Lets go burn some books!

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zinfamous

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,950
31,487
146
Zebo said:
Except you already said you hope people burn Bibles. But cowards are never consistent they seek safety, it's normal don't feel bad. I am against burning. Much better to read it and get informed but it's their right just like burning flags, bibles and whatnot is. It's a freedom unique in this world and lots of blood spent to achieve worth defending IMO.
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again, the reason I said that they should do it is such that other idiots can show up and antagonize these idiots by doing essentially the same thing. I honestly don't expect these Floridian Christian soldiers to sit back and say "well see, as a Christian and an American, I can sit back and let you burn that book, and forgive you for doing it!" Fuck no, they won't react that way, certainly not if the speech of rev whatisface is to be believed.

i agree with all that you're saying, but it really amounts to burning of such things just shows to others that such people are idiots.

I've already said it's their right (here, at least) to burn a text. Just as it's some others rights to burn some other religious text. I also think that in this situation where such act is simply an act of antagonism, that others should show up and throw the same sort of stupid antagonism in their faces.

What's wrong with that?
 
R

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Jaskalas said:
If Catholics and Christians issued death threats over it, would military Generals and the Left join them in solidarity?
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Generals and "the Left" issued death threats or supported people who do?

These discussions are largely pointless because there are clearly two very different worldviews at work here. In your worldview, everyone can be broadly divided into large groups, and everyone in those large groups are totally interchangable and responsible for the actions of any other member of the group. Thus, if SOME people who are offended by Koran burning issue death threats, ALL people who are offended are issuing death threats.

On the other hand, I tend to prefer the worldview that treats everyone as individuals who are responsible for their own actions and beliefs. If someone issues a death threat over book burning, he's an asshole who we'd be better off without. If someone else is offended by book burning and expresses that offense in a reasonable manner, I'm cool with that, and I don't condemn him for the things the first guy said or did. See the difference?
 
Jaskalas

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,175
10,475
136
Rainsford said:
Generals and "the Left" issued death threats or supported people who do?
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They would be telling those who burn bibles that they should not / cannot do so. It seems all the followers of that book have to do to earn such esteem is to turn savage and start killing people.

These discussions are largely pointless because there are clearly two very different worldviews at work here. In your worldview, everyone can be broadly divided into large groups, and everyone in those large groups are totally interchangable and responsible for the actions of any other member of the group. Thus, if SOME people who are offended by Koran burning issue death threats, ALL people who are offended are issuing death threats.
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Generalities are used for the sake of reading. As for death threats and what not. This discussion seems to resolve around the ensuing violence - not over those who are truly peaceful. To what purpose do you bring them into the discussion?

Back to my point. One group above all others becomes a concern. You know why this is, but that is the point. If the religions ARE equal, then they should be treated equally. There should not be one that is above reproach and insult. To do so sends a message to the others on what they must do to earn this respect.

That is unless there is bias towards one religion in particular, and the others would not be met with the same respect in response to their violent threats.

So which is it? Should Islam not be treated as a sacred cow, or should the others join them in using violence to bring you into submission?
 
A

ArchAngel777

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
5,223
61
91
I see a trend here... We have people saying violent muslims just need to be educated, and there is very little outcry for their violence. They just need a hug, or just need to be educated, or just need to be shown how to be peaceful.

Then from these same people, we have utterly hately and spiteful words at these christians people who want to burn the Quran. But somehow, these same people don't want to give them a hug, educate them or show them how to be peaceful by their own actions.

I find myself scratching my head here... So, we can make fun of Christianity, but not Islam. I get it, but why?

And most Christians are outright condemning the actions of this pastor. But, I guess that doesn't count. I don't see many in Islam condemning the actions of these 'extremist few' in their own religion... Seems like a blatent double standard to me. Whatever...

Fact is, those with left side politics are going to be the ones to suffer if this thing ever turns into a holy war... Most of the extremists have no tolerance for women rights, for homosexuals or anything they deem as evil... They will cut you guys down. I hope it never comes to that, but it is something to consider. Hoping for change is a 'good' thing, but 'expecting' that change is something entirely different...

I guess I would like to ask everyone here who cares of these 'extremist' people, would you be willing to give up your life for them in the even that it comes to it? It is easy to say you would, but if one has a gun pointed at your head and you had the ability to kill your captor, would you? Or would you try and reason? Just curious... Human Instinct kicks in anyway, so I doubt very much that I would believe anyone who would say anything other than kill your captor.
 
sandorski

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,826
6,374
126
ArchAngel777 said:
I see a trend here... We have people saying violent muslims just need to be educated, and there is very little outcry for their violence. They just need a hug, or just need to be educated, or just need to be shown how to be peaceful.

