Lets leave Iraq now

[Deudalus]

We need to leave Iraq now. I once supported the war in Iraq, and now I do not and I will explain why.

I supported the war because I felt that the terrorism problems had been avoided up until 9-11 and that success in a war against Islamo-fascism could not be had as long as dictators like Saddam Hussein had power.

It is people like Hussein, that we bought oil from and thus kept in power and supported, that cause young people to become radicalized not because they supported radical Islam but because they by their treatment of their people drove them to it.

The people that make up the westernized world did not care about Afghanistan before, nor after 9-11 because Afghanistan offered nothing to the world. They didn't care about them for the same reasons that we don't care about the genocides in Darfour, the starving and civil war in Somalia, and numerous other civil wars and atrocities throughout the world.

Now Al-Qaeda has moved into Iraq and we brought them there.

Now a terrorist state could sprout on top of the one of the biggest oil reserves in the world and in one of the highest profile Middle Eastern countries.


I for one think it needs to happen. I think it has to happen to force everyone to choose a side in this struggle.

It is plainly obvious that we and our allies can accomplish many great things when we unify such as in WW II. It is also plainly obvious how much more difficult it is to accomplish these great things without our allies.


So I'm being dead serious when I say lets fully leave and let the chips fall where they may. Lets see if Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia change their points of view towards radicalized Muslims when they share a very large border with them.

Lets see how long the French, Spanish, German, and everyone else can stomach seeing the civil war nightly on the news.


We cannot have success in a struggle of this magnitude without everyone believing that we should undertake the struggle. So until we as a nation and our allies in the world are on the same page as to what we should do, let us simply stop and contain the problem.

We containted Russia for decades. We can contain this until all of us either choose to confront it or choose to ignore it again.

 

[Kwaipie]

Well, we can't just "leave" we have 20 brigades over there and to pull them out would take 20 months. We're screwed.

Thanks Bush Cabal.

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: Kwaipie
Well, we can't just "leave" we have 20 brigades over there and to pull them out would take 20 months. We're screwed.

Thanks Bush Cabal.

Actually, it wouldn't take anywhere near that long to withdraw those troops.

Believe me, if we truly wanted the troops out quickly it could happen. We can pull them back within the bases out of harms way and fly them out on C 130's. I dunno where you heard the 20 months but there's no way it would take near that long to get the troops out. Perhaps if you mean a slow draw down followed by an eventual pull out then yes 20 months. Otherwise we could do it much faster.

Also, the current draw-down they are debating in the Senate is quite silly. I heard for a long time that we were losing because we didn't have enough boots on the ground. Now I'm hearing that the troop surge has failed before the General has actually come back to give his report.

I simply think its time to go.

Let's see what happens. Hopefully the Iraqis get their act together but I'm 99% sure that we are going to see very blood, very violent civil war.

I say we wait and see how the international community, the UN, Republicans, and Democrats choose to respond to that civil war afew years down to the road to see how we should respond, if at all. I think the world as well as the US turns a blind eye to civil war and genocide as long as they don't place on top of a certain black colored liquird commodity.

 

[2Xtreme21]

I stopped reading when I got to Islamo-Fascism. Saddam Hussein was not an Islamo-Fascist-- in fact, he repressed the radical Muslim community that we're now seeing enacting the violence against US soldiers and one another. Woops!

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
I stopped reading when I got to Islamo-Fascism. Saddam Hussein was not an Islamo-Fascist-- in fact, he repressed the radical Muslim community that we're now seeing enacting the violence against US soldiers and one another. Woops!

Perhaps one day when you learn to read and comprehend you could come back and join the debate.

Until then, I will surely miss ya.

 

[2Xtreme21]

Originally posted by: Deudalus

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
I stopped reading when I got to Islamo-Fascism. Saddam Hussein was not an Islamo-Fascist-- in fact, he repressed the radical Muslim community that we're now seeing enacting the violence against US soldiers and one another. Woops!

Perhaps one day when you learn to read and comprehend you could come back and join the debate.

Until then, I will surely miss ya.

You're right. I finished your post now and I agree with what you are saying (and apologize for the jump to conclusions). Though I believe that the "chips will fall" by way of a state ruled by these very terrorists we brought in and "unleashed." Iraq was better under Saddam in that it kept these radicalized whackos out of the government and terror organizations like Al Qaeda out. Saddam had the power to snap his fingers and instantly any form of this radicalized Islamo-Fascist ideas would be brutally stamped out. While I obviously don't condone political repression, Saddam Hussein was fighting and containing the very people who caused 9/11. Just leave it to Bush to fuck it up... but hey, he and his cronies got a whole lot richer out of it.

