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Let's build one and see.

techs

Lifer
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/21/national/21coal.html?pagewanted=print
HELENA, Mont., Nov. 15 - If the vast, empty plain of eastern Montana is the Saudi Arabia of coal, then Gov. Brian Schweitzer, a prairie populist with a bolo tie and an advanced degree in soil science, may be its Lawrence.

Rarely a day goes by that he does not lash out against the "sheiks, dictators, rats and crooks" who control the world oil supply or the people he calls their political handmaidens, "the best Congress that Big Oil can buy."

Governor Schweitzer, a Democrat, has a two-fisted idea for energy independence that he carries around with him. In one fist is a shank of Montana coal, black and hard. In the other fist is a vial of nearly odorless clear liquid - a synthetic fuel that came from the coal and could run cars, jets and trucks or heat homes without contributing to global warming or setting off a major fight with environmental groups, he said.

"Smell that," Mr. Schweitzer said, thrusting his vial of fuel under the noses of interested observers here in the capital, where he works in jeans with a border collie underfoot. "You hardly smell anything. This is a clean fuel, converted from coal by a chemical process. We can produce enough of this in Montana to power every American car for decades."

Coal-to-fuel conversion, which was practiced out of necessity by pariah nations like Nazi Germany and South Africa under apartheid, has been around for more than 80 years. It is called the Fischer-Tropsch process. What is new is the technology that removes and stores the pollutants during and after the making of synthetic fuel; add to that high oil prices, which have suddenly made this form of energy alchemy feasible. The coal could be converted into gasoline or diesel, which would run cars, or into other types of fuel.

With coal reserves of about 120 billion tons, Montana has one-third of the nation's total and a tenth of the global amount. Most of it is just under the prairie grass in the depopulated ranch country of eastern Montana. Mr. Schweitzer wants to plant coal-to-fuel factories in towns that have one foot in the grave. It may not provide enough fuel to wean the West off imported oil, but it may be enough to show the rest of the country that there is another way, he said.

"This country has no energy plan, no vision for the future," said Mr. Schweitzer, who spent seven years in Saudi Arabia on irrigation projects. "We give more tax breaks and money for oil, and what do we get? Three-dollar gas and wars in the Middle East. If you want to control the destiny of this country, it's going to be with synthetic fuels."

For now, the governor's ideas are just speculative. Although several energy companies have expressed interest in building coal-to-fuel plants, no sites have been chosen or projects announced. Because it would be such a novel, financially risky undertaking, companies have been hesitant to go the next step. But Mr. Schweitzer hopes for a breakthrough, with several plants up and running within 10 years, and he says he does not need legislative approval to give the go-ahead if companies commit.

The governor has met with the president of Shell Oil, the chairman of General Electric and other captains of big energy, as well as with smaller companies that develop synthetic fuels.

"This is not a pipe dream," said Jack Holmes, the president and chief executive of Syntroleum, an Oklahoma company that has a small synthetic fuels plant and wants to build something bigger. "What's exciting about this process is you don't have to drill any wells and you don't have to build any infrastructure, and you'd be putting these plants in the heartland of America, where you really need the jobs."

Certainly jobs are a big motivating factor. Montana is a poor state and ranks last in average wages. Mr. Schweitzer, whose approval rating is near 70 percent, says thousands of good-wage jobs can be gained in towns that are dying.

He is also promoting wind energy and the use of biofuels, using oil from crops like soybeans as a blend. The governor signed a measure this year that requires Montana to get 10 percent of its energy from wind power by 2010, a goal he said would be reached within a few years. Still, the Big Sky State, with a population under a million, has fewer people than the average metro area of a midsize American city, and its influence is limited. The governor acknowledged as much.

"I'm just a soil scientist trying to get people in Washington, D.C., to take the cotton out of their ears," Mr. Schweitzer said with somewhat practiced modesty. "But if we can change the world in Montana, why not try it?"

By some estimates, the United States has enough coal to take care of its energy needs for 800 years. The new, cleaner technology stores the pollutants in the ground or processes them for other uses.

The United States imports about 13 million barrels of oil a day. To replace that oil would be a monumental undertaking, with hundreds of coal-to-fuel plants. But Mr. Schweitzer points to South Africa, where a single 50-year-old plant provides 28 percent of the nation's supplies of diesel, petrol and kerosene. But the South African plant uses old technology that does not remove the pollutants.

