Lets talk about oil and the OPEC cartel.

[Zebo]

Exxons production cost is $3.50/barrel (it's in thier 10k). However OPEC DEMANDS to price go for +- $25/barrel. Now tell me how it's wrong to bust up this monopoly which has been grifting civilized nations for 25+ years? No free market on oil while there is on every single other commodity and oil is the most important to everyones economic stability.


Keep in mind whenever we open up our costly Texas and Oklahoma production, or build a billion dollar off shore vessel to extract the more costly oil, the OPEC cartel simply lowers the price to put us out of business and make us loose money, only to raise it later once they have no compitition. They have been diong this for 25 years.

 

[charrison]

I know the opec folks are sweating right now.

 

[Zebo]

Everyone loves to blame the oil companies for gas prices (hell about 30 states right now are investigationg them) when they have no choice what to buy it for

 

[Alistar7]

We watched them do this in the 70's and what was our response? Any alternative fuels, vehicles? This is exactly another reason a war for oil theory is not valid, at least not in the profit aspect. OPEC will meet friday and raise prices and will do so again as soon as the Iraqi oil hits the market.

 

[Ornery]

They're not under our control for antitrust and monopoly laws, but I'm certain we have a few commodities we could hold over their heads if we chose to. If they want to play hardball, we're up for the game.

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: Ornery
They're not under our control for antitrust and monopoly laws, but I'm certain we have a few commodities we could hold over their heads if we chose to. If they want to play hardball, we're up for the game.

What commodities would that be? Food? We're gonna starve their people if they don't lower the price of oil?

 

[Ornery]

They've got nothing BUT oil! We can pretty much name it. Don't get your panties in a wad. Nobody's threatened to pull the trigger... yet. They can play their game till we get fed up. They'll be cutting their own throats, though.

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: Ornery
They've got nothing BUT oil! We can pretty much name it. Don't get your panties in a wad. Nobody's threatened to pull the trigger... yet. They can play their game till we get fed up. They'll be cutting their own throats, though.

My 'panties' aren't in a wad. It was a simple question. I was trying to correlate what we have that is on the same level as their oil. The quick answer is food. If there is something else that you think we can withold that would have enough impact to influence their pricing of oil then post it. I think it's an interesting discussion.

 

[drewshin]

well, obviously if we didnt learn something from the 70s, there are companies that still make loads of money off oil, which have given them no reason to switch to anything else, or even conserve. it's not that opec has us by the balls or anything, refiners buy the crude, then make a healthy profit themselves when they sell it to us.

everyone is getting a piece of the pie, so why fight it?

opec's influence however is getting less and less as more reserves are found around the world. it's capitalism though, control price/supply to maximize profits.

it's like this with most "rare" kinds of things that have only a few participants... diamonds come to mind.

 

[Ornery]

They import EVERYTHING. They have nothing BUT oil. You name it, weapons, building materials, automobiles and parts... EVERYTHING. If they stick to us, including Europe, they're screwed. Food would be the final trump. I doubt it would come to that.

Before it even gets that far, the members can be pitted against each other. We're dealing with a bunch of snakes here. They can't even trust each other!

Edit: Hell, it won't take long at all:

Post-war Iraq may force OPEC's collapse

• ...a post-war Iraq was likely to demand to be allowed to export the same amount of oil as neighbouring Iran, like it did before it was kicked out of the cartel in 1990 for invading Kuwait.

 

[jackschmittusa]

We sell prime Alaska crude to Japan so we can import OPEC oil. Makes sense to me to bitch about OPEC. The oil companies here don't want things to change. If OPEC raises crude prices so that it costs the oil companies 2¢ more to make a gallon of gas, they charge 5¢ a gallon more and blame the price rise on OPEC. Why would they want to kill the "Golden Goose"? Ever notice how when you read that the price of crude goes up, the price of the gas (already paid for) in the ground at the gas station goes up the same day? But when the price of crude goes down, it seems to take a while for the lower price to filter through the distribution system. We get ripped off more by the oil barons here at home than by OPEC.

 

[Ornery]

• Yeah, $1.50 per gallon (including taxes). Whoop-di-sh!t
  

 

[LivinOnTheEdge]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
We watched them do this in the 70's and what was our response? Any alternative fuels, vehicles? This is exactly another reason a war for oil theory is not valid, at least not in the profit aspect. OPEC will meet friday and raise prices and will do so again as soon as the Iraqi oil hits the market.

