Let's play "what if...."

[Pliablemoose]

Do you guys really think FTC and European competition authorities are going to let Apple crush Android without instituting compulsory licensing on essential IP?

Profit margin on Android phones is 10-13%, Android tablets even less, how much do you think the manufacturers will pay? Apple has 16 more patent issues filed against HTC, and has filed against Moto as well.

I think Google screwed everyone here...

 

[Puddle Jumper]

Profit margin on Android phones is 10-13%, Android tablets even less, how much do you think the manufacturers will pay? Apple has 16 more patent issues filed against HTC, and has filed against Moto as well.

I think Google screwed everyone here...

i believe his point was the EU in particlar seems to be very aggressive with fining comapies it believes are responsible for anti competitive acts.

Assuming Apple does try to kill Android using legal tactics it's possible they could get hit with a multi billion dollar fine. After all they have fined companies for much less in the past.

I also suspect malware for both Macs and iOS might increase substantially should apple succeed in killing Android. There are a lot of very talented developers working on modding Android and even if a small percentage decide they want vengeance it could be major trouble for Apple.

 

[Dulanic]

Profit margin on Android phones is 10-13%, Android tablets even less, how much do you think the manufacturers will pay? Apple has 16 more patent issues filed against HTC, and has filed against Moto as well.

I think Google screwed everyone here...

No I believe apple screwed everyone here. Every tech has lawsuits that can be filed on generic patents. Apple is just pushing hardcore because they are scared.

The only mistake google made was not filing 1000 stupid generic patents like other companies.

 

[Doboji]

I blame the US Patent system, not Google, and not even Apple. Generic bullshit patents like the ones that this case were about should have been thrown out, and fines should have been issued for wasting people's time. The only legit patents should be true inventions... And they should be well substantiated. This generic vague crap has to stop. Right now that game is set to seriously negatively impact consumer choices... And that is a problem.

 

[akugami]

I have to imagine you laughing as you are typing that, I can't see anyone saying that with a straight face, honestly.

How about a screen larger then 3.5"?

Different design philosophy. For many, 3.5" is perfectly fine. How is that screwing over the customers though? Everyone likes the bigger shinier toy but it's not like 3.5" is unusable as a screen size. I believer every Blackberry has a screen smaller than 3.5". Does that make Blackberries inferior somehow because of the smaller screen? Please explain this one to me.

How about the ability to create a desktop that doesn't look like Windows 3.1 out of the box?

I didn't realize iOS (even the original) looked like Windows 3.1 out of the box. Care to back that up with proof? I remember Win3.1 and it looked nothing like iOS and control wise, Win3.1 and iOS are nothing alike either. Not to mention Android's OS is heavily influenced by iOS.

How about widgets?

Widgets are wonderful. But is it a fundamental feature for smartphones? This is indeed arguable both ways. I say no because you can still do everything on an iOS phone with or without widgets that you can on an Android phone.

Ask yourself, is there something widgets allow you to do that you can't on an OS without widgets? I mean, aside from faster access to information or controls that is (the whole point of widgets). If I wanted the weather, widgets can provide that in a split second but does not having it somehow make accessing weather information impossible on iOS? Is it somehow suddenly impossible to play music without widgets on iOS?

How about a notification bar?

Again, quicker access to customized information. Which is a good thing. I think it's a great thing. I am happy notifications are coming to iOS 5. I'm actually not happy widgets are not coming to iOS 5. But is not having a notification bar somehow preventing me from accessing the same information elsewhere? Is not having a notification bar somehow preventing me from doing certain tasks or accessing certain information?

These are absolutely trivial items, core basic features any decent smart phone should have in late 2009. These are all also features that I see *every single* Android user using on their devices(I'm sure somewhere in the world there are some that don't, but I don't see them). Cut & Paste is honestly something that most users don't use all that frequently, the very basic smartphone OS elements that iOS lacks are things that are extremely popular for typical users.



Take away notification bar, widgets, desktop customization and force all Android devices to use a 3.5" screen and you are stuck with a truly lousy device, iOS bad.

All of the features you listed are desirable ones. They increase usability. However, none of them prevent you from doing the same tasks or accessing the same information without said features. Basically, none of the functions are fundamental ones. The lack of these features does not prevent you from accessing or doing the same tasks as a smartphone/tablet with these features. What notifications and widgets does do is giving you quicker access to some tasks and information in a customizable format. Again, this is a good thing. But it's not like widgets and notifications somehow enable you to do something you couldn't before.