In this country there is a small factory in North Dakota that converts coal to natural gas. And Pennsylvania is moving forward on a plan to produce diesel from coal. Neither of these plants would come close to the scale of the plants Mr. Schweitzer is envisioning in Montana, where it would cost upward of $7 billion to build a plant that could turn out 150,000 barrels of synthetic fuel a day, for about $35 a barrel.

One surprising thing, thus far, is that many people in the environmental community have not rejected the coal-to-fuel idea out of hand. Environmentalists like the process for producing clean fuels from coal. They say the technology is there and it can be done in coal-rich empty quarters of eastern Montana, North Dakota or Wyoming.

Still, they worry about strip mining the ranch country and about whether there will be a global commitment to make synthetic fuels the clean way rather than in a dirtier way along the lines of a plan in China, where the government has joined with major global oil companies to build about a dozen coal-to-fuel plants.

"It's a very interesting moment in energy history," said Ralph Cavanagh, an energy policy expert at the Natural Resources Defense Council, one of the nation's most powerful environmental groups. "Certainly this process can be done. This is a promising direction. The question is, Are we going to do it clean?"

Because there is no federal mandate to process coal in a way that reduces the emissions that can cause global warming, Mr. Cavanagh says he fears that any new coal operations will simply add new pollutants to the atmosphere. Coal plants without the cleaning technology are the biggest source of man-made carbon dioxide, a gas that is considered a central contributor to the warming of the earth, according to many studies.

There is another problem as well. Some Montana ranchers and environmentalists who fought big coal-mining proposals in the 1970's are worried about what new mining will do to the grasslands.

"The governor's idea is a big one," said Helen Waller, a farmer who is active with the Northern Plains Resource Council, a Montana environmental group. "I'm not sure it's the best one. I don't think there's any such thing as clean coal. And even if there were, it would require a lot of productive ranchland to be ripped up."

Mr. Schweitzer said the mining could be done in a way that restored the land afterward. "I call it deep farming," he said. "You take away the top eight inches of soil, remove the seam of coal, and then put the topsoil back in."

But given Montana's history of abuse by mining companies - the giant open-pit mine in Butte is the most visible legacy of a bygone era - some Montanans remain skeptical.

"I just think there's a better way that doesn't involve tearing up productive ranchland," Ms. Waller said.

The short version is there is a tested process to turn coal into an oil substitute that is very clean with the coal impurities being taken out and stored safely. The cost per barrel of oil produced is 35.00. Yet no company will build a plant.
Lets build one of these and see how well it works.
 
Actually I think there are several coal to liquids/gas plants on the drawing board at this point. As long as oil stays above 30/barre and natural gas stays expensivel there should be more of these popping up.
 
a synthetic fuel that came from the coal and could run cars, jets and trucks or heat homes without contributing to global warming

I'm calling BS on that claim. Assuming the theory on global warming is true then this coal to synthetic fuel will produce CO2 when burned and there for global warming.
 
Originally posted by: smack Down
a synthetic fuel that came from the coal and could run cars, jets and trucks or heat homes without contributing to global warming

I'm calling BS on that claim. Assuming the theory on global warming is true then this coal to synthetic fuel will produce CO2 when burned and there for global warming.



Synfuel is a cleaner fuel than oil based gas. Also during the refining process some of the carbon can be captured and is fairly easy to sequester at this point.
 
IIRC, there has been much talk lately about expanded use of coal liquefaction.

I'd like to know where they plan to sequester all the CO2 that will be produced. Also, I think the article's estimate of how long the coal reserves would last is several hundred years too long from what I have read.

Now that it seems oil prices will remain at near current levels companies will start to invest in the technology.
 
I would think that the biggest obstacle is not raping montana in the process.
there should be several small projects allowed to prove the land can be restored to its original state and then standards adopted so that they repair the land as they go balancing need with common sense.
 
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: smack Down
a synthetic fuel that came from the coal and could run cars, jets and trucks or heat homes without contributing to global warming

I'm calling BS on that claim. Assuming the theory on global warming is true then this coal to synthetic fuel will produce CO2 when burned and there for global warming.



