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Let's put this 20/20 hindsight talking point to rest

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Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Very few(percentage wise) were against the war before we went. The most vocal now are those that have changed or stayed quiet before. I'd say that supports the idea that many are using hindsight - not principled opposition.
kerry and edwards are the biggest examples of those trying to complain about the war in hindsight. This "I would have"...or whatever "better" BS they spout is nothing but hindsight.

But hey, you are going to believe whatever you wish if it feeds your RBH.

CsG
Actually very many (percentage wise) were against the war and a significant number were undecided before the war. It was the MARCH to war perpetrated by the Bush Junta and their media lackeys that gradually shifted the undecideds. Once it became abundantly clear that Bush was going to pick a fight . . . regardless of the circumstances . . . a significant number of people shifted to supporting the troops (if not the actual war).

Sadly, GOPies have used these complex social phenomena to claim support for the war that NEVER really existed. In the aftermath, only the delusional (albeit a substantial number) are sticking to the war as "justified". Yet these very people further substantiate our arguments that no degree of evidence could have precluded war b/c the decision had been made months if not years in advance.
 
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Actually very many (percentage wise) were against the war and a significant number were undecided before the war. It was the MARCH to war perpetrated by the Bush Junta and their media lackeys that gradually shifted the undecideds. Once it became abundantly clear that Bush was going to pick a fight . . . regardless of the circumstances . . . a significant number of people shifted to supporting the troops (if not the actual war).

Yup, I had forgotten that. But now I remember thinking how lame people were changing their minds just because the President made it clear he was going to warmonger no matter what.
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Actually very many (percentage wise) were against the war and a significant number were undecided before the war. It was the MARCH to war perpetrated by the Bush Junta and their media lackeys that gradually shifted the undecideds. Once it became abundantly clear that Bush was going to pick a fight . . . regardless of the circumstances . . . a significant number of people shifted to supporting the troops (if not the actual war).

Yup, I had forgotten that. But now I remember thinking how lame people were changing their minds just because the President made it clear he was going to warmonger no matter what.

Yeah, it's about as lame as them changing it back now due to hindsight and political games.
Like I said - few were against it and even fewer were vocally against it. Now again, kerry and edwards are the most visible examples of such "hindsight" people.

CsG
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
EDIT: For the record I'm not calling out Pliablemoose. I'm using his discussion with arsbanned as an example. The reason I've posted this is because I keep hearing it in various threads from various people and I think it's bogus. I thought the "ANOTHER" and "example" would make that clear but I guess I was wrong.

It doesn't matter - you called him out and like the other thread that got locked, it's my opinion that this one should be also. The MODs made it clear that if you have an issue with what is being said- you should address it in that thread.
*shrug*

CsG
 
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I stand by my statement.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Hindsight===== foresight. Here let me explain.


DIANE SAWYER: Was the war in Iraq worth it?

JOHN KERRY: We should not have gone to war knowing the information that we know today.

DS: So it was not worth it.

JK: We should not ? it depends on the outcome ultimately ?
 
Ozoned:

Yeah, Kerry really sucks on the war issue. He's not been as consistent and clear as I'd like and I saw a quote from some guy who said: "Why would you vote for a guy who believed George Bush?" 🙂

He's better than Bush, IMHO.

-Robert
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Actually very many (percentage wise) were against the war and a significant number were undecided before the war. It was the MARCH to war perpetrated by the Bush Junta and their media lackeys that gradually shifted the undecideds. Once it became abundantly clear that Bush was going to pick a fight . . . regardless of the circumstances . . . a significant number of people shifted to supporting the troops (if not the actual war).

Yup, I had forgotten that. But now I remember thinking how lame people were changing their minds just because the President made it clear he was going to warmonger no matter what.

Yeah, it's about as lame as them changing it back now due to hindsight and political games.
Like I said - few were against it and even fewer were vocally against it. Now again, kerry and edwards are the most visible examples of such "hindsight" people.

CsG
Dude . . . that's such BS. This war and the people that imposed it upon the world are the lame ones. Kerry and Edwards deserve a rap or two on the knuckles for empowering the Knucklehead and Chief to play "warrior". Regardless, you repeat the same mantra that I already discredited. The notion that "few" people were against this war (vocally or reserved) is pure fallacy. The truth is that in public and private circles anyone opposed to the war was painted with an unflattering broad brush. IMHO, yeah Kerry/Edwards rolled over like day old roadkill. But I consider that a misdemeanor compared to the FELONIOUS Bush agenda.
 
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Actually very many (percentage wise) were against the war and a significant number were undecided before the war. It was the MARCH to war perpetrated by the Bush Junta and their media lackeys that gradually shifted the undecideds. Once it became abundantly clear that Bush was going to pick a fight . . . regardless of the circumstances . . . a significant number of people shifted to supporting the troops (if not the actual war).

