Let's play "what if...."

[BenSkywalker]

90% of smartphone buyers hardly care about specs like processor and RAM, or even GPU.

That sounds very close to 'screw over the ignorant customer whenever you can'. In the real world, a cell phone is made up of components. These components have a cost. When you charge significantly more for significantly less expensive components what would you call it? In no way am I saying its' bad business, quite the contrary, but that doesn't change what it is.

Bottom line the iPhone is the best selling smartphone phone of all time. Its not even close. If so many people were getting screwed over this wouldn't be true.

Ford F series pickup is the best selling vehicle of all time. You think that means customers aren't getting screwed over when they buy them?

For the fifth time running, iPhone users are the most satisfied customers.

Bernie Madoff's customers were extremely satisfied too.

If you tow the typical line, I would guess your next comment would be that all iPhone users are idiots and don't know that they are getting screwed.

People who bought the iPhone4 at launch were paying a little too much, but nothing outrageous. People who buy an iPhone4 *today* are most certainly getting screwed. If the iPhone 5 were to come out tomorrow, and launch at the exact same price point as the iPhone4 with significantly better specs, would that still not prove to you my point?

 

[alent1234]

i was helping someone buy an android phone the last few months and the prices weren't that cheap either. $99 or more for a mytouch 4G, verizon's prices are crazy expensive most times even for older phones.

$149 for a droid incredible 2? i paid $20 for my Inspire 4G at Costco which is almost the exact same hardware

 

[Doboji]

That sounds very close to 'screw over the ignorant customer whenever you can'. In the real world, a cell phone is made up of components. These components have a cost. When you charge significantly more for significantly less expensive components what would you call it? In no way am I saying its' bad business, quite the contrary, but that doesn't change what it is.



Ford F series pickup is the best selling vehicle of all time. You think that means customers aren't getting screwed over when they buy them?



Bernie Madoff's customers were extremely satisfied too.



People who bought the iPhone4 at launch were paying a little too much, but nothing outrageous. People who buy an iPhone4 *today* are most certainly getting screwed. If the iPhone 5 were to come out tomorrow, and launch at the exact same price point as the iPhone4 with significantly better specs, would that still not prove to you my point?

You know... I'm a huge Android fan... but you're full of shit.

In the real world pricing of a device is based on what people are willing to pay for it... And the value of each internal components only determines a small fraction of the costs associated with bringing a device to market. Apple is clearly not "ripping" off customers with their products... the customers LOVE their Apple products, they feel they're worth every penny and that is the ONLY measure of value.

I understand your point about how consumers buying the iPhone 4 today would be best served to wait for the iPhone 5 at this point... but you can't seriously expect Apple to drop prices on a product that is still flying off shelves just to be nice? That makes no sense whatsoever. Noone is forcing anyone to buy an iPhone at the current price...

Warning for mild personal attack
Attack the post, not the poster, Doboji
-Moderator PM

 

[smartpatrol]

That sounds very close to 'screw over the ignorant customer whenever you can'. In the real world, a cell phone is made up of components. These components have a cost. When you charge significantly more for significantly less expensive components what would you call it? In no way am I saying its' bad business, quite the contrary, but that doesn't change what it is.

This is so full of crap I don't know where to begin.

iPhone 4 is made out of very high-quality components. The entire body of the phone is metal and Gorilla Glass. The display is probably the best of any smartphone. Just about every other smartphone feels like a cheap, plastic-y piece of junk next to it.

Are HTC/Motorola/Samsung "screwing their ignorant customers" by building phones out of plastic, so they can save a couple dollars per unit? Are they screwing customers by selling a phone with pathetic battery life compared to iPhone/Blackberry? Are they screwing customers by still releasing phones with Android 2.1, and loading their phones full of bloatware?

What a joke. I would feel truly screwed if I were talked into getting an Android smartphone with the latest OMG dual-core processor, only to find that it feels like a cheap, slow piece of junk next to a friend's iPhone.

Apparently consumers agree, because iOS dominates Android in customer satisfaction ratings (and even WP7 leads it by a healthy margin, despite being a relatively immature OS). And Apple is screwing customers so hard that 46% of future smartphone buyers want an iPhone vs. 32% for Android.

Face it: Android isn't just some "geek secret" anymore. Android phones are ubiquitous. Consumers know what Android is, yet many of them see iPhone as a superior product. Just because you have a different opinion, it doesn't mean that iPhone buyers are getting screwed or somehow making the wrong choice.

