Let's play what if: AMD owned PhysX instead of NV

[Silverforce11]

TressFX is garbage and runs very poorly even on AMD hardware and pretty much crippled performance on Nvidia cards.

LIES.


Proof:

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013...deo_card_performance_iq_review/6#.VVsAI_mqpBc

Note the DATE of the article. March 20, 2013.

"At 1080p while only using FXAA for aliasing, the AMD Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition averaged 64.8 FPS while playing with normal hair quality in Tomb Raider. Enabling TressFX takes a large, noticeable hit on the performance. The video card ran averaged 50.4 FPS and operated 22.2% slower after enabling TressFX than it did when playing with hair quality set to normal."

"With the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 running these settings, it averaged 67.2 FPS with hair quality set to normal. When we enabled TressFX the GeForce GTX 680 was running 10.4% slower with an average framerate of 60.2 FPS."

This is why Open Source features is good for gamers, it enables all hardware makers to optimize on even ground, without delays due to encryption or obfuscation.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Article from March 2013. Yeah, that's relevant today. Somehow? Maybe? No, didn't think so.

I also find this quote interesting,


But don't they say you don't need the game code to optimize drivers?

In that quote, does final code mean the final build (as in RTM) or ACTUAL code? From working in the industry long enough, people say "code" when they mean "binaries"....

 

[nvgpu]

It's pretty obvious they meant the final build binaries. It took a lot of patches before that Sabotage Evolved game was barely acceptable to run on Nvidia.

As for those defending the TressFX garbage, go tell that to the millions of GeForce users that couldn't play Tomb Raider in 2013.

 

[3DVagabond]

In that quote, does final code mean the final build (as in RTM) or ACTUAL code? From working in the industry long enough, people say "code" when they mean "binaries"....

We can only go by what they said. Since AMD doesn't lock the code away from nVidia though, it could very well be the actual source code.

 

[3DVagabond]

It's pretty obvious they meant the final build binaries. It took a lot of patches before that Sabotage Evolved game was barely acceptable to run on Nvidia.

As for those defending the TressFX garbage, go tell that to the millions of GeForce users that couldn't play Tomb Raider in 2013.

You know people might take what you say more seriously without the color commentary and just sticking to the facts.

 

[Silverforce11]

It's pretty obvious they meant the final build binaries. It took a lot of patches before that Sabotage Evolved game was barely acceptable to run on Nvidia.

As for those defending the TressFX garbage, go tell that to the millions of GeForce users that couldn't play Tomb Raider in 2013.

More lies.

Already disproved..

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013...deo_card_performance_iq_review/6#.VVsAI_mqpBc

Article date March 20, 2013. NV driver fixed poor TressFX performance and actually ran faster than AMD GPUs with it.

It's nice when effects libraries are open source, all hardware vendors are free to optimize those features, without obfuscation blocking their attempts to extract performance.

Only some here don't think that's good, they like it when PC gaming is segregated with vendor specific features that are encrypted and a black box for developers & competitors to delay or prevent optimizations. Disgraceful that such attitude can stem from PC gamers.

 

[Keysplayr]

More lies.

Already disproved..

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013...deo_card_performance_iq_review/6#.VVsAI_mqpBc

Article date March 20, 2013. NV driver fixed poor TressFX performance and actually ran faster than AMD GPUs with it.

It's nice when effects libraries are open source, all hardware vendors are free to optimize those features, without obfuscation blocking their attempts to extract performance.

Only some here don't think that's good, they like it when PC gaming is segregated with vendor specific features that are encrypted and a black box for developers & competitors to delay or prevent optimizations. Disgraceful that such attitude can stem from PC gamers.

Or you can just own the Nvidia option and not worry about anything. Not saying this to be smug or anything, but this is one way Nvidia differentiates it's products over the competition. Nobody that doesn't buy Nvidia products has to like it, but they do have an option to buy the Nvidia product. Unless defiance and underdog lovin/top dog hatin is your cup of tea, there really isn't a reason to go AMD anymore.

 

[Silverforce11]

Or you can just own the Nvidia option and not worry about anything. Not saying this to be smug or anything, but this is one way Nvidia differentiates it's products over the competition. Nobody that doesn't buy Nvidia products has to like it, but they do have an option to buy the Nvidia product. Unless defiance and underdog lovin/top dog hatin is your cup of tea, there really isn't a reason to go AMD anymore.

Well here, a GTX980 is ~$800.

GTX970 is ~$500.

GTX960 is ~$300.

R290X is ~$450.

R290 (Tri-X, XFX, MSI) is ~$340.

There's not much reasons to go with AMD?

I guess for some people, $ doesn't matter. Me, I rather boycott anti-competitive practices from NV with the blackbox GameWorks to cripple AMD (& Kepler! Those poor peasants on older hardware!) performance. I don't like to bend over and take it when corporations run amok, letting them reach a monopoly status where they will ram it home big time at my expense as a PC gamer.