So how can you sit there and think Apple is screwing over customers when their mobile OS is just as capable (for the vast majority of consumers) as any mobile OS out there today? For the vast majority of consumers you can do everything (probably not as easily, which is ironic considering Apple's stance on simplification) on iOS that you can on Android.

My statement was that Apple's iOS is a fine consumer smartphone OS and does everything the overwhelming majority of users use it for. That makes it a good smartphone OS. The best? No. But it's not an OS that is somehow so inferior that one can say "Apple is screwing consumers" with it. Which is my argument and I'm standing by it.

 

[shortylickens]

Not sure about iPhone but:
I am finding the tiles in WP7 easier and more useful than widgets in Android. I only wish they would go three across, but thats minor.
And if you have the important info on tiles you dont need much in the notification bar, and you can access it quickly.
And arguably the desktop looks even worse than 3.1, but since its a phone I dont care. Also theres plenty of body and screen sizes to suit your taste. Either a small AMOLED with the Samsung Focus, or a behemoth like the HD7.

You know what, if you got used to iOS I cant see anything forcing you over to Android, but I bet a lot of those people could easily migrate to WP7 and still be content.

 

[zerocool84]

It appears Jobs is on a holy war, Apple is beefing up it's in house counsel, this could be epic.

I'm beginning to suspect Google knew Android is hosed and thats why they didn't pursue the Nortel patents...

They did pursue them, did you forget that they were the first ones with an offer on the table? There was no way they could compete with all those companies after the fact so Google did their retarded bids.

 

[Pliablemoose]

i believe his point was the EU in particlar seems to be very aggressive with fining comapies it believes are responsible for anti competitive acts.

Assuming Apple does try to kill Android using legal tactics it's possible they could get hit with a multi billion dollar fine. After all they have fined companies for much less in the past.

I also suspect malware for both Macs and iOS might increase substantially should apple succeed in killing Android. There are a lot of very talented developers working on modding Android and even if a small percentage decide they want vengeance it could be major trouble for Apple.

I'm pretty sure Apple will work with law enforcement to go after any hackers, etc, and frankly, Europe doesn't have a damn thing to do with a US issue.

If Apple does something in the EU, I'm sure it will be with the court's blessing.

 

[Pliablemoose]

They did pursue them, did you forget that they were the first ones with an offer on the table? There was no way they could compete with all those companies after the fact so Google did their retarded bids.

Sucks to be Google, I guess. Maybe they need to groom some strategic alliances rather than play games.

I can just imagine a judge being sympathetic to Google's case, "Well your honor, we want to make a pile of money, not them, and we bid pi because we're smarter than them."

The whole Oracle/Java thing is stupid too, "Your honor, we stole it because we wanted to make a free OS we could make money with."

Seriously, Google is acting like everyone's in Junior High, this isn't going to end well for them.

 

[smartpatrol]

I think it's extremely lame that Google is just sitting by the sidelines while Android handset manufacturers are getting sued left and right. They created Android and gave it away in order to get more people using Google's services, so they can ultimately collect more data and use it to sell ads.

Google are the ones taking in the lion's share of the profits, while their handset partners are the ones exposed to all the risk.

Could it be that Google is silent because they don't have a leg to stand on in court?

 

[Puddle Jumper]

I'm pretty sure Apple will work with law enforcement to go after any hackers, etc, and frankly, Europe doesn't have a damn thing to do with a US issue.

If Apple does something in the EU, I'm sure it will be with the court's blessing.

Look at what happened to Sony and they did far less to aggravate the community than killing Android would. I have no doubt apple would try to track down the perpetrators but a major attack our outbreak would shatter the illusion of security they have marketed so heavily over the years and there is no way to undo that.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Look at what happened to Sony and they did far less to aggravate the community than killing Android would. I have no doubt apple would try to track down the perpetrators but a major attack our outbreak would shatter the illusion of security they have marketed so heavily over the years and there is no way to undo that.

Yep, Apple is doomed.

 

[BenSkywalker]

I think Google screwed everyone here...

Your signature "violates" one of the patents the ITC upheld against HTC. Google is not too worried for good reason, Motorola's suit against Apple is going to get a big chunk of these patents thrown out(showing prior art is trivial for the patent that is Android related- networking support in Win 3.11 used the technology covered years before Apple applied for the patent).