Then from these same people, we have utterly hately and spiteful words at these christians people who want to burn the Quran. But somehow, these same people don't want to give them a hug, educate them or show them how to be peaceful by their own actions.

I find myself scratching my head here... So, we can make fun of Christianity, but not Islam. I get it, but why?

And most Christians are outright condemning the actions of this pastor. But, I guess that doesn't count. I don't see many in Islam condemning the actions of these 'extremist few' in their own religion... Seems like a blatent double standard to me. Whatever...

Fact is, those with left side politics are going to be the ones to suffer if this thing ever turns into a holy war... Most of the extremists have no tolerance for women rights, for homosexuals or anything they deem as evil... They will cut you guys down. I hope it never comes to that, but it is something to consider. Hoping for change is a 'good' thing, but 'expecting' that change is something entirely different...

I guess I would like to ask everyone here who cares of these 'extremist' people, would you be willing to give up your life for them in the even that it comes to it? It is easy to say you would, but if one has a gun pointed at your head and you had the ability to kill your captor, would you? Or would you try and reason? Just curious... Human Instinct kicks in anyway, so I doubt very much that I would believe anyone who would say anything other than kill your captor.
Click to expand...

So many Words, so much Fail.
 
WelshBloke

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,392
11,536
136
ArchAngel777 said:
I see a trend here... We have people saying violent muslims just need to be educated, and there is very little outcry for their violence. They just need a hug, or just need to be educated, or just need to be shown how to be peaceful.

Then from these same people, we have utterly hately and spiteful words at these christians people who want to burn the Quran. But somehow, these same people don't want to give them a hug, educate them or show them how to be peaceful by their own actions.

I find myself scratching my head here... So, we can make fun of Christianity, but not Islam. I get it, but why?

And most Christians are outright condemning the actions of this pastor. But, I guess that doesn't count. I don't see many in Islam condemning the actions of these 'extremist few' in their own religion... Seems like a blatent double standard to me. Whatever...

Fact is, those with left side politics are going to be the ones to suffer if this thing ever turns into a holy war... Most of the extremists have no tolerance for women rights, for homosexuals or anything they deem as evil... They will cut you guys down. I hope it never comes to that, but it is something to consider. Hoping for change is a 'good' thing, but 'expecting' that change is something entirely different...

I guess I would like to ask everyone here who cares of these 'extremist' people, would you be willing to give up your life for them in the even that it comes to it? It is easy to say you would, but if one has a gun pointed at your head and you had the ability to kill your captor, would you? Or would you try and reason? Just curious... Human Instinct kicks in anyway, so I doubt very much that I would believe anyone who would say anything other than kill your captor.
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We have just finished invading and occupying a couple of majority Muslim nations.

We are now trying to make a workable peace in these nations, and convince them that they can trust those in the West.

Brain dead idiots like the Pastor in the OP are really not helping.
 
Jaskalas

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,175
10,475
136
WelshBloke said:
We have just finished invading and occupying a couple of majority Muslim nations.

We are now trying to make a workable peace in these nations, and convince them that they can trust those in the West.

Brain dead idiots like the Pastor in the OP are really not helping.
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You think having our military in Muslim nations killing Muslims is helping, but you damn that little Church for what it does in Florida? It's sheer stupidity then, that drives you against western freedom.
 
R

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Jaskalas said:
They would be telling those who burn bibles that they should not / cannot do so. It seems all the followers of that book have to do to earn such esteem is to turn savage and start killing people.
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Is there a well publicized story of people burning bibles in this country?
Generalities are used for the sake of reading. As for death threats and what not. This discussion seems to resolve around the ensuing violence - not over those who are truly peaceful. To what purpose do you bring them into the discussion?
Click to expand...
Because a lot of the argument on this topic suggest those people don't exist, if not with words than by implication. The koran is burned, SOME people go apeshit, and pundits get to say that "they" are issuing death threats. "They" of course being shorthand for all Muslims...
Back to my point. One group above all others becomes a concern. You know why this is, but that is the point. If the religions ARE equal, then they should be treated equally. There should not be one that is above reproach and insult. To do so sends a message to the others on what they must do to earn this respect.

That is unless there is bias towards one religion in particular, and the others would not be met with the same respect in response to their violent threats.

So which is it? Should Islam not be treated as a sacred cow, or should the others join them in using violence to bring you into submission?
Click to expand...

Not treating Islam as a "sacred cow" would hardly be treating all religions equally, not with the way Christianity is treated in this country. Here we have outrage over burning the Muslim holy book, not only would there be epic outrage over doing that to the bible, but nobody even has to do THAT to get the punditry up in arms. Saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merrry Christmas" seems to offend a surprisingly large number of people for some reason...doesn't that make Christianity even more of a "sacred cow"?