Synfuel is a cleaner fuel than oil based gas. Also during the refining process some of the carbon can be captured and is fairly easy to sequester at this point.

But all the energy is in the carbon and hydrogen bonds.
 
First, this governor guy isn't real bright. It's patently false to say that these fuels won't contribute to global warming (if one assumes that global warming is a result of CO2 emissions), as combusting a hydrocarbon-based fuel will ALWAYS yield carbon dioxide. It doesn't smell like much, so it's a clean fuel? Also wrong. Odors are typically indicative of sulfurous compounds, which aren't typically considered 'dirty,' nor are their combustion products.

That said, if coal liquefaction is implemented on a broad basis in the US, our hands will no longer need to be in the pockets of foreign oil. Including our coal reserves, the US has more oil equivalent stores than the rest of the world combined. I'm all for widespread implementation of this process. I just hate to see people toot its horn for more than it is, as it won't improve the environmental impact of burning gasoline at all.
Originally posted by: charrison
Synfuel is a cleaner fuel than oil based gas. Also during the refining process some of the carbon can be captured and is fairly easy to sequester at this point.
Uh, the carbon is the power source. If you want to 'sequester' it to reduce environmental impact, I assume you mean that you won't be combusting it. Thus, you have essentially just turned all of your coal into graphite, thereby actually losing energy.

It's also incorrect to say that synfuel is cleaner than oil-based gas. 'Synfuel' is not a specific formulation, so its environmental impact will be based on the process used to create it and the source from which it was derived. This is also true for gasoline, which is simply the current 'synfuel' derived from oil via refining. The entire point of this process is simply to derive our liquid fuel from a source that is readily available to us (coal) rather than one controlled by others (oil). As I said above, I wouldn't believe what these guys are saying about the environmental impact, but the promise for relieving the demand on foreign oil is definitely there.
 
Now that it seems oil prices will remain at near current levels companies will start to invest in the technology.

Start? This has been one of the trends I've been mentioning as one of the best investment ideas since the bursting of the dot com bubble, Headwaters. I've been touting this company any time someone posts a "stock discussion" thread and in the spirit of full disclosure I hold a fair amount of it (it's my second biggest holding after FNF, which has been an even bigger absolute return monster these last few years). HW is showing no signs of slowing down anytime soon either.

For those interested in the subject, check here for an interesting news resource
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
Now that it seems oil prices will remain at near current levels companies will start to invest in the technology.

Start? This has been one of the trends I've been mentioning as one of the best investment ideas since the bursting of the dot com bubble, Headwaters. I've been touting this company any time someone posts a "stock discussion" thread and in the spirit of full disclosure I hold a fair amount of it (it's my second biggest holding after FNF, which has been an even bigger absolute return monster these last few years). HW is showing no signs of slowing down anytime soon either.

For those interested in the subject, check here for an interesting news resource

The larger energy companies (and oil companies since they won't want to miss out) will be the ones that will spearhead major industrial construction progams as would be required.
 
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: smack Down
a synthetic fuel that came from the coal and could run cars, jets and trucks or heat homes without contributing to global warming

I'm calling BS on that claim. Assuming the theory on global warming is true then this coal to synthetic fuel will produce CO2 when burned and there for global warming.



Synfuel is a cleaner fuel than oil based gas. Also during the refining process some of the carbon can be captured and is fairly easy to sequester at this point.

But all the energy is in the carbon and hydrogen bonds.



I dont know if synfuel has a better carbon to hydrogen ratio than gasoline, but otherwise it is a cleaner fuel.
 
Originally posted by: K1052
IIRC, there has been much talk lately about expanded use of coal liquefaction.

I'd like to know where they plan to sequester all the CO2 that will be produced. Also, I think the article's estimate of how long the coal reserves would last is several hundred years too long from what I have read.

Now that it seems oil prices will remain at near current levels companies will start to invest in the technology.