Different design philosophy. For many, 3.5" is perfectly fine. How is that screwing over the customers though?

Anyone who wants something other then 3.5" is getting screwed over. There may be people that want a screen smaller then 3.5", with iOS they are getting screwed over because Apple tells them exactly what they want and they get no choice.

Does that make Blackberries inferior somehow because of the smaller screen?

One of many reasons, absolutely. Simply look at the utter implosion Blackberry has had over the last couple of years. Selling a device with a tiny screen and significantly lower specs then the competition while still charging premium prices are yet another example of them screwing over the customers(this can apply to either Apple or RIM).

I didn't realize iOS (even the original) looked like Windows 3.1 out of the box. Care to back that up with proof? I remember Win3.1 and it looked nothing like iOS and control wise, Win3.1 and iOS are nothing alike either. Not to mention Android's OS is heavily influenced by iOS.

Icons thrown on the desktop with limited options in how to deal with them, folder or seperate them out in clusters. Limited options for customization, no Start menu/app drawer. BTW- How is Android heavily influenced by iOS?

I say no because you can still do everything on an iOS phone with or without widgets that you can on an Android phone.

You can do everything from a CLI that you can do with iOS's UI. In real world terms, Android's UI has multiple ways of getting information in a significantly faster and easier method then iOS.

However, none of them prevent you from doing the same tasks or accessing the same information without said features.

Using your argument you can take it to its' logical conclusion that noone needs a smartphone at all. For real world uses, making information easier to access is a major reason to have a smartphone, and on that front Android is clearly superior to iOS. For the record, it isn't just Android that offers superior functionality to iOS on this front.

But it's not an OS that is somehow so inferior that one can say "Apple is screwing consumers" with it.

You can say that about the iPhone and easily so. Paying a premium price for a tiny screen, very limited RAM, very outdated processor and a functionally inferior OS certainly adds up to screwing over the customer. You are paying a premium price for inferior technology, that pretty much sums up screwing over the customer.

Sucks to be Google, I guess. Maybe they need to groom some strategic alliances rather than play games.

What about Apple stealing HTC's IP? I think this is the more interesting issue to watch, when Apple isn't allowed to produce their in house processors any more it could make for an exceptional oppurtunity for MS and HP to gain massive marketshare quickly.

Edit-

Didn't realize Apple had already lost the S3 case, looks like it may be November 1st when we see all iDevices pulled from the market-

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...ringes-two-s3-graphics-patents-124892519.html

Unlike Apple's victory, this one isn't trivial at all and there is no prior art to get around it.

 

[Pliablemoose]

The larger screened iOS device is called an iPad. Apple has sold 25 million of them so far, and still essentially owns the tablet market...

How many people bitched and still complain about the size of 4-4.3/4.5" screened phones, saying they were too big. I do personally like larger screens.

All of your points are subjective opinions, sales of 17 million iPhones this quarter seem to suggest many people do like the iPhone, despite your many problems with it. Saying Apple is in the same shape as RIM suggests you have no concept of what's selling in the telecom industry. Apple came out of nowhere in 07' and can now buy and sell RIM several times over in cash...

Dunno what CPU HTC builds for Apple, I suspect you meant Samsung.

IMHO, Apple does a hell of a lot right to do as well as it does in the marketplace. As soon as they slap a 4" screen on the iPhone and a 4G LTE radio in one, I'm likely going to make the switch.

I love how suddenly everyone has become a software patent expert over the weekend.

 

[BenSkywalker]

All of your points are subjective opinions

So explain to me, from your perspective, how iOS has widgets, a screen other then 3.5", and a notification bar.

I love how suddenly everyone has become a software patent expert over the weekend.

I've been posting on these forums for thirteen years now, I've been extremely well versed on IP for longer then that. The graphics IP that Apple violated I didn't need to look up, I know what company holds what patents off the top of my head for the most part on all of the major, can't get around it IP.

Apple already lost their case(of course, noone covers that). HTC can simply wait it out and shut down iOS operations as of November 1st at this point. The patents Apple has been found guilty of violating are already tested in a court of law, something Apple can't say. As of this moment, Apple is in significantly more danger then Google on the patent front.

 

[Pliablemoose]

So explain to me, from your perspective, how iOS has widgets, a screen other then 3.5", and a notification bar.