You seem to think that going out of our way to piss off all Muslims is good because it shows the radicals that they don't have power over us. But it ALSO shows the non-radicals that they're second class citizens in this country, which seems like cutting off our nose to spite our face.
 
R

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
ArchAngel777 said:
I see a trend here... We have people saying violent muslims just need to be educated, and there is very little outcry for their violence. They just need a hug, or just need to be educated, or just need to be shown how to be peaceful.

Then from these same people, we have utterly hately and spiteful words at these christians people who want to burn the Quran. But somehow, these same people don't want to give them a hug, educate them or show them how to be peaceful by their own actions.

I find myself scratching my head here... So, we can make fun of Christianity, but not Islam. I get it, but why?

And most Christians are outright condemning the actions of this pastor. But, I guess that doesn't count. I don't see many in Islam condemning the actions of these 'extremist few' in their own religion... Seems like a blatent double standard to me. Whatever...

Fact is, those with left side politics are going to be the ones to suffer if this thing ever turns into a holy war... Most of the extremists have no tolerance for women rights, for homosexuals or anything they deem as evil... They will cut you guys down. I hope it never comes to that, but it is something to consider. Hoping for change is a 'good' thing, but 'expecting' that change is something entirely different...

I guess I would like to ask everyone here who cares of these 'extremist' people, would you be willing to give up your life for them in the even that it comes to it? It is easy to say you would, but if one has a gun pointed at your head and you had the ability to kill your captor, would you? Or would you try and reason? Just curious... Human Instinct kicks in anyway, so I doubt very much that I would believe anyone who would say anything other than kill your captor.
Click to expand...

Is it worth considering that allowing a small, radical minority to shape all your thoughts and actions might not be a good idea? Every time the topic of Islam comes up, people like you always start and end with what the radicals will think or do, totally ignoring the fact that said radicals aren't the only Muslims out there.

Edit: And the worst part is that you start to believe that the radicals really ARE the only Muslims out there, so you end up concocting this ridiculous fantasy world where the barbarian hordes are breaking down the gates of our fair country, apparently forgetting that the reason the radicals resort to terrorism is because they don't have tanks or armies and they couldn't take over a small town, much less the entire country.
 
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O

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,596
25
81
OutHouse

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
OCNewbie said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCOMET View Post
WSJ
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...DDLETopStories
Bloomberg Defends Pastor's Right to Burn Quran

He talks about it being a Free speech issue and thats why he supports their right to burn the book. Although Mayor Bloomberg goes on to say that its probably not the smartest thing in the world to do and please think of our soldiers in Middle East.
I wholeheartedly agree with this view on the whole issue.
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as do I.

Also, Hillary needs to keep her sewer shut along with everybody in the white-house on this issue.
 
WelshBloke

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,392
11,536
136
Jaskalas said:
You think having our military in Muslim nations killing Muslims is helping, but you damn that little Church for what it does in Florida? It's sheer stupidity then, that drives you against western freedom.
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How am I against "western freedom™"?

That pastor is free to burn his books, I'm free to criticise him, and you're free to make an ass of yourself by assuming too much.
 
F

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
WelshBloke said:
How am I against "western freedom™"?

That pastor is free to burn his books, I'm free to criticise him, and you're free to make an ass of yourself by assuming too much.
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I wish that same process applied to people criticizing the mosque. Except those people were labeled as bigots and against the constitution.
 
O

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,596
25
81
I'm not generally a conspiracy theorist, but does anybody else think this whole thing could have been staged with the intent to cancel the burning at the last moment in an attempt to "look good" to Muslims abroad?

Edit: When I say "look good", I mean as in the whole country looking good, since the whole country was going to look bad had this thing developed to the point it was supposedly planned to. Again, I'm not into conspiracies generally, but when this thing first caught my ear, I already envisioned an outcome of this guy changing his plans at the last moment, after all the newsmakers (General, President, etc.) criticized it in as public a manner as possible. Now of course, the cancellation is going to be worldwide news as well.
 
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her209

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
OCNewbie said:
I'm not generally a conspiracy theorist, but does anybody else think this whole thing could have been staged with the intent to cancel the burning at the last moment in an attempt to "look good" to Muslims abroad?
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Well, considering there's copycat Quran burnings, I'd say he failed miserably if that was his goal.
 
O

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
7,596
25
81
her209 said:
Well, considering there's copycat Quran burnings, I'd say he failed miserably if that was his goal.
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Yeah, but will those copycats get the worldwide coverage this guy was getting?

Edited my original post too.
 
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