it better?

Could the GOP make it better? Maybe, but that really depends on how you define "better". Will the Dems incorporate any of the GOP's suggestions? Highly doubtful.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: SammyJr
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Mursilis
As I've said before, the GOP has no great plan to regain control of Congress, and likely won't be able to convince the public to give Congress back to the GOP on their own merits. Dems will however hand power back to the GOP through their overreaching. The Dems face three ugly options - 1) fail to fulfill their promises, chiefly on healthcare reform, 2) pass healthcare reform and raises taxes to pay for it, or 3) pass healthcare reform and explode the deficit further to pay for it. Any of the 3 is practically political suicide.
Actually I hope they fail with this draft of the Healthcare reform and go back to the drawing table. It's not something that should be worked out is such a short time, it needs a lot of debate and tweeking. Of course it would help if the party of No would get off their fat asses and try to contribute something to it even if it means they actually have to work hard instead of just being fucking contrary.

We've been "working on" health care reform for generations and if we don't get something in place, however flawed, we'll be waiting for the next time the Democrats have this much power. What did the Republicans do about health care in their 6 years of total control?

HSA (Health Savings Accounts)? You know..you save and pay for all of your expenses yourself and your company is off the hook! :D
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Mursilis
As I've said before, the GOP has no great plan to regain control of Congress, and likely won't be able to convince the public to give Congress back to the GOP on their own merits. Dems will however hand power back to the GOP through their overreaching. The Dems face three ugly options - 1) fail to fulfill their promises, chiefly on healthcare reform, 2) pass healthcare reform and raises taxes to pay for it, or 3) pass healthcare reform and explode the deficit further to pay for it. Any of the 3 is practically political suicide.
Actually I hope they fail with this draft of the Healthcare reform and go back to the drawing table. It's not something that should be worked out is such a short time, it needs a lot of debate and tweeking. Of course it would help if the party of No would get off their fat asses and try to contribute something to it even if it means they actually have to work hard instead of just being fucking contrary.

Who cares if they say no? Who cares what they say at all? They can't block a darn thing. They're a minority party for a reason. It's pointless for them to contribute a plan anyway, since it will never pass. Would you waste time writing a book if you knew the manuscript would just be thrown in the fire after you finished it? What's the point?

What's the point of electing them if they have no plan?

To stop the other guys' plan?

Did you used to be SuperTool? I think he vanished about the same time as you appeared.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Mursilis
As I've said before, the GOP has no great plan to regain control of Congress, and likely won't be able to convince the public to give Congress back to the GOP on their own merits. Dems will however hand power back to the GOP through their overreaching. The Dems face three ugly options - 1) fail to fulfill their promises, chiefly on healthcare reform, 2) pass healthcare reform and raises taxes to pay for it, or 3) pass healthcare reform and explode the deficit further to pay for it. Any of the 3 is practically political suicide.
Actually I hope they fail with this draft of the Healthcare reform and go back to the drawing table. It's not something that should be worked out is such a short time, it needs a lot of debate and tweeking. Of course it would help if the party of No would get off their fat asses and try to contribute something to it even if it means they actually have to work hard instead of just being fucking contrary.

Who cares if they say no? Who cares what they say at all? They can't block a darn thing. They're a minority party for a reason. It's pointless for them to contribute a plan anyway, since it will never pass. Would you waste time writing a book if you knew the manuscript would just be thrown in the fire after you finished it? What's the point?

The problem with the Republicans is that they have two plans for everything:
1. Oppose the Democrats.
2. Tax cuts for the wealthy.

Maybe if they came up with a comprehensive plan that wasn't based around that crap, then maybe someone would listen to them.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: SammyJr
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Mursilis
As I've said before, the GOP has no great plan to regain control of Congress, and likely won't be able to convince the public to give Congress back to the GOP on their own merits. Dems will however hand power back to the GOP through their overreaching. The Dems face three ugly options - 1) fail to fulfill their promises, chiefly on healthcare reform, 2) pass healthcare reform and raises taxes to pay for it, or 3) pass healthcare reform and explode the deficit further to pay for it. Any of the 3 is practically political suicide.
Actually I hope they fail with this draft of the Healthcare reform and go back to the drawing table. It's not something that should be worked out is such a short time, it needs a lot of debate and tweeking. Of course it would help if the party of No would get off their fat asses and try to contribute something to it even if it means they actually have to work hard instead of just being fucking contrary.

We've been "working on" health care reform for generations and if we don't get something in place, however flawed, we'll be waiting for the next time the Democrats have this much power. What did the Republicans do about health care in their 6 years of total control?

HSA (Health Savings Accounts)? You know..you save and pay for all of your expenses yourself and your company is off the hook! :D

LOL. Yeah, that joke. Those are worse than COBRA.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: SammyJr
The problem with the Republicans is that they have two plans for everything:
1. Oppose the Democrats.
2. Tax cuts for the wealthy.

Maybe if they came up with a comprehensive plan that wasn't based around that crap, then maybe someone would listen to them.

It's petty that you still whine about the GOP despite the fact the Dems have commanding majorities in both chambers of Congress and the White House. The voters have already decided the fate of the GOP, casting them into minority status for the foreseeable future, yet you still whine about them. You might as well be Phokus.