Sources:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/...ind-ios-in-customer-satisfaction-survey/13728
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-20080319-37/survey-iphone-leads-android-among-new-buyers/

 

[dguy6789]

Just going to point out that there were Android phones that were faster than the iPhone 4 in nearly every performance metric(Opening apps, rendering web pages, javascript performance, etc..) before the iPhone 4 even launched. Smooth transition animations and actual speed(load time, actual application performance) are not the same thing. Android is largely smooth in modern handsets with the most up to date software nowadays anyway.

Note: It's incredibly easy to accidentally leave CPU consuming applications running(An admitted flaw of Android) that will slow things down and be unaware of it. A lot of people do this, even reviewers. I would be willing to wager that possibly as much as half of all reviewers do not know the difference between putting an application to sleep and minimizing it but having it run full on in the background in Android.

Android is more or less the Windows of the smartphone world. When you give consumers a huge amount of control over their OS and the ability to install anything they want, you run the risk of uninformed consumers installing things they shouldn't and changing settings they shouldn't. This is why Windows(and Android) has a reputation for being prone to crashing and thus less than flawless consumer satisfaction. It's now a flaw in the software, it's just a natural result when you give the end user that much control.

 

[Aikouka]

Just going to point out that there were Android phones that were faster than the iPhone 4 in nearly every performance metric(Opening apps, rendering web pages, javascript performance, etc..) before the iPhone 4 even launched. Smooth transition animations and actual speed(load time, actual application performance) are not the same thing. Android is largely smooth in modern handsets with the most up to date software nowadays anyway.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/the-iphone-4-review/12

I think your remark is somewhat flawed. You're correct that Android's Froyo updates really helped in browser performance, but looking at that review, the only loss it suffered (if any) was to the Nexus One running 2.2. But then again, we're playing to one of Android's biggest cons and that's the slow updates from OEMs. How long did it take the other phones in those benchmarks to finally get 2.2?

It's also probably worth admitting that there are no GPU benchmarks on that page and I don't see any in the review. I'll be frank and say that the iPhone 4 always performs poorly in GPU tests given the high resolution and the same GPU as the 3GS (PowerVR SGX 535). It would probably be beaten in every test by the competitor's listed.

 

[smartpatrol]

Just going to point out that there were Android phones that were faster than the iPhone 4 in nearly every performance metric(Opening apps, rendering web pages, javascript performance, etc..) before the iPhone 4 even launched. Smooth transition animations and actual speed(load time, actual application performance) are not the same thing. Android is largely smooth in modern handsets with the most up to date software nowadays anyway.

I disagree. Why should things like UI responsiveness, smoothness of scrolling/zooming, consistent frame rate, etc. not be considered "actual speed"? At any rate, those are the sort of things the average user notices. And, those are the things you notice EVERY time you use the device, not just when you're running synthetic benchmarks or doing something CPU intensive.

Frankly, those are areas where iOS blows Android away. Call it "snappiness". Newer Android devices are getting better, but I still haven't seen one that feels as snappy as iOS or WP7. IMO that goes a long way towards making iOS feel like a "premium" experience.

 

[BeauJangles]

I disagree. Why should things like UI responsiveness, smoothness of scrolling/zooming, consistent frame rate, etc. not be considered "actual speed"? At any rate, those are the sort of things the average user notices. And, those are the things you notice EVERY time you use the device, not just when you're running synthetic benchmarks or doing something CPU intensive.

Frankly, those are areas where iOS blows Android away. Call it "snappiness". Newer Android devices are getting better, but I still haven't seen one that feels as snappy as iOS or WP7. IMO that goes a long way towards making iOS feel like a "premium" experience.

There are lots of phones out there that run Android on hardware that is just terrible. That being said, I really like the responsiveness of HTC devices and I feel like my Evo Shift is as smooth as my friend's iPhone 4. I dunno whether that's my own confirmation bias or what though

 

[Pliablemoose]

People know what Android is, and they are going to notice if their neat Droid is pulled off the market.

Your congressman will look at all the current issues re: Google, and realize they can't step in and not look like a tool.

This will take some time to play out, BBC will likely have QNX phones out by then, and WebOS will likely have been licensed out as well.

 

[Doboji]

I disagree. Why should things like UI responsiveness, smoothness of scrolling/zooming, consistent frame rate, etc. not be considered "actual speed"? At any rate, those are the sort of things the average user notices. And, those are the things you notice EVERY time you use the device, not just when you're running synthetic benchmarks or doing something CPU intensive.

Frankly, those are areas where iOS blows Android away. Call it "snappiness". Newer Android devices are getting better, but I still haven't seen one that feels as snappy as iOS or WP7. IMO that goes a long way towards making iOS feel like a "premium" experience.

