You must have forgot our idustrial base is the largest in the world. What we dont consume here is exported to the tune of about 1 trillion dollars worth. Germany is the only other nation that is anywhere as much an exporter as we are.
Like I said, you guys are great! If we're such a prolific exporter, why is our trade deficit pushing a trillion dollars?
Why? If we can get the product cheapers by importing it why is that sad?
It makes our economy more efficient by doing it this way.
Yes, its really great that capital is flowing out of the country and not returning. That is what is happening, after all. If the capital was returning, there wouldn't be a deficit. Is there any wonder why we have to borrow from the Chinese to fight our wars?
If we create more wealth it doesnt matter.
Which is why we import certain items instead of making it here. It is more efficient to import and will generate a higher return.
Yeah, we're create about creating wealth...for the already wealthy. They're the only ones who see a "higher return"...the rest of us just see higher property taxes and gas prices.
LOL... the middle classes and upper middle classes were created after WWII, before Reagannomics, before offshoring, before our suicidal trade policies. Those classes were created by businesses who offered solid middle class wages for honest work. Those businesses don't do that anymore, replacing their American middle class workers with cheap foreign labor. Americans are left to work at Wally-world.
Ahh your mean an open market?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
So why do you think an open market worked then and is a disaster now?
Starbuck1975
Lifer
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With the exception being that the current European economic business model is not sustainable for growth. The formation of the EU, and introduction of the Euro, was a huge economic milestone for Europe...no question about it...but it has also thrown the cost of living index across Europe out of whack, because the health of every European nation was not equivalent across the board...things may be fine and dandy for economic powerhouses like Germany or France, but nations like Italy and Greece continue to struggle, and may ultimately drag the Euro down.
Europe is facing a crisis in that its native populations are not reproducing, and their citizens are not pursuing education in fields typically required for economic growth in key technology markets. Europe is actually importing middle class professionals at an alarming rate, which is also fueling increased sentiments of xenophobia.
I am not saying the American economic model is perfect...but the European model is far from perfect, and culturally, socialism simply does not work in the context of the American cultural landscape.
Because the "open market" then contained mostly Americans, same cost of living, similar wages, etc. The "open market" now includes the entire world with totally different standards of living, wages, environmental laws, etc. The nature of some of these countries gives them an absolute advantage not a comparative advantage in most things. China is on such country. Name one job that doesn't require a physical presence that can't be done cheaper in China?
Big business takes advantage of this by making product in China for next to nothing then selling it here at a tremendous markup. Americans no longer make the product, but get to buy the product in Wal-mart on Wallyworld wages. Great times for execs, not so great for most of us.
Sounds like America with our zealous importation of illegal immigrants and H1-B/L-1 workers to replace American workers.
Please do you think our nation created all of its wealth simply by trading internally?
This is a strawman argument and not based in reality at all. Free markets will raise the standard of living for anybody within the market. Just because we are now importing more doesnt all of a sudden mean our economy is going to collapse.
The bottom line is the only difference between then and now is we are becoming so efficient in our internal economy we outsource production of the less efficient items, shredding costs, and returning higher margins that will help fuel higher paying jobs and higher return on investments.
Throwing up walls and becoming self contained didnt work for the Soviets, what makes you think it will work for us?
Two systems, one succeded, one failed miserably. Yet we are supposed to pick the system that failed?
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
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Illegal immigrants are largely taking up menial labor jobs...mostly blue collar.
The same dynamic is same in Europe, except their blue collar workers tend to be Turkish, Algerian, Eastern European, etc.
The more alarming trend is that Europe is also importing middle class, educated workers, to fill shortages in critical engineering jobs...this is a more alarming development.
You say that like its no big deal. How many people do you know that aren't going to become educated anytime soon? There are millions of Americans who need blue collar jobs....like most Americans who are on welfare.
I'm sure trade with Europe, Japan, and Australia factored into our wealth creation, but a lot of what was done was building American infrastructure.
Sounds like a faith-based argument to me.
Where are these higher paying jobs? Oh yeah, the profits are being funnelled into executive pockets, not the peons and serfs. Well, except for the Japanese automakers....they actually take care of their American workers.
Who said anything about throwing up walls? I only want to see reasonable tarriffs on goods from 3rd world countries until they implement the same kind of labor and environmental protections that 1st world countries do. I'm sick of Chinese goods being cheaper because they can dump industrial waste in their rivers, force their children to work long hours, and not allow anyone a say in government.
Not at all. And as I noted before, the world isn't the same place it was in the '50s. We ought to protect what's ours and make sure that all Americans can have a taste of the American dream, if they're willing to work for it. Right now, its a lot harder than it used to be to acheive that level of economic stability.
Nothing wrong with Wal-mart's jobs, just the wages and benefits, you know the stuff that matters to the worker and hated by the CEO?
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
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And there are plenty of blue collar jobs available...I have lost count of how many help wanted signs I typically pass on the way to work, mostly at fast food or other service industry type establishments.
Illegal aliens are streaming into this country largely because these jobs are readily available.
Benefits and wages should be comperable to the job skills someone brings to the table...I am sorry, but a 50k salary and full medical coverage is a bit excessive for a job that doesn't even require a high school education.
Minimum wage is sufficient to sustain a modest lifestyle...the problem is that Americans have become too excessive in their spending habits...households do not require big screen televisions, Playstations, two cars, etc...Americans today expect the big payoff and instant gratification...the concept of fiscal responsibility and savings is dead.
Then why aren't we having people who are freeloading on welfare doing those jobs? Why do we need illegals to do those jobs? This is a golden opportunity for the Repubs to further reform welfare and to do something about the illegal alien problem.
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
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Largely because of incentives...why bust your ass doing a blue collar job when the government will provide everything you need to survive...illegals take these jobs mostly because they do not otherwise have access to such benefits.
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Free markets will raise the standard of living for anybody within the market.
I couldn't let this pass. That's absurd. If you take a country where workers are rich and integrate the labor pools with a country that is poor everyone will end up at the same level, in a free market and all other things being equal.
What you are arguing for is a striking loss of income for American workers.
Your argument only makes sense AFTER the workers wages has been equalized and ASSUMES there are inefficiencies that can be corrected by the larger workforce with different strenghts and weaknesses.
As to the creation of the middle class it was a result of four things:
The Great Depression
Communism and Socialism
FDR and his policies.
WW2
What really changed to create the middle class out of the depression was a shift of the proportion of wealth towards the working class. This was prompted by worker discontent during the Depression where workers looked for a system that would benefit them more and were enticed by Communism and Socialism. Then FDR moved to give workers more power in dealing with the ownership class by using things like labor unions. When WW2 ended the greater worker power was able to get a decent share of the fruits of their labor by the artificially skewed great wealth that America acquired as a result of the war and the unnatural lack of manpower in the only functioning industrialized country.
What is going on now is that Communism and Socialism have been discredited. The great wealth of America is draining. There are dozens of thriving industrialized countries. Trade barriers are being lowered. The pool of labor is now world wide so the power of the American worker to get a share of the fruits of their labor is diminished.
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