 

[Deudalus]

You're right. I finished your post now and I agree with what you are saying (and apologize for the jump to conclusions). Though I believe that the "chips will fall" by way of a state ruled by these very terrorists we brought in and "unleashed." Iraq was better under Saddam in that it kept these radicalized whackos out of the government and terror organizations like Al Qaeda out.

Therein lies the problem though.

If we leave and Iraq derails into a civil war it will only be a matter of time because the western media covers the atrocities and the bleeding hearts will be asking us to go help out the poor Iraqis. Have you not noticed that the same people who are yelling for us to get out of Iraq are begging us to get into Darfour and in the middle of any of a number of other civil wars?

I'm all for pulling back. Lets go with the Ron Paul method of isolationism. Lets let Bush get out of office and let everything cool down for awhile because its clear no one will get along as long as he is in office. But while we do this lets pay attention to the multi-cultural meccas in western Europe who are passing laws restraining Muslim immigration. Lets take note of everything going on and let our allies get to their boiling point as we did after 9-11 when we took steps that many of us now regret.

It will not take too many bombings in England, riots in France, and Van Gogh stabbings to make our peaceful allies ready to make hard choices too but until that happens we cannot accomplish any real substantial change.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
I stopped reading when I got to Islamo-Fascism. Saddam Hussein was not an Islamo-Fascist-- in fact, he repressed the radical Muslim community that we're now seeing enacting the violence against US soldiers and one another. Woops!

Actually Saddam tried to cultivate ties with the radical Islamic groups. Even held seminars and ?conventions? for them.
Remember that Saddam saw himself as some Arab Hitler who would unite the Arab people in a great war against the west.

But you are right that near the end he started to move away from these groups. I guess he realized that they would eventually come after him as well since he ran a rather secular country.

 

[Wheezer]

We need to leave Iraq now.

You know, the people against this war say that our government learned nothing from Vietnam.

I would also say that people of the mindset of "let's pull out and bring our boys home" also have forgotten Vietnam.

The Killing Fields anyone?

If we just up and pull out now, history will repeat itself and then the U.N. and all the people that are screaming for us to leave....will be begging us to go back and stop it.

Just like they did with Bosnia & Herzegovina and we were not even in that war. But hey, it's ok that we help out there because it was a "clean" war...all we did was drop bombs on the enemy AND innocent people caught in the crossfire.

 

[IEC]

I was against the Iraq war 100% from before it began.

Iraq is yet another shining example of the fruits of our interventionist foreign policy - sure we beat the hell out of standing armies, but once the dust settles everyone hates us and our policies. Enter terrorism. Our FP has been a "miserable failure" (like our President and his cronies) and the blowback (CIA technical term for negative consequences of our policies) we feel is acts of terrorism and hatred of the US Gov't.

Wake up, people. They don't hate Americans or freedom or liberty. They hate our GOVERNMENT and our POLICIES. Don't you think it's about time we showed what America was really about by cleaning up the house and kicking career politicians out?

 

[LcarsSystem]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
I stopped reading when I got to Islamo-Fascism. Saddam Hussein was not an Islamo-Fascist-- in fact, he repressed the radical Muslim community that we're now seeing enacting the violence against US soldiers and one another. Woops!

Actually Saddam tried to cultivate ties with the radical Islamic groups. Even held seminars and ?conventions? for them.
Remember that Saddam saw himself as some Arab Hitler who would unite the Arab people in a great war against the west.

But you are right that near the end he started to move away from these groups. I guess he realized that they would eventually come after him as well since he ran a rather secular country.

LOL...

Saddam hated the radical regimes because they threatened his hold on Iraq. He would have terrorists killed because of this very thing, including Al-Qaeda.

 

[Deudalus]

You know, the people against this war say that our government learned nothing from Vietnam.

I would also say that people of the mindset of "let's pull out and bring our boys home" also have forgotten Vietnam.

The Killing Fields anyone?

If we just up and pull out now, history will repeat itself and then the U.N. and all the people that are screaming for us to leave....will be begging us to go back and stop it.