I've been posting on these forums for thirteen years now, I've been extremely well versed on IP for longer then that. The graphics IP that Apple violated I didn't need to look up, I know what company holds what patents off the top of my head for the most part on all of the major, can't get around it IP.

Apple already lost their case(of course, noone covers that). HTC can simply wait it out and shut down iOS operations as of November 1st at this point. The patents Apple has been found guilty of violating are already tested in a court of law, something Apple can't say. As of this moment, Apple is in significantly more danger then Google on the patent front.

No one is suing Google, except Oracle that I know of. Apple is going after the manufacturers, not Google.

Have you ever used an iPhone? The display may be 3.5 inches, but the resolution is amazing. And the whole display size issue will likely be moot in a month or so, as well as notifications. Widgets are nice, but I tend not to use them because of the battery drain. I can tolerate a couple of key presses on my devices.

Now a BT watch that displays texts and email notifications is something I do want.... Go go Fossil...

As far as the S3 patents, that may let HTC off the hook, but it won't help Moto or the others... Apple still has 16 other patent issues cooking with HTC.

 

[foghorn67]

No one is suing Google, except Oracle that I know of. Apple is going after the manufacturers, not Google.

Have you ever used an iPhone? The display may be 3.5 inches, but the resolution is amazing. And the whole display size issue will likely be moot in a month or so, as well as notifications. Widgets are nice, but I tend not to use them because of the battery drain. I can tolerate a couple of key presses on my devices.

Now a BT watch that displays texts and email notifications is something I do want.... Go go Fossil...

I'm on the iphone now, and the 3.5 inch screen is a joke. Yeah, the Retina display is amazing, but so was my OG Droid on a 3.7 with a better aspect ratio.
Honestly, I'm actually not sure how they are going to make a 4" display while on a phone with the same footprint as an gen4. They either need to make it slightly bigger, or ditch the awful top and bottom bezels and go with something besides the old 2:3 ratio.
16:9 is the way to go to maximize screen size.
But that would give devs a new challenge. The last change was just doubling the pixel count, which was easier on them.
So now the options are.
1)4" inch screen, but having a wider phone, 2:3 ratio still intact.
2)Keep the 3.5" to preserve aspect ratio and make it easier on developers, but you're still stuck in 2007.
3)Bite the bullet and go 16:9, preserving the phone's ideal footprint, but make it weird for developers to adapt.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Have you ever used an iPhone?

Yes, I have one.

The display may be 3.5 inches, but the resolution is amazing.

Not really, no. Marginal difference in display resolution for significantly less screen real estate and an absolutely HUGE phone considering the tiny dimmensions of the screen, just a bad design all around.

Widgets are nice, but I tend not to use them because of the battery drain.

Screen time is the biggest drain on batteries, turn your screen on quickly, get all your information then turn it back off is a lot less of a battery drain then having to have your screen on for a minute or more to launch four different apps.

As far as the S3 patents, that may let HTC off the hook

Apple is the one on the hook, as of right now they can't sell any iOS devices as of November 1st due to a patent which has been through judicial process. HTC doesn't need to budge an inch, they can simply remove Apple from the mobile market. As of right now, iOS is much, much closer to going away then Android due to their IP infractions.

but it won't help Moto or the others... Apple still has 16 other patent issues cooking with HTC.

None of which have been through judicial process. These is an ENORMOUS difference in the validity of the patents. Motorola is putting Apple's patents through judicial process now, we'll have to see how that plays out. Apple has already lost. MS and HP may be picking up a lot of marketshare very quickly.

 

[Mopetar]

Apple is the one on the hook, as of right now they can't sell any iOS devices as of November 1st due to a patent which has been through judicial process. HTC doesn't need to budge an inch, they can simply remove Apple from the mobile market. As of right now, iOS is much, much closer to going away then Android due to their IP infractions.

None of which have been through judicial process. These is an ENORMOUS difference in the validity of the patents. Motorola is putting Apple's patents through judicial process now, we'll have to see how that plays out. Apple has already lost. MS and HP may be picking up a lot of marketshare very quickly.

Doubtful. Apple isn't going to let a product worth tens of billions of dollars disappear. Either they'll make a deal with HTC or buy sufficient protection, even if it costs a lot of money, which they have.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Apple isn't going to let a product worth tens of billions of dollars disappear.