Yup, I had forgotten that. But now I remember thinking how lame people were changing their minds just because the President made it clear he was going to warmonger no matter what.

Yeah, it's about as lame as them changing it back now due to hindsight and political games.
Like I said - few were against it and even fewer were vocally against it. Now again, kerry and edwards are the most visible examples of such "hindsight" people.

CsG
Dude . . . that's such BS. This war and the people that imposed it upon the world are the lame ones. Kerry and Edwards deserve a rap or two on the knuckles for empowering the Knucklehead and Chief to play "warrior". Regardless, you repeat the same mantra that I already discredited. The notion that "few" people were against this war (vocally or reserved) is pure fallacy. The truth is that in public and private circles anyone opposed to the war was painted with an unflattering broad brush. IMHO, yeah Kerry/Edwards rolled over like day old roadkill. But I consider that a misdemeanor compared to the FELONIOUS Bush agenda.

Wrong. You disproved nothing. Clearly you didn't read what I said. It is true that those against it were in the vast minority - yet you try to refute that by claiming that support only increased later. That doesn't address the few who were against it - nor does it address the fact that even fewer were vocally against it.

Keep trying to play apologist for the hindsighters though.🙂

CsG
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
At the beginning of this war, there was not a single person in this forum or elsewhere who could claim with absolute, 100% certainty that Saddam had no WMDs.
But how many claimed with absolute, 100% cetainty that he did? I mean other than this administration.

 
CAD, who is this minority you are referring to? The world, the USA, AT? I ask simply because I remember the Free Press published a poll (around 1/03 I believe) that said only about 1/3 of the US population wanted this war with no UN approval.

Can someone say "I would have done XXX better" without simply taking advantage of hindsight?
 
Well, put me on that list of those opposed to the war before it began. I argued here that:

Sadaam was efectively contained by no-fly zones, sanctions, and weapons inspectors.

And while not beeing privy to government intel, it seemed obvious that the mantra of "we know he has them and we know where" was pure BS. As soon as the inspectors had unfettered access GWB could have told them where to look and for what. Even a dim bulb would have seen the value in displaying actual weapons to the world to cement his case. Instead, as soon as they had all the access they needed, GWB announced a war, ending their search. It seemed quite clear that his knowledge of WMD was not a sure thing.

I also questioned the "imminent threat" angle as well. The very use of the drone program in Iraq as an example indicated that they were grasping at straws to make the case.

The first Gulf War brought several Arab nations in with us because they saw a threat. The second time around, it did not appear that saw any threat. It would seem that detecting and countering any threat from Iraq would be of great national interest to these countries. They had a great pool of Arab personel who could operate in Iraq to gather information while we did not. Yet, they did not seem to share our concern.

The "greeted as liberators" and "flowers in the streets" lines seemed to be a fairy tale to me in light of previously demonstrated attitudes about the U.S. in the M.E..

I still feel that a policy of pre-emptive war (as opposed to a pre-emptive strike on a known target) is a terrible idea. It paints us as less moral, law abiding, and predictable than ever before. When other countries follow our example, it will come back to bite us on the ass.

So, no, I didn't have any special intel. I am not an expert on the M.E.. But I took the available imformation, ran it through a common sense filter, and reached the above conclusions before the war. And I expressed those views here and elsewhere at the time.
 
Originally posted by: Gaard
CAD, who is this minority you are referring to? The world, the USA, AT? I ask simply because I remember the Free Press published a poll (around 1/03 I believe) that said only about 1/3 of the US population wanted this war with no UN approval.

Can someone say "I would have done XXX better" without simply taking advantage of hindsight?

No, a person who says such a thing is clearly using hindsight to argue -but the problem for kerry is that he at one point was defending himself against the attacks he is now spewing at the President.

Americans - as Americans are the only ones who's opinions count regarding how we use our military.
Again trying to claim only a third supported action without UN approval doesn't refute the point that the minority of people were against the war - let alone vocal about it. If you want to play the semantics games with the UN(which BTW has ZERO say in how we use our troops) then how exactly does your poll hold up since there was no backing by the UN yet people supported the action? Do you really think that your little poll refutes the fact that a minority of people were against the war - let alone "vocal" about it?
Oh, and don't forget that we did infact have allies aboard - just not the bribed Euros and Russians.🙂

Where was all this "principled" opposition before the war? That's right...it wasn't there by the now vocal Bush haters. It's a clear cut case of hindsight and it's exemplified by the likes of kerry and edwards.