Fascinating your powers of insight. Will you be attending the OPEC meeting to direct them on their course of action?

 

[LivinOnTheEdge]

Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Exxons production cost is $3.50/barrel (it's in thier 10k). However OPEC DEMANDS to price go for +- $25/barrel. Now tell me how it's wrong to bust up this monopoly which has been grifting civilized nations for 25+ years? No free market on oil while there is on every single other commodity and oil is the most important to everyones economic stability.


Keep in mind whenever we open up our costly Texas and Oklahoma production, or build a billion dollar off shore vessel to extract the more costly oil, the OPEC cartel simply lowers the price to put us out of business and make us loose money, only to raise it later once they have no compitition. They have been diong this for 25 years.

Well, we could ban SUV's, switch to wind and solar power, break the bond between H20 and have a cheap hydrogen economy, and tell the arabs to shove it.

 

[oLLie]

Originally posted by: Ornery

• Yeah, $1.50 per gallon (including taxes). Whoop-di-sh!t
  

Huh? In CA it's 2.06 9/10

Originally posted by: LivinOnTheEdge
Well, we could ban SUV's, switch to wind and solar power, break the bond between H20 and have a cheap hydrogen economy, and tell the arabs to shove it.

Why are you mocking Alistar7 in your other post? Anyone that promotes "banning" SUVs as a solution to anything isn't a genius themselves.

 

[ConclamoLudus]

Technology will catch up and soon enough we'll all be piloting flying gravity-magnetic-hydrogen-powered-no emission SUV's. At least I hope so.

 

[JZilla]

Originally posted by: ConclamoLudus
Technology will catch up and soon enough we'll all be piloting flying gravity-magnetic-hydrogen-powered-no emission SUV's. At least I hope so.

Agreed. But that would not be good for the oil companies and opec, so they will sure put up a fight. I once saw a show that claimed we would be driving alt. fuel vehicles today, if it was not for the oil mafia.

 

[ConclamoLudus]

Originally posted by: JZilla

Originally posted by: ConclamoLudus
Technology will catch up and soon enough we'll all be piloting flying gravity-magnetic-hydrogen-powered-no emission SUV's. At least I hope so.

Agreed. But that would not be good for the oil companies and opec, so they will sure put up a fight. I once saw a show that claimed we would be driving alt. fuel vehicles today, if it was not for the oil mafia.

They've got a lot of pull. People are often cynical about Bush's state-of-the-union address in which he threw something in about hydrogen cars. I generally agree with quite a bit of his policies, but when it comes to fossil fuels, I'm ready to see them go. What a lot of people don't see about Bush's speech is that if a Republican President is dropping it in speeches, its at least a step forward, it may be a small one even if he doesn't follow through, but it means there's going to be less and less political pressure to prevent alt. fuels. :::just a thought:::

It'll be a slow change, but I think the slowest part of the change is over. The cat is at least out of the bag and there are plenty of people that want the technology to be there, liberal and conservative.

 

[JZilla]

Well I am not an american - but like everyone else in the world, I have a small american inside me waiting to break free - but here in Europe we do hear alot about fuel cells and other fuels that are being researched. In Holland (Ehh, I mean the Netherlands) and Sweden gas cars are not that uncommon and generally speaking diesel is pretty common over here, although that isn't a clean fuel to be using, but still better than gasoline. Electrical cars have also been used here in small numbers, but they are pratically dead.

But it will take a giant invesment in society, to switch from gasoline to fuel cell technology.

Imagine ten years from now, people driving "clean" cars to work, It will be great.

 

[sandorski]

OPEC doesn't set the price of oil, they set their rate of production lowering/raising supply, which in turn sets the price.

Using oil for fuel is such a waste of a resource that will be increasingly in demand for other products in the future. It's time to quit burning oil like it's everyones right to do so.

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: JZilla
Well I am not an american - but like everyone else in the world, I have a small american inside me waiting to break free - but here in Europe we do hear alot about fuel cells and other fuels that are being researched. In Holland (Ehh, I mean the Netherlands) and Sweden gas cars are not that uncommon and generally speaking diesel is pretty common over here, although that isn't a clean fuel to be using, but still better than gasoline. Electrical cars have also been used here in small numbers, but they are pratically dead.

But it will take a giant invesment in society, to switch from gasoline to fuel cell technology.

