Lets assume for a minute that Democrats will win the presidency and congress....

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
I was thinking about this today while driving down to a machining factory to pick up a part.

Are there any differences that we will even really see with a Democrat? Back in 2004 the most we got out of Kerry was, "I can do it better"...REALLY? HOW SO? And the HOW SO was one that we simply didn't get....reminded me of Ahhhnold's "I'll make Kahlifornyaah better...once we OPEN THE BOOKS" campaign ~ but being the terminator lets you win with vague goals

Now it seems the only thing to do is

a) Admit we screwed up - take a radically different goal in dealing with the country in terms of rooting out corruption and carpet bagging, beefing up security to the levels that they were always stated to be in both urban areas and desert borders, providing a clear and cut timeