Let's play "what if...."

[Pliablemoose]

Google has not abandoned its partners

http://www.noticeorange.com/StoryBo...RpY2VvcmFuZ2VyDQsSBFNpdGUY2ZLqAQw&font_size=9

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Yeah, the guy that used to sit on Apple's board, and was on stage for the iPhones intro in 2007, and resigned from the board in 2009 because of Android.

What's he going to say? "yeah, we stole from Oracle and Apple, we screwed the pooch on those Nortel patents, and you can consider yourselves thrown under the bus as Apple cuts you into shreds in court?"

Seriously, that guy is so full of crap.

Where was Google when HTC agreed to pay Microsoft $5/phone?

 

[Doboji]

Yeah, the guy that used to sit on Apple's board, and was on stage for the iPhones intro in 2007, and resigned from the board in 2009 because of Android.

What's he going to say? "yeah, we stole from Oracle and Apple, we screwed the pooch on those Nortel patents, and you can consider yourselves thrown under the bus as Apple cuts you into shreds in court?"

Seriously, that guy is so full of crap.

Where was Google when HTC agreed to pay Microsoft $5/phone?

Well... the proof will be in the pudding. 18 months from now when this thing finally settles one way or the other. At that point either HTC will have won with help from Google... or Google will have come up with an alternative means of this functionality... or HTC will be selling Windows...

Google is highly motivated to keep it's take-over of the mobile platform going... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that traditional computing is on the way out... whoever dominates the mobile market is king. Google wants to be king... there's NO WAY they let Android dissipate into the ether.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Jobs is likely still royally pissed @ Schmidt, I think we're going to see this get really ugly.

 

[dguy6789]

Google is about as likely to let Android die as Apple would be to let iOS die.

 

[Anubis]

Google is about as likely to let Android die as Apple would be to let iOS die.

pretty much this

 

[cheezy321]

Google is about as likely to let Android die as Apple would be to let iOS die.

yep.

 

[smartpatrol]

Google is about as likely to let Android die as Apple would be to let iOS die.

I see everybody saying this, but realistically, what can Google do? Their OS infringes on others' patents, and they don't have a strong patent portfolio of their own. How exactly can Google fight back?

 

[theeedude]

I see everybody saying this, but realistically, what can Google do? Their OS infringes on others' patents, and they don't have a strong patent portfolio of their own. How exactly can Google fight back?

You don't need a strong portfolio. You only need one strong patent to block imports and force the other side to negotiate. HTC bought some S3 patents that Apple has already been ruled to infringe. Just like Apple can ask for HTC Android devices to be excluded, HTC can ask for Apple iOS devices to be excluded from the US market. At the end, they'll settle, and life will go on as usual, with a few patent lawyers getting a Ferrari or two in the process.

 

[theeedude]

Yeah, the guy that used to sit on Apple's board, and was on stage for the iPhones intro in 2007, and resigned from the board in 2009 because of Android.

What's he going to say? "yeah, we stole from Oracle and Apple, we screwed the pooch on those Nortel patents, and you can consider yourselves thrown under the bus as Apple cuts you into shreds in court?"

Seriously, that guy is so full of crap.

Where was Google when HTC agreed to pay Microsoft $5/phone?

Where was HTC when Google was bidding for Nortel Patents? Did they offer to throw a billion into the pool? HTC is making enough money off Android to afford it.

 

[Mopetar]

Google is about as likely to let Android die as Apple would be to let iOS die.

Android is really tangental to Google's aims. They want to make sure that they have mobile applications for their services and that they are the ones generating revenue from advertising on these devices.

If they were able to do all of that on the other platforms, there would be no real reason for them to keep Android around other than to add value to their brand.

If Google were suddenly faced with paying a large amount of money to Oracle for every Android activation, they might start weighing the benefits of the platform. I suspect that Oracle will just want to keep milking the cow, rather than beating it to death, so even if Google loses their case Android probably won't go away.