Imagine ten years from now, people driving "clean" cars to work, It will be great.

Gas cars are pretty uncommon in Sweden, how many are there in all of Sweden? 100? even if it's 1000 it's still uncommon...

Diesel cars are very common though...

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: sandorski
OPEC doesn't set the price of oil, they set their rate of production lowering/raising supply, which in turn sets the price.

Using oil for fuel is such a waste of a resource that will be increasingly in demand for other products in the future. It's time to quit burning oil like it's everyones right to do so.

So what you are saying is OPEC sets oil prices.


So what should we be using for energy if not oil?

 

[JZilla]

SnapIt, it's not like everyone drives a gas car. I think I might have used the term common a bit loosely, I apologize. There are though many cabs in Malmo using bi-fuel (gasoline and gas) and many of the busses (public transport) are also gas driven.

I guess you must be swedish...

 

[KMurphy]

I get daily news updates off the NewsEDGE/LAN about everything related to the oil and petrochemical industry. The articles are all copyrighted by Reuters so I can't post them here. A couple of weeks ago, there was a very good article about why we really can't develop alternatives to oil yet. OPEC will always lower the cost of oil to where it's the cheapest form of energy (excluding coal). OPEC has gotten just as dependant on money as the oil consumers have on cheap oil, so they won't risk ruining the current business situation. You also have quota busters who really aren't scared to defy OPEC. I'll dig up that article tomorrow at work and post the authors name.

Oil will continue to be cheap until it either runs out, or is regulated into a more costly solution. The later option is really scary since the newly developing countries don't have to deal with this overhead. That is one reason (cost of labor is also a big one) so many manufacturing jobs are going to newly industrialized countries and why it is a good thing Kyoto didn't pass here.

If you people want job security in the future, go into an industry that can't be shipped overseas; food, retail, energy, medical treatment, etc. Manufacturing is becoming less of our economy every day which makes us more dependant on other countries than ever.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: KMurphy
I get daily news updates off the NewsEDGE/LAN about everything related to the oil and petrochemical industry. The articles are all copyrighted by Reuters so I can't post them here. A couple of weeks ago, there was a very good article about why we really can't develop alternatives to oil yet. OPEC will always lower the cost of oil to where it's the cheapest form of energy (excluding coal). OPEC has gotten just as dependant on money as the oil consumers have on cheap oil, so they won't risk ruining the current business situation. You also have quota busters who really aren't scared to defy OPEC. I'll dig up that article tomorrow at work and post the authors name.

Oil will continue to be cheap until it either runs out, or is regulated into a more costly solution. The later option is really scary since the newly developing countries don't have to deal with this overhead. That is one reason (cost of labor is also a big one) so many manufacturing jobs are going to newly industrialized countries and why it is a good thing Kyoto didn't pass here.

If you people want job security in the future, go into an industry that can't be shipped overseas; food, retail, energy, medical treatment, etc. Manufacturing is becoming less of our economy every day which makes us more dependant on other countries than ever.

Good to get back to a serious discussion KM, I've been hearing for 25 years electrics are just around the corner, but when in the ME you must cap the wells or else they'll blow, it's very hard to compete against that almost free resourse. . This cost of production is thing everyone forgets. In most of the ME the oil is begging to come out while the rest of the world has to pump it out AND spend more on capital equipment to start the job. Therefore they can lower the price anytime an alternative or competeing location raises it's ugly head. Sure we hear about drilling in alaska as a possibility, but the only thing which makes it viable is the currently infated oil price OPEC has manipulated. Also, This is why huge companies are unwilling to do research in non-hydrocarbon alternatives such as LiSO2 batteries etc. As soon as they start the infrastucture and expenditure of capital equipment for the alternative, which would be huge for the auto industry, the cartel will sell oil at $8/bbl, still making $5/bbl profit and burry that investment. A alternative fuel can never compete with free oil.

As far as running out?!!? Since the 1910's it's always been we only have another 20 years. And the ME is still having to cap thier wells today. More like 500 years just in the ME is what you'll see from serious geological journals.

So we are left with, oil, Natural Gas (which the ME also has the most), or hydrogen fuel cells which also is most cost effective to use oil as the precursor to power our economy. Some like hydrolysis of water for hydrogen, but it costs more and uses more energy than the hydrogen you would yield ...(endothermic).

I hope you can see why Bush or any other president is acting in our intrest, breaking the back of OPEC is and added bouns of this campaign