Just like they did with Bosnia & Herzegovina and we were not even in that war. But hey, it's ok that we help out there because it was a "clean" war...all we did was drop bombs on the enemy AND innocent people caught in the crossfire.

Ohh I remember all of this.

Thats kinda the point of my post.

 

[Narmer]

There is too much money being made in Iraq. The government is borrowing heavily, contractors are making a killing, and the economy is humming along. Getting out of iraq will ruin all of that. We must stay until we achieve victory or until defense spending reaches ONE TRILLION dollars.

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: Deudalus

You know, the people against this war say that our government learned nothing from Vietnam.

I would also say that people of the mindset of "let's pull out and bring our boys home" also have forgotten Vietnam.

The Killing Fields anyone?

If we just up and pull out now, history will repeat itself and then the U.N. and all the people that are screaming for us to leave....will be begging us to go back and stop it.

Just like they did with Bosnia & Herzegovina and we were not even in that war. But hey, it's ok that we help out there because it was a "clean" war...all we did was drop bombs on the enemy AND innocent people caught in the crossfire.

Ohh I remember all of this.

Thats kinda the point of my post.

It's sad really, a majority of those that want us out have absolutely no idea the horror that awaits the people of that country if we up and leave....right now it is like the wild west (keep in mind the west was won)...we leave it will the genocide if WWII.

Personally I agree, lets bring the troops home, not because soldiers are dying...that will happen, but because the Iraqi people and the people if the Mid-east have had centuries improve their lives and have not.

They have no interest in taking a stand and stepping into the 21st century...then leave them there...bring the soldiers home and put them on the Mexican border...that is more of a security issue than anything else.

 

[IEC]

Originally posted by: Narmer
There is too much money being made in Iraq. The government is borrowing heavily, contractors are making a killing, and the economy is humming along. Getting out of iraq will ruin all of that. We must stay until we achieve victory or until defense spending reaches ONE TRILLION dollars.

Own a bit of GD and FRPT, do ya? 😉

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner

Originally posted by: Narmer
There is too much money being made in Iraq. The government is borrowing heavily, contractors are making a killing, and the economy is humming along. Getting out of iraq will ruin all of that. We must stay until we achieve victory or until defense spending reaches ONE TRILLION dollars.

Own a bit of GD and FRPT, do ya? 😉

I don't know how long this gravy train will last, so jump on while it's hot. While other can argue the finer points of Iran, GWOT and al qaeda, all I can say is this: Terrorism has been good for America.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: LcarsSystem

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
I stopped reading when I got to Islamo-Fascism. Saddam Hussein was not an Islamo-Fascist-- in fact, he repressed the radical Muslim community that we're now seeing enacting the violence against US soldiers and one another. Woops!

Actually Saddam tried to cultivate ties with the radical Islamic groups. Even held seminars and ?conventions? for them.
Remember that Saddam saw himself as some Arab Hitler who would unite the Arab people in a great war against the west.

But you are right that near the end he started to move away from these groups. I guess he realized that they would eventually come after him as well since he ran a rather secular country.

LOL...

Saddam hated the radical regimes because they threatened his hold on Iraq. He would have terrorists killed because of this very thing, including Al-Qaeda.

From wiki
Just prior to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, Saddam turned to religion perhaps to bolster his government (for example, adding the words "God is Great" in Arabic to the flag, and referring to God in his speeches). After Saddam lost the Gulf War, he identified more closely with Islam by hosting international conferences and broadcasting Islamic sermons on national radio. In 1994, Saddam began his "Faith Campaign" in which he began to build mosques, changed laws to outlaw public drinking, required Baathist officials to attend prayers and held Quran reciting competitions.

Saddam was a conniving SOB and did a lot of things in order to keep and maintain his power. While everyone seems to agree that there was no working relationship between Saddam and AQ it is not hard to imagine Saddam and AQ working together under the right circumstances. Given the right time and place I am sure Saddam would have helped AQ, as long as it helped Saddam at the same time.

Everyone knew that Iran and the Taliban hated each other, and yet recent evidence shows that Iran may actually be helping the Taliban with weapons and support.

Hell? the US and Russia went from being allies in 1945 to beginning a 40 year long ?cold war? just two years later.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: LcarsSystem

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21
I stopped reading when I got to Islamo-Fascism. Saddam Hussein was not an Islamo-Fascist-- in fact, he repressed the radical Muslim community that we're now seeing enacting the violence against US soldiers and one another. Woops!