 

[Pliablemoose]

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-does-5-buy-htc-from-apple-few.html

A good read, long, but a good read.

Basically it suggests Apple has no interest in licensing and won't settle for it.

Foss also asserts its not a matter of if Apple will win, but when.

 

[Doboji]

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-does-5-buy-htc-from-apple-few.html

A good read, long, but a good read.

Basically it suggests Apple has no interest in licensing and won't settle for it.

Foss also asserts its not a matter of if Apple will win, but when.

Mueller is just one lawyer... I value his opinion greatly but he isn't always right...

 

[badb0y]

You don't need a strong portfolio. You only need one strong patent to block imports and force the other side to negotiate. HTC bought some S3 patents that Apple has already been ruled to infringe. Just like Apple can ask for HTC Android devices to be excluded, HTC can ask for Apple iOS devices to be excluded from the US market. At the end, they'll settle, and life will go on as usual, with a few patent lawyers getting a Ferrari or two in the process.

There's a way around those patents though. For HTC it doesn't look like Apple wants to settle for anything. Eventually Google will have to step in and then it will be....

 

[smartpatrol]

You don't need a strong portfolio. You only need one strong patent to block imports and force the other side to negotiate. HTC bought some S3 patents that Apple has already been ruled to infringe. Just like Apple can ask for HTC Android devices to be excluded, HTC can ask for Apple iOS devices to be excluded from the US market. At the end, they'll settle, and life will go on as usual, with a few patent lawyers getting a Ferrari or two in the process.

I understand that that MAY save HTC in this case.

I meant the question in a more general sense. What can Google possibly do? It seems quite clear that Android infringes on patents held by MS, Oracle, and Apple. The best case scenario is probably that Android OEMs will end up paying licensing fees to multiple patent holders. Worst case is that their products will be banned from import.

And, if you read the very informative article Pliablemoose just posted, he makes a very good case that Apple has no desire, nor legal requirement, to license its patents.

So I will ask the question again: what can Google do to fight back?

 

[Pliablemoose]

There's a way around those patents though. For HTC it doesn't look like Apple wants to settle for anything. Eventually Google will have to step in and then it will be....

Google doesn't have anything to step in with... What are they going to do? Start paying manufacturers to install Android?

 

[poofyhairguy]

Give up on the US market? Pull a Nokia?

 

[akugami]

The problem with that argument is that there are a limited number of simple hand gestures that can be used. There are one finger swipes, two finger swipes, two finger pinches, etc. The type of gesture that is used is irrelevant, merely the method used in order to determine which gesture is being made.

The university of Delaware patents don't talk about anything than recognizing gestures for one or multiple fingers and say nothing about what kind of gesture is being used. Even still, I'm sure some clever bastard could find a loophole in their claims.

I pointed out the U of D's patents because if anything points to prior art and can invalidate Apple's multi-touch patents, those are likely it. I'm not aware of any others.

But just because there are a limited number of gesture types that one can reasonably use in a multi-touch gesture based interface still doesn't make pinch-to-zoom obvious. Yes, it seems very intuitive and obvious now but you still haven't proved that it was obvious prior to Apple patenting (popularizing?) it. Again, it doesn't matter if there are only a limited number of gestures that one can reasonably use for the multi-touch controls, what matters is if it was an original invention or idea. Multi-touch itself isn't an original idea but the courts (for now) feel like the pinch-to-zoom control is an original idea.

Not here to argue the validity of the Apple patents, just pointing out that obvious ideas may not be so obvious before they were popularized and that just because there is a limited number of reasonable and intuitive way to do things doesn't mean they can't be patented if you thought of it first.

Google has not abandoned its partners

http://www.noticeorange.com/StoryBo...RpY2VvcmFuZ2VyDQsSBFNpdGUY2ZLqAQw&font_size=9

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

What else is Google going to say? Our partners are f___ed and there's not much we can do about it? Oracle is suing Google over Android. MS is sueing Android OEM's (and HTC has caved), Apple is suing Android OEM's. Google has almost no patents regarding the mobile industries.