Try the Galaxy S II... there is absolutely NO LAG whatsoever, and I've been using the device alongside my iPad 2 for over a month now. The SII actually launches menus and apps faster than my iPad 2 by quite a bit. I understand the Evo 3D and the HTC Sensation have a similar level of performance.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Frankly, those are areas where iOS blows Android away.

Next year with quad-core Android phones that advantage will go away with shear power (the SGS2 is almost there today). The app store advantage will be decrease by then as well (maybe not for tablets) so iOS will get real competition in that time frame.

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

The app store advantage will be decrease by then as well (maybe not for tablets) so iOS will get real competition in that time frame.

You're saying that the Android app store is not competitive to the Apple app store?

 

[Mopetar]

Next year with quad-core Android phones that advantage will go away with shear power (the SGS2 is almost there today).

More computational power might solve a number of problems, but it will also drain the battery faster. Improving code efficiency is generally always preferable unless its impossible to reduce the algorithmic complexity of the program any further.

On another note, phones probably won't need more than two cores. WebOS has shown that while true multitasking is nice, the associated battery drain isn't always worth it. Without a serious amount of multitasking or any other kind of power apps, two cores will be sufficient. Especially considering that Cortex-A15 will bring architecture improvements; furthermore, the next generation of SoCs will probably be fabricated on 28nm processes bringing additional benefits. Having cores that can clock higher and get more work done should be enough to drive smart phone performance for another few years.

 

[WelshBloke]

You're saying that the Android app store is not competitive to the Apple app store?

Well they aren't competitive with each other.

No one with an Android phone is going to use the Apple store and likewise the other way round.

 

[akugami]

Is English not your first language? I'll have to assume it isn't for you to post something that ignorant. I don't attribute quotes to people, go ahead and check. Arguing with a person is a very stupid thing to do. I debate points.

Your points are all opinion based and not facts. You say you argue points but when someone brings up points you don't agree with, all you've done is ignore them. So basically you feel your opinions are better and more important than anyone else's opinions. And because you can't answer a simple question I asked you like what fundamental features are missing from iOS vs Android you resort to personal attacks.

Are you getting an inferior CPU with an iPhone? Yes, clearly so(they are using an old ARM design at, by today's standards, a very low clockspeed).
Are you getting a very small screen with the iPhone? Yes, doesn't take much to observe that.
Are you getting an inferior GPU with an iPhone? Yes, by today's standards you absolutely are(again, not Apple's design and several generations behind current models)
Are you getting less RAM with an iPhone? Yes, you are.
Are you getting an OS that lacks some of the functionality of modern mobile OSs? Yes, you are.
Are you paying the same price you would for a phone with a considerably larger screen, 200%-400% more raw cycles on the CPU and ~2x-3X faster GPU? You sure are.

There are other metrics than raw hardware specs. I pointed out that with twice the RAM of the iPhone 4, better CPU, and better GPU, there are many Android devices that does not provide as smooth of a user experience as the supposedly weaker iPhones. It's not that Android OEM's want to use twice the RAM as an iPhone, it's that they need it just to provide an acceptable level of performance when compared to an iPhone. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool since it costs more money to provide the extra hardware. But all of that doesn't matter. Somehow the metrics you decide are important are the ones everyone in the world should use. Any metrics that does not agree with your opinions are to be discarded. Any arguments anyone makes that provide a counterpoint are met with a closed mind by you and ignored because you somehow can't fathom that your opinions may not matter to the vast majority of consumers.

There are so many instances where raw hardware specs matter very little. Among them are cases such as the Gameboy DS vs a PSP. Clearly the Gameboy DS provides better value with lesser hardware. Then there are the many people who pay money at places like Best Buys for a computer when they can get one cheaper, or at least more powerful, online. Not hardware but similar in thought is paying more for a night ticket to a movie vs matinee. Moviegoers would tell you they don't feel screwed because they paid more vs the afternoon matinee price. Why? Because value is subjective. What you feel is valuable is not what someone else feels is valuable. What is more important is how satisfied the consumer was with his or her purchase. But you don't care. You said they got screwed and that's that. No one else can have dissenting thoughts from yours. Quite frankly, your arguments speak of great hubris in assuming that everyone should think the way you do and that anyone with a differing opinion doesn't matter.

Wow, what was I thinking, clearly the iPhone isn't screwing customers, paying a premium price for a phone that's over a year old must be a great deal, I just can't comprehend how.

As opposed to just released Android devices with better hardware that performs worse than a year old iPhone? Nevermind that the year old iPhone will have better resale value another year down the line than the top of the line Android devices today. Yeah, iPhone buyers are definitely getting screwed.