Anyway, re: nvgpu lying blatantly against facts, at least you aren't spewing that stuff and straight out admit to buying NV to not worry about GameWorks. But its not true, because what happens when Pascal is out? How can we be sure that NV will continue to focus on optimizing for Maxwell? I'm not confident that Hairworks v2, optimized for Pascal, is going to treat Maxwell kindly for example..

 

[Pottuvoi]

The thing with Forward+ is its open source, if you google Forward+ Rendering you will see lots of papers & technical discussions from game devs. You also see AMD presented it at the 2013 GDC (Game Dev Conference). That was during the time where many game engines were moving to deferred rendering to handle bigger & more complex scenes, but the drawback is lack of effective global lighting & AA. Crytek implemented Forward+ (their optimized version of it due to open source nature of Forward+) into their engine awhile go, with its usage in Ryse.

780/Titan/780Ti performs fine in Ryse btw. No NV's blackbox present in that game.

Indeed, Forward+ is not AMD middleware solution nor was AMD the only one doing research on tiled forward rendering at the time they presented their version of it. (IE. Tiled shading in 2011, Forward shading links, etc.)

Which is what is used in Witcher 3 in fact. Forward + rendering to enable deferred engines to apply global lighting & MSAA via direct compute.

If you use forward rendering, you do not use deferred rendering/lighting by definition.

 

[stuff_me_good]

It's pretty obvious they meant the final build binaries. It took a lot of patches before that Sabotage Evolved game was barely acceptable to run on Nvidia.

As for those defending the TressFX garbage, go tell that to the millions of GeForce users that couldn't play Tomb Raider in 2013.

It's not AMD's problem when nVidia don't know how to optimize their own drivers for games.

 

[Keysplayr]

Well here, a GTX980 is ~$800.

GTX970 is ~$500.

GTX960 is ~$300.

R290X is ~$450.

R290 (Tri-X, XFX, MSI) is ~$340.

There's not much reasons to go with AMD?

I guess for some people, $ doesn't matter. Me, I rather boycott anti-competitive practices from NV with the blackbox GameWorks to cripple AMD (& Kepler! Those poor peasants on older hardware!) performance. I don't like to bend over and take it when corporations run amok, letting them reach a monopoly status where they will ram it home big time at my expense as a PC gamer.

Anyway, re: nvgpu lying blatantly against facts, at least you aren't spewing that stuff and straight out admit to buying NV to not worry about GameWorks. But its not true, because what happens when Pascal is out? How can we be sure that NV will continue to focus on optimizing for Maxwell? I'm not confident that Hairworks v2, optimized for Pascal, is going to treat Maxwell kindly for example..

Anti-competitive? I think you mean hyper-competitive.
It isnt Nvidia's fault that AMD cannot convincingly compete in any other metric besides price, is it? Because I'll tell you. That can't last forever as is evident by observing the market. Some here say people buy Nvidia because they dont know any better. Maybe they actually do. ::shrugs::
Just because you rage against the bigger dog in the fight doesnt mean the bigger dog is rabid. The bigger dog just might actually be deserving of its well earned bone. It works pretty hard for it AFAICS.

 

[bystander36]

It's pretty obvious they meant the final build binaries. It took a lot of patches before that Sabotage Evolved game was barely acceptable to run on Nvidia.

As for those defending the TressFX garbage, go tell that to the millions of GeForce users that couldn't play Tomb Raider in 2013.

I bought the game within 2 weeks of release, and the game ran well on 680's.

 

[Azix]

Anti-competitive? I think you mean hyper-competitive.
It isnt Nvidia's fault that AMD cannot convincingly compete in any other metric besides price, is it? Because I'll tell you. That can't last forever as is evident by observing the market. Some here say people buy Nvidia because they dont know any better. Maybe they actually do. ::shrugs::
Just because you rage against the bigger dog in the fight doesnt mean the bigger dog is rabid. The bigger dog just might actually be deserving of its well earned bone. It works pretty hard for it AFAICS.

Can't keep talking down AMDs performance when nvidia only has 2 chips faster than the 290x and they cost a million more. There is also the 295x2 which is the fastest.

Feature-wise there are a lot of benefits.

its not productive to try to pretend AMD only has price.

 

[xthetenth]

It's pretty obvious they meant the final build binaries. It took a lot of patches before that Sabotage Evolved game was barely acceptable to run on Nvidia.

As for those defending the TressFX garbage, go tell that to the millions of GeForce users that couldn't play Tomb Raider in 2013.

Thanks for informing me that I couldn't play Tomb Raider with the card I used to play the game in the year I played the game! Now that I know that I'll step back in time and fix that oversight.

Or you can just own the Nvidia option and not worry about anything. Not saying this to be smug or anything, but this is one way Nvidia differentiates it's products over the competition. Nobody that doesn't buy Nvidia products has to like it, but they do have an option to buy the Nvidia product. Unless defiance and underdog lovin/top dog hatin is your cup of tea, there really isn't a reason to go AMD anymore.

Some people would rather not know that the proceeds of their purchases are going to damaging what they're spending that money on.

 

[SimianR]

A GTX780ti is an obsolete product and it doesnt cost 700$ anymore. It was released in 2013.

Really..move on.