Android is really tangental to Google's aims. They want to make sure that they have mobile applications for their services and that they are the ones generating revenue from advertising on these devices.

I disagree. Android is a primary delivery medium for Google's main product which are ads. I think tablets and other mobile devices are going to steal some of the users from the traditional desktop PC. They want to keep people tied to their web services (like Gmail, Google search, etc) so they can keep delivering ads. Why do you think Google is paying Apple a ton of money to be the primary/default search engine on iOS devices? Hundreds of millions of mobile devices already out there with Google's search engine as the default one and more to come every year.

If Google were suddenly faced with paying a large amount of money to Oracle for every Android activation, they might start weighing the benefits of the platform. I suspect that Oracle will just want to keep milking the cow, rather than beating it to death, so even if Google loses their case Android probably won't go away.

No question they'd want to keep Android around at that point. With just a $1 royalty for every Android device, Oracle would reap over $180 million per year. There's no reason to kill the golden cow. That's all assuming Oracle wins of course. The number was derived by assuming 500k android activations per day which is probably a lowball number considering it's pegged at about 550k activations per day and that Android sales are growing.

 

[vshah]

i wonder if google holds or has applied for patents for android's notification system. iOS5's upcoming system is mighty similar...

 

[MagickMan]

Give up on the US market? Pull a Nokia?

I think this is more likely than some want to believe. Apple doesn't want to settle, they want to kill off Android in the USA.

 

[theeedude]

I understand that that MAY save HTC in this case.

I meant the question in a more general sense. What can Google possibly do? It seems quite clear that Android infringes on patents held by MS, Oracle, and Apple. The best case scenario is probably that Android OEMs will end up paying licensing fees to multiple patent holders. Worst case is that their products will be banned from import.

And, if you read the very informative article Pliablemoose just posted, he makes a very good case that Apple has no desire, nor legal requirement, to license its patents.

So I will ask the question again: what can Google do to fight back?

Lobbying. Lots of it. The patent system is ultimately a political creation and it needs to be handled politically. The hundreds of millions that it costs to buy patents or hire patent lawyers are much better spent buying political influence. Google needs to run ads along the lines of "call your congressman and tell them to reform the patent system, or you will not be able to buy an Android phone in the near future." There are enough Android fans to flip elections.

 

[MagickMan]

Lobbying. Lots of it. The patent system is ultimately a political creation and it needs to be handled politically. The hundreds of millions that it costs to buy patents or hire patent lawyers are much better spent buying political influence. Google needs to run ads along the lines of "call your congressman and tell them to reform the patent system, or you will not be able to buy an Android phone in the near future." There are enough Android fans to flip elections.

Doubtful, most people don't even know what Android is, they just know their Droid is neat and lets them browse the Web... sorta. There aren't enough fanboys on either side to make a difference.

 

[theeedude]

Doubtful, most people don't even know what Android is, they just know their Droid is neat and lets them browse the Web... sorta. There aren't enough fanboys on either side to make a difference.

People know what Android is, and they are going to notice if their neat Droid is pulled off the market.

 

[BenSkywalker]

First and foremost, this is probably the 3rd or 4th time you've done this in response to a post by me. I didn't post what you quoted and responded to. Attribute the quote correctly.

[Redacted] I don't attribute quotes to people, go ahead and check. Arguing with a person is a very stupid thing to do. I debate points.

I'm sure everyone appreciates you telling them when they're getting screwed.

Are you getting an inferior CPU with an iPhone? Yes, clearly so(they are using an old ARM design at, by today's standards, a very low clockspeed).
Are you getting a very small screen with the iPhone? Yes, doesn't take much to observe that.
Are you getting an inferior GPU with an iPhone? Yes, by today's standards you absolutely are(again, not Apple's design and several generations behind current models)
Are you getting less RAM with an iPhone? Yes, you are.
Are you getting an OS that lacks some of the functionality of modern mobile OSs? Yes, you are.
Are you paying the same price you would for a phone with a considerably larger screen, 200%-400% more raw cycles on the CPU and ~2x-3X faster GPU? You sure are.