I'm done with this argument. You have done nothing to prove your point because you conveniently ignore any counterpoints anyone brings up that would cast a bad light on your argument. Since it is no use arguing with someone who has a closed mind, I won't bother to do so any longer.

What a joke. I would feel truly screwed if I were talked into getting an Android smartphone with the latest OMG dual-core processor, only to find that it feels like a cheap, slow piece of junk next to a friend's iPhone.

I absolutely agree. I'm in the process of choosing an Android device for my old man (he wants to stay on T-Mobile) but haven't pulled the trigger because every device has some flaw so far or is too expensive for an Android device. I'd love to get the Samsung Galaxy S2 on T-Mobile but it doesn't look like it's coming out soon.

 

[Pliablemoose]

BenSkywalker, you keep repeating the same thing over and over, fact is the iPhone outsells every single other phone, has the highest customer satisfaction and has the highest loyalty levels of any device.

The yearly refresh has a significant advantage for 3rd party manufacturers, you can get nearly any kind of case or accessory you can imagine, because manufacturers are sure they'll have at least a year to sell what they develop/manufacture.

I'd like to have a comparison when the iP5 comes out, because you're comparing a >1 year old device with the newest stuff on the market.

I too, will not continue this discussion, except to mention Apple sold 20 million iPhones last quarter. What are the sales figures of any single Android phone you can compare that to?

 

[theeedude]

Your congressman will look at all the current issues re: Google, and realize they can't step in and not look like a tool.

This will take some time to play out, BBC will likely have QNX phones out by then, and WebOS will likely have been licensed out as well.

What issues would those be?

 

[Pliablemoose]

What issues would those be?

I'm not even going there.

If you wanted to, you can find out for yourself. But rest assured, congress will do absolutely nothing to help Google at this point.

If they do, you're welcome to say you were right in the future, and say you've owned me, but IMHO there's 0% chance of that happening either.

Good luck with the letter writing campaign.

 

[Pliablemoose]

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/07/google-blinks-in-oracle-patent-case.html

Google just offered to settle with Oracle.

Oracle wants 2.6 billion...

 

[zerocool84]

This thread is why I've stopped posting in this section.

 

[Pliablemoose]

This thread is why I've stopped posting in this section.

Sometimes business is just business.

I watched the MS/Apple litigation back in the day, hated Apple for years, it was an epic battle...

To be brutally honest, I think Apple has about 18 months left, Steve will likely be dead in 3-6 months, this court/patent stuff will drag on for years.

I also think this (the patent issues) is Job's last big thing. I think he really hates Google, and wants to kill Android. We shall see, but I suspect it won't work out that well for him.

 

[badb0y]

Sometimes business is just business.

I watched the MS/Apple litigation back in the day, hated Apple for years, it was an epic battle...

To be brutally honest, I think Apple has about 18 months left, Steve will likely be dead in 3-6 months, this court/patent stuff will drag on for years.

I also think this (the patent issues) is Job's last big thing. I think he really hates Google, and wants to kill Android. We shall see, but I suspect it won't work out that well for him.

What do you mean by that? They just reported record profits:
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22201

 

[BenSkywalker]

Anyone arguing the point, if someone were to ask you if they should buy an iPhone 4 *TODAY* and you told them to wait for an iPhone 5 instead, if you can't figure out the rest it certainly isn't worth wasting more space on.

 

[smartpatrol]

I absolutely agree. I'm in the process of choosing an Android device for my old man (he wants to stay on T-Mobile) but haven't pulled the trigger because every device has some flaw so far or is too expensive for an Android device. I'd love to get the Samsung Galaxy S2 on T-Mobile but it doesn't look like it's coming out soon.

If you're open to WP7, you can get the 16GB Venue Pro on T-Mobile for $299 unlocked or $0.99 on contract. You have to get it direct from Dell, though. I have heard a lot of good things about its build quality:
http://www.dell.com/us/p/mobile-ven...&baynote_bnrank=0&baynote_irrank=0&redirect=1

 

[BeauJangles]

Sometimes business is just business.

I watched the MS/Apple litigation back in the day, hated Apple for years, it was an epic battle...

To be brutally honest, I think Apple has about 18 months left, Steve will likely be dead in 3-6 months, this court/patent stuff will drag on for years.

I also think this (the patent issues) is Job's last big thing. I think he really hates Google, and wants to kill Android. We shall see, but I suspect it won't work out that well for him.

lol wat?

Apple is poised to become the biggest company in the world. They're not going anywhere no matter what happens to Steve Jobs.