They picked a fight with someone who proved they could cave their legal heads in. It was very, very stupid of Apple to go after companies the way it has. Everyone has known Apple was violating the S3 patents for many years now, nothing was done about it until they decided to be a bully(for the record, nVidia and AMD could both shut down Apple's mobile sector at will too- with a mountain of IP that has already been through the judicial process, when the mobile market becomes more lucrative for them then Apple's desktop segment, expect that to happen).

Either they'll make a deal with HTC or buy sufficient protection, even if it costs a lot of money, which they have.

If HTC pushed for $5 per iDevice, that is retroactive(every iTouch, iPhone and iPad). Apple has the money to cover it, but the damage their legal team has brought to their bottom line is catastrophic. People on these forums defend their legal bully tactics as protecting the interests of their business, the reality is that you can't make anything in this segment without stepping on someone's IP, when you start pushing the issue you are going to find out just how much of that you violate. When people posted about the S3 patent deal I made comment how it was an insane bargain(and people pretty much laughed)- this is why.

 

[Skott]

I remember when Apple was all but dead as a company. Barely hanging onto less than 3% market share of the computer market. That was when MS was dominant and most people didn't know what a cell phone was. Interesting how times have changed since the 90s. Now Apple is strong, kicking ass and taking names. Their computer market share is still small though. If it weren't for the iPhone and iPad Apple would be in a world of mediocrity I would think.

 

[Mopetar]

If HTC pushed for $5 per iDevice, that is retroactive(every iTouch, iPhone and iPad). Apple has the money to cover it, but the damage their legal team has brought to their bottom line is catastrophic.

And if Apple's patents hold up, HTC is essentially locked out of the US as well, which they don't want any more than Apple so they cross-license. If HTC decides to play hardball, Apple just buys a company that has a license to those patents. There're probably one or two out there than could be scooped up for under a billion dollars.

HTC caved to Microsoft's demands. Something tells me that they'll end up cross-licensing with Apple.

 

[BenSkywalker]

And if Apple's patents hold up

This forum is in violation of the same Apple patent. Anything that creates a link on an automatic basis is. Prior art is easy to prove.

If HTC decides to play hardball, Apple just buys a company that has a license to those patents. There're probably one or two out there than could be scooped up for under a billion dollars.

That would be close to best case scenario for HTC's bottom line. Apple would still owe them the money for every device sold prior to getting the license, and they would assure long term revenue from future licensing. HTC could stand to make a couple billion in profits off of that deal.

HTC caved to Microsoft's demands. Something tells me that they'll end up cross-licensing with Apple.

Comparing MS's IP to Apple's is like comparing IBM's to Dell's. You may think they are remotely comparable, but it is an entirely different league. Also, MS already had licenses for the technology they used that HTC owns the rights to, Apple didn't. MS's lawyers have been playing in the big league IP/regulatory game for a very long time, Apple has been a bit player until relatively recently.

 

[MrX8503]

Icons thrown on the desktop with limited options in how to deal with them, folder or seperate them out in clusters. Limited options for customization, no Start menu/app drawer. BTW- How is Android heavily influenced by iOS?

Because your beloved Android used to look like this...

Hmm....looks Blackberry esque....

Then Apple released this in 2007....

Then miraculously in 2008 Android OS transformed into this...

People don't wanna admit it, but Apple redefined what a smartphone should be and how its used. If it weren't for Apple, we wouldn't have an intuitive touch UI in smartphones today. We'd still be fumbling with our stylus's while trying to use this...

Ugh...scrollbar. For as much as there's Apple hate, there should be MS/RIM hate as well for holding consumers in the dark ages for so many years. MS/RIM deserves to fall from the top and should have to work their way back up.

 

[Skott]

Because your beloved Android used to look like this...

Hmm....looks Blackberry esque....

Then Apple released this in 2007....

Then miraculously in 2008 Android OS transformed into this...

People don't wanna admit it, but Apple redefined what a smartphone should be and how its used. If it weren't for Apple, we wouldn't have an intuitive touch UI in smartphones today. We'd still be fumbling with our stylus's while trying to use this...

Ugh...scrollbar. For as much as there's Apple hate, there should be MS/RIM hate as well for holding consumers in the dark ages for so many years. MS/RIM deserves to fall from the top and should have to work back up to the top.

RIM is falling hard. Their stock is taking a beating. Many are saying they will go under its just a matter of time.