Wow, what was I thinking, clearly the iPhone isn't screwing customers, paying a premium price for a phone that's over a year old must be a great deal, I just can't comprehend how.

Basically it suggests Apple has no interest in licensing and won't settle for it.

If they guy wasn't ignorant of exactly what the S3 patents are he may understand things a bit better. Apple can not get around them and still make their own SoC- doesn't matter who they license the designs from(they can *buy* chips from nV and be covered, but if they license nV's designs they still use S3 IP, nV just has a license for it).

The S3TC patents are not obvious(not even close), not trivial and extremely specific- they are so strong because the entire industry hopped on board what was a major step forward.

You honestly thinking iOS looks more like a BB is pretty comical.

http://smsread.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/16827-blackberry-torch-9800-versus-iphone-4.jpg

Form factor isn't the same as the OS, that's an important part of understanding this market.

Leave out the personal attacks and insults.
Moderator TheStu

 

[Deeko]

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-does-5-buy-htc-from-apple-few.html

A good read, long, but a good read.

Basically it suggests Apple has no interest in licensing and won't settle for it.

Foss also asserts its not a matter of if Apple will win, but when.

Good read, thanks. Although it hinges on the idea that Apple won't take money...I think they will. If they kill Android, that will mean more Windows Phones from HTC and Samsung. By taking a licensing deal, they get money for Android sales as is - and if manufacturers drop it, well, they're in the same situation as if they'd had it banned. Might as well take that shot.

 

[cheezy321]

Is English not your first language? I'll have to assume it isn't for you to post something that ignorant. I don't attribute quotes to people, go ahead and check. Arguing with a person is a very stupid thing to do. I debate points.



Are you getting an inferior CPU with an iPhone? Yes, clearly so(they are using an old ARM design at, by today's standards, a very low clockspeed).
Are you getting a very small screen with the iPhone? Yes, doesn't take much to observe that.
Are you getting an inferior GPU with an iPhone? Yes, by today's standards you absolutely are(again, not Apple's design and several generations behind current models)
Are you getting less RAM with an iPhone? Yes, you are.
Are you getting an OS that lacks some of the functionality of modern mobile OSs? Yes, you are.
Are you paying the same price you would for a phone with a considerably larger screen, 200%-400% more raw cycles on the CPU and ~2x-3X faster GPU? You sure are.

Wow, what was I thinking, clearly the iPhone isn't screwing customers, paying a premium price for a phone that's over a year old must be a great deal, I just can't comprehend how.



If they guy wasn't ignorant of exactly what the S3 patents are he may understand things a bit better. Apple can not get around them and still make their own SoC- doesn't matter who they license the designs from(they can *buy* chips from nV and be covered, but if they license nV's designs they still use S3 IP, nV just has a license for it).

The S3TC patents are not obvious(not even close), not trivial and extremely specific- they are so strong because the entire industry hopped on board what was a major step forward.



http://smsread.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/16827-blackberry-torch-9800-versus-iphone-4.jpg

Form factor isn't the same as the OS, that's an important part of understanding this market.

Your obvious bias against the iPhone makes it hard to even take you seriously.

90% of smartphone buyers hardly care about specs like processor and RAM, or even GPU. They do care about storage space, screen size and aesthetics of the phone. As long as the UI is smooth and easy to use, its all gravy. Its all about the user experience. Bottom line the iPhone is the best selling smartphone phone of all time. Its not even close. If so many people were getting screwed over this wouldn't be true. For the fifth time running, iPhone users are the most satisfied customers.
Source: http://www.bgr.com/2011/03/18/apple...-in-j-d-power-survey-rim-falls-to-last-place/

If you tow the typical line, I would guess your next comment would be that all iPhone users are idiots and don't know that they are getting screwed. You are part of a very very small percentage that believes this.