But anyway, it's good to see info took out his quoting and such from the OP - wouldn't want there to be any confusion as to wether it's allowed - especially after the earlier situation.🙂 :beer:

CsG
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

But anyway, it's good to see info took out his quoting and such from the OP - wouldn't want there to be any confusion as to wether it's allowed - especially after the earlier situation.🙂 :beer:

CsG

Yeah sorry. I apologize for the problems. Believe it or not it was unintentional. Didn't mean to target anyone in particular.
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

But anyway, it's good to see info took out his quoting and such from the OP - wouldn't want there to be any confusion as to wether it's allowed - especially after the earlier situation.🙂 :beer:

CsG

Yeah sorry. I apologize for the problems. Believe it or not it was unintentional. Didn't mean to target anyone in particular.

Well, the problem comes in when intentions can't be judged. It's clear by the MODs decision earlier today that these sorts of things weren't allowed so it's only fitting that all similar things(despite one's intentions) should be treated the same way. Fortunately for you and your thread, you've been given a pass due to your edit.🙂

CsG
 
Well I am referring to someone in particular. It's a clear fallacy that a significant percentage were NOT against the war. As for the sheep and lemmings that shift with the news . . . I don't really care about them. More importantly the decisionmakers (those that whisper in GWB's ear) were clearly in the minority of "war under any circumstances".

The only reason why 1/3 of Americans supported war without UN approval was the BS intelligence cited daily by the Bush Follies roadshow. Much of the "knowledge" possessed by these people was challenged . . . DAILY. The problem was that "simple lies, obfuscations, and half-truths" were parroted by the media while more substantitive information/analysis to the contrary was only found in places like the NewsHour (with a little bump from NPR). Anyone with more than two working neurons could see this was NOT a "slam dunk". Then again we were also told there was MORE information that couldn't be divulged as of yet . . . yet we are still waiting for MORE information. Instead we've received a littany of excuses and backtracking. A few are even so bold to claim, "hindsight is 20/20."

Well my answer is that foresight of poor intelligence/policy on Iraq and the potential for bad outcomes was abundantly obvious for anyone that didn't have glaucoma, cataracts, retinoblastoma, detached retina, macular degeneration, and pilocytic astrocytoma pushing on the optic chiasma. In essence, only the blind (or dumb) could fail to appreciate Iraq.
 
Originally posted by: Gaard
Poll: Majority of Americans oppose unilateral action against Iraq

A robust majority of Americans - 83 percent - would support going to war if the United Nations backed the action and it was carried out by a multinational coalition. But without U.N. approval and allies, only about a third of the public would support a war with Iraq.
So much for, "Very few ... were against the war before we went." Does this mean the 20/20 Hindsight diversion is dead?

BTW, where did all the Bush supporters go? They left Cad twisting in the wind.
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Way to not try to comprehend my post.:roll:
The world is not part of this equation. They do not control our gov't decisions to use force.
Yes, a few(percentage wise) were against it - as shown by polling data before the war. Then, there were even less of that same percentage were actually vocally against it.

Now we have blowhards from the left claiming that they knew all along or whatever they wish. Well, most of it is BS, because they now have hindsight to try to bolster their claims.
I never claimed "everyone was using 20/20" hindsight - but I will say that most of the now anti-war people are - especially those in this forum. Continually jumping from excuse to excuse that the war was bad showcases this hindsight syndrome. The world's intelligence agencies thought he had WMD....but I suppose you all knew better...:roll: Again, yes there were some naysayers but there are always naysayers. Heck some people didn't support going into Afghanistan too.

Again, think what you wish but I find it absolutely hilarious that the left is now trying to claim they were against everything from the start. It's a ridiculous claim. Most of the RBH crowd was not vocally against the war - and kerry and edwards actually supported action against Saddam. They are the classic examples of how the left has "nuanced" their argument using hindsight. Do we need to bring up the quotes again? Hmmm...

CsG
You're simply talking out your a$$ again, Cad. It's merely a transparent attempt to discount the anti-war sentiment as "hindsight" much as you discount those who genuinely have a problem with the administration as manifesting "RBH."

Your analogy is as deeply flawed as those on the left accusing you of "drinking the Kool-Aid." It's a neat diversion and a great way to dismiss out of hand the real sentiment; however everyone recognizes it for what it really is: Your little anecdotal BS masquerading as facts.
 
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Dang I just read ANOTHER example of this hindsight bleat and it's getting old.

The same conservatives that were blabbering about the protestors now claim nobody could have predicted this would be a disaster. Huh? Well people did. I did. It's not 20/20 hindsight. It was foresight and using commonly known facts and history to come to the conclusion Iraq would be a bad idea.

:roll:
 
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Way to not try to comprehend my post.:roll:
The world is not part of this equation. They do not control our gov't decisions to use force.
Yes, a few(percentage wise) were against it - as shown by polling data before the war. Then, there were even less of that same percentage were actually vocally against it.