Actually Saddam tried to cultivate ties with the radical Islamic groups. Even held seminars and ?conventions? for them.
Remember that Saddam saw himself as some Arab Hitler who would unite the Arab people in a great war against the west.

But you are right that near the end he started to move away from these groups. I guess he realized that they would eventually come after him as well since he ran a rather secular country.

LOL...

Saddam hated the radical regimes because they threatened his hold on Iraq. He would have terrorists killed because of this very thing, including Al-Qaeda.

From wiki
Just prior to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, Saddam turned to religion perhaps to bolster his government (for example, adding the words "God is Great" in Arabic to the flag, and referring to God in his speeches). After Saddam lost the Gulf War, he identified more closely with Islam by hosting international conferences and broadcasting Islamic sermons on national radio. In 1994, Saddam began his "Faith Campaign" in which he began to build mosques, changed laws to outlaw public drinking, required Baathist officials to attend prayers and held Quran reciting competitions.

Saddam was a conniving SOB and did a lot of things in order to keep and maintain his power. While everyone seems to agree that there was no working relationship between Saddam and AQ it is not hard to imagine Saddam and AQ working together under the right circumstances. Given the right time and place I am sure Saddam would have helped AQ, as long as it helped Saddam at the same time.

Everyone knew that Iran and the Taliban hated each other, and yet recent evidence shows that Iran may actually be helping the Taliban with weapons and support.

Hell? the US and Russia went from being allies in 1945 to beginning a 40 year long ?cold war? just two years later.

Yes but all that was just a means by which he kept popular opinion up. It works here when a president acts religious, so why do you see it differently? Don't you find it funny how after the whole "sanctions thing" arose (Which is supposed to create unrest in a country, too bad it always backfires) the level of religious zeal began to rise? If he can't talk about how great the non existent economy is, or that rationing will have to go a step further, atleast he can show off that he is religious to keep opinion up.
Religion was on Saddam's terms, and it wasn't till the 90s that this religiousity became apparent, and conveniently in time to counter a lot of the other "bad things" that surrounded him.
To pair AQ and Saddam together is a REAL stretch like you say...and if you are sure that "given the right circumstances and time things might have been different"...well I could easily say that given the right time and place [insert far fetched scenario here].

 

[ProfJohn]

Magomago, it was a real stretch to think that Iran and the Taliban would ever work together, yet they are.
Remember the saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is in fact an Arab saying.

Hell... Saddam tried to save his airforce at the start of the Gulf war by flying the planes to Iran... who knows what else Saddam would have done...

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

We need to leave Iraq now.

You know, the people against this war say that our government learned nothing from Vietnam.

I would also say that people of the mindset of "let's pull out and bring our boys home" also have forgotten Vietnam.

The Killing Fields anyone?

If we just up and pull out now, history will repeat itself and then the U.N. and all the people that are screaming for us to leave....will be begging us to go back and stop it.

Just like they did with Bosnia & Herzegovina and we were not even in that war. But hey, it's ok that we help out there because it was a "clean" war...all we did was drop bombs on the enemy AND innocent people caught in the crossfire.




Except "The Killing Fields" were in Cambodia, not Vietnam, and it was our former enemies, The North Vietnamese that put a stop to it.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Deudalus
Have you not noticed that the same people who are yelling for us to get out of Iraq are begging us to get into Darfour and in the middle of any of a number of other civil wars?

That right there, folks, is the ultimate ironic truth. :thumbsup:

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: feralkid

Originally posted by: Wheezer

We need to leave Iraq now.

You know, the people against this war say that our government learned nothing from Vietnam.

I would also say that people of the mindset of "let's pull out and bring our boys home" also have forgotten Vietnam.

The Killing Fields anyone?

If we just up and pull out now, history will repeat itself and then the U.N. and all the people that are screaming for us to leave....will be begging us to go back and stop it.

Just like they did with Bosnia & Herzegovina and we were not even in that war. But hey, it's ok that we help out there because it was a "clean" war...all we did was drop bombs on the enemy AND innocent people caught in the crossfire.




Except "The Killing Fields" were in Cambodia, not Vietnam, and it was our former enemies, The North Vietnamese that put a stop to it.

I see, so then what you suggest is that we pull out..leave them standing high and dry the way we did in Afghanistan (which pissed them off)..let the people die and hope that our enemy will put a stop to it instead of blaming us for it.