So instead of 800 years it might be only 400 or 500? I can live with that. If we haven't invented something like fusion or zero-point energy by then maybe the human race should give up.
btw as to the claim this synth fuel wouldn't contribut to global warming it may have been the journalists error or a misquote. If you go to the governers website here is his page explaining it better:
http://governor.mt.gov/hottopics/faqsynthetic.asp

Now the real problem with getting this started is that oil needs to really be above 40 per barrel if it costs 35 per barrel to make it. Right now no one is willing to risk billions that oil won't go below 40 per barrel. Despite all the talk of how oil is going to stay high even the oil companies use an estimate, I believe, in the 30-40 dollar long term range. This is the deciding factor in what deposits to develope. So in order to get this synth fuel started we need some kind of price assurance for the synth oil. I think it would be a good decision to fund the difference (if any) needed to pay off the produced oil to see how well it would work.
 
I think we rather go to war with another country for the oil instead of having the war in our own country. Imaging this, All these big companies marching to Montana to mine the coal and turn it to whatever is it, then we got these Environmentalists...or Environmental extreamist going to protest because these companies are doing something damage to the natural and thing might get out of hand that we always know that would happend. Then we get a small wars, which turn into a big war. Also, what happend when the coal run out?"
 
Originally posted by: mackle
I think we rather go to war with another country for the oil instead of having the war in our own country. Imaging this, All these big companies marching to Montana to mine the coal and turn it to whatever is it, then we got these Environmentalists...or Environmental extreamist going to protest because these companies are doing something damage to the natural and thing might get out of hand that we always know that would happend. Then we get a small wars, which turn into a big war. Also, what happend when the coal run out?"



Coal, tarsands, shale, methane hyrdates, nuclear, solar, wind.....

And maybe one day even fusion.

lots of options.
 
Originally posted by: charrison
I dont know if synfuel has a better carbon to hydrogen ratio than gasoline, but otherwise it is a cleaner fuel.
I'd really like to see a source for this if you're going to keep regurgitating it. The reason gasoline has the composition it does is so that oil companies can get the maximum energy out of the number of carbon atoms they pump out of the ground. This happens to be a mixture of heptane and octane primarily, with many other things thrown in for a variety of reasons. And, by maximizing the energy yield per carbon, the CO2 emissions are inherently minimized, which is why your statement doesn't make any sense. All of these things are tied down by thermodynamics: heats of combustion of various hydrocarbons minus refining energy expenses (which are a source of CO2 as well, so minimizing them is also a consideration) dictate the energy density of the product and, therefore, the CO2 emissions per mile you drive. Do you really believe that the oil companies have been pissing away money for decades? It's true that they used to burn gasoline as an unwanted byproduct before the advent of the automobile, but I think they've wised up a bit since then.
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: charrison
I dont know if synfuel has a better carbon to hydrogen ratio than gasoline, but otherwise it is a cleaner fuel.
I'd really like to see a source for this if you're going to keep regurgitating it. The reason gasoline has the composition it does is so that oil companies can get the maximum energy out of the number of carbon atoms they pump out of the ground. This happens to be a mixture of heptane and octane primarily, with many other things thrown in for a variety of reasons. And, by maximizing the energy yield per carbon, the CO2 emissions are inherently minimized, which is why your statement doesn't make any sense. All of these things are tied down by thermodynamics: heats of combustion of various hydrocarbons minus refining energy expenses (which are a source of CO2 as well, so minimizing them is also a consideration) dictate the energy density of the product and, therefore, the CO2 emissions per mile you drive. Do you really believe that the oil companies have been pissing away money for decades? It's true that they used to burn gasoline as an unwanted byproduct before the advent of the automobile, but I think they've wised up a bit since then.



Read the faq a few posts up and it will explain why it is a cleaner fuel. However I still am not claiming to know if it will release less co2 or not.
 
Originally posted by: charrison
Read the faq a few posts up and it will explain why it is a cleaner fuel. However I still am not claiming to know if it will release less co2 or not.
I read the FAQ and, while it sounds great, I know that it's BS. We have an environmental engineering lab in our department working on ways to take things like mercury and arsenic out of coal. They're nowhere near the point where it could be put in a plant yet, but it's getting there and should be there within a decade. That said, mercury/arsenic don't tend to occur in oil, so saying that you remove mercury/arsenic from coal just means you recover to the same 'cleanliness' as oil was in the first place. Many oils are also poor in sulfur (this is rated by the 'sweetness' of the oil), so the removal of sulfur doesn't necessarily garner any additional 'cleanliness' either, especially since sulfur smells, but doesn't really have any environmental impact.
 
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