November 2013. And sold for $700 until September 2014. Made obsolete pretty quickly no? You can try to spin this as early hardware adopter tax but rarely does anyone expect that the highest end GPU's to take such a performance hit so quickly.

 

[Genx87]

November 2013. And sold for $700 until September 2014. Made obsolete pretty quickly no? You can try to spin this as early hardware adopter tax but rarely does anyone expect that the highest end GPU's to take such a performance hit so quickly.

Did you start following the GPU market last year? All bleeding edge GPUs cost way more than their performance dictates. All bleeding edge GPUs become middle ware upon the next generation of product.

The people buying these bleeding edge products understand what they are buying. Nobody forced them to spend their cash on these expensive products.

 

[Headfoot]

Unless defiance and underdog lovin/top dog hatin is your cup of tea, there really isn't a reason to go AMD anymore.

Is this a joke?

You do realize aftermarket-to-aftermarket, R9 290 ($250AR) is between 0-10% slower than the GTX 970 ($320AR), 10-20% slower than the GTX 980 ($540AR). You can literally get 2 Tri-X 290s for the price of a 980.

 

[SimianR]

Did you start following the GPU market last year? All bleeding edge GPUs cost way more than their performance dictates. All bleeding edge GPUs become middle ware upon the next generation of product.

The people buying these bleeding edge products understand what they are buying. Nobody forced them to spend their cash on these expensive products.

How often have we seen mid range products released at the same time as the bleeding edge GPU's outperforming them a year later (R9 290 vs 780 Ti)? Midrange gpu's of the next gen also usually aren't completely crushing the last gens high end GPU part either (970 vs 780 Ti). In recent titles it's hard to even call it middleware, its budget level performance.

 

[Genx87]

How often have we seen mid range products released at the same time as the bleeding edge GPU's outperforming them a year later (R9 290 vs 780 Ti)? Midrange gpu's of the next gen also usually aren't completely crushing the last gens high end GPU part either (970 vs 780 Ti). In recent titles it's hard to even call it middleware, its budget level performance.

I see you moved the goal posts from the 960 to the 970. But then make the silly claim a 780TI is budget ware. Find me a 150 dollar GPU that equals the 780Ti.

Even on your moved goalpost claim the 970 and 780Ti are very close in performance. So yes, this is standard how the GPU industry typically works.

And are you really complaining about people willingly giving their money for bleeding edge GPUs overpaid?

 

[SimianR]

I see you moved the goal posts from the 960 to the 970. But then make the silly claim a 780TI is budget ware. Find me a 150 dollar GPU that equals the 780Ti.

Even on your moved goalpost claim the 970 and 780Ti are very close in performance. So yes, this is standard how the GPU industry typically works.

And are you really complaining about people willingly giving their money for bleeding edge GPUs overpaid?

There are clearly people on this forum that own 780 Ti's that aren't happy with its performance as of late. NVIDIA was still charging $700 up until September of last year for this card. Now it can't keep up with their $330 GPU. Whether it's a lack of driver optimization or an old architecture, something is hurting it's performance - I don't think the expectation was that its performance would tank this hard so quickly. Spin it anyway you want though.

 

[Keysplayr]

November 2013. And sold for $700 until September 2014. Made obsolete pretty quickly no? You can try to spin this as early hardware adopter tax but rarely does anyone expect that the highest end GPU's to take such a performance hit so quickly.

Performace hit? You are impying that a780Ti performs worse today than it did at launch. That is what Performace hit means.
So. Performance hit. A million more dollars. Destroying what they love. Anyone else care to jump on the misinformation exaggeration wagon? Cause that is all im seeing. All pretty much off topic anyway.

 

[Genx87]

There are clearly people on this forum that own 780 Ti's that aren't happy with its performance as of late. NVIDIA was still charging $700 up until September of last year for this card. Now it can't keep up with their $330 GPU. Whether it's a lack of driver optimization or an old architecture, something is hurting it's performance - I don't think the expectation was that its performance would tank this hard so quickly. Spin it anyway you want though.

Yes and what did I say in my previous post? Bleeding edge has a cost that doesnt line up with performance. The 780Ti performing like a 970 was expected. Like all the other top end GPUs that performed like the next gens mid range.

And the 780 Ti performs on par with the 970, sometimes better, sometimes worse. It keeps up with the 970 just fine.

 

[Genx87]

Performace hit? You are impying that a780Ti performs worse today than it did at launch. That is what Performace hit means.
So. Performance hit. A million more dollars. Destroying what they love. Anyone else care to jump on the misinformation exaggeration wagon? Cause that is all im seeing. All pretty much off topic anyway.

I dont really understand his complaint unless he just started following the market last year. Bleeding edge GPUs have always commanded a high premium all the way back to the days of the Voodoo2 and Nvidia Riva TNTs.

 

[Keysplayr]

I dont really understand his complaint unless he just started following the market last year. Bleeding edge GPUs have always commanded a high premium all the way back to the days of the Voodoo2 and Nvidia Riva TNTs.

I know that, and you know that. He may just not want to hear it. So we have to face that and let him think what he wants.