Now we have blowhards from the left claiming that they knew all along or whatever they wish. Well, most of it is BS, because they now have hindsight to try to bolster their claims.
I never claimed "everyone was using 20/20" hindsight - but I will say that most of the now anti-war people are - especially those in this forum. Continually jumping from excuse to excuse that the war was bad showcases this hindsight syndrome. The world's intelligence agencies thought he had WMD....but I suppose you all knew better...:roll: Again, yes there were some naysayers but there are always naysayers. Heck some people didn't support going into Afghanistan too.

Again, think what you wish but I find it absolutely hilarious that the left is now trying to claim they were against everything from the start. It's a ridiculous claim. Most of the RBH crowd was not vocally against the war - and kerry and edwards actually supported action against Saddam. They are the classic examples of how the left has "nuanced" their argument using hindsight. Do we need to bring up the quotes again? Hmmm...

CsG
You're simply talking out your a$$ again, Cad. It's merely a transparent attempt to discount the anti-war sentiment as "hindsight" much as you discount those who genuinely have a problem with the administration as manifesting "RBH."

Your analogy is as deeply flawed as those on the left accusing you of "drinking the Kool-Aid." It's a neat diversion and a great way to dismiss out of hand the real sentiment; however everyone recognizes it for what it really is: Your little anecdotal BS masquerading as facts.

Every dire prediction, from both the vast majority of Americans oppossed to invading Iraq to the Pentagon Chiefs who also oppossed it, has come to pass.

Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11, NO WMD (which Hans Blix TOLD Bush before Bush forced him to leave Iraq and we now know is true from the reports of David "we were all wrong" Kay and Duelfer) and couldn't project a threat against its neighbors no less the USA. Bush was told time and again that Iraq would be a quagmire, that invading Iraq would play into the hands of terrorists worldwide, that the 'war on terror' would be damaged by wasting our resources in Iraq but he ignored all the warnings and went ahead with his myopic, wrongheaded, idiotic plan anyway.

That anyone would now attempt to characterize this as hindsight now is simply pathetic.

Read the Duelfer report or Kay's statements for God's sake. Suggesting now, in the face of all the facts, that people are excercising hindsight is as moronic as the Bush administration's misadventure in Iraq.

Little wonder. The people making the claim are the same people that supported Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith and the rest of the PNAC crowd in the first place.

Pathetic.

 
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Way to not try to comprehend my post.:roll:
The world is not part of this equation. They do not control our gov't decisions to use force.
Yes, a few(percentage wise) were against it - as shown by polling data before the war. Then, there were even less of that same percentage were actually vocally against it.

Now we have blowhards from the left claiming that they knew all along or whatever they wish. Well, most of it is BS, because they now have hindsight to try to bolster their claims.
I never claimed "everyone was using 20/20" hindsight - but I will say that most of the now anti-war people are - especially those in this forum. Continually jumping from excuse to excuse that the war was bad showcases this hindsight syndrome. The world's intelligence agencies thought he had WMD....but I suppose you all knew better...:roll: Again, yes there were some naysayers but there are always naysayers. Heck some people didn't support going into Afghanistan too.

Again, think what you wish but I find it absolutely hilarious that the left is now trying to claim they were against everything from the start. It's a ridiculous claim. Most of the RBH crowd was not vocally against the war - and kerry and edwards actually supported action against Saddam. They are the classic examples of how the left has "nuanced" their argument using hindsight. Do we need to bring up the quotes again? Hmmm...

CsG
You're simply talking out your a$$ again, Cad. It's merely a transparent attempt to discount the anti-war sentiment as "hindsight" much as you discount those who genuinely have a problem with the administration as manifesting "RBH."

Your analogy is as deeply flawed as those on the left accusing you of "drinking the Kool-Aid." It's a neat diversion and a great way to dismiss out of hand the real sentiment; however everyone recognizes it for what it really is: Your little anecdotal BS masquerading as facts.

No, there are some who have principled opposition to the war. I don't discount those people. I know they exist, but the issue here are those who have now become anti-this-war because they want to win an election or gain their power back.. They are taking hindsight and trying to make claims that just weren't being made by them before the war.
If someone was anti-war before - I have no problems with that - they can have their own opinion. Where were the rest of you all to back up the principled anti-war people before the war? Now that the media and john kerry(and the other primary candidates) need something to beat Bush on - they look back and try to pick apart the war and such in their quest to unseat him. It's cute and all, but it's transparent monday morning quarterbacking. He would have done it "better"? Puhleeze. He and edwards voted to authorize the use of force - now they have to find a way to cover it up and their supports are eating it up.
Pathetic.

CsG
 
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: element
I thought Iraq would be a mess back then too. Boy was I wrong.
I see. So you thought it wouldn't be perfect, so now that it's not you are disappointed?

no I thought we should bomb them back to the stone age but not send troops in harms way. I posted exactly that back then once though I don't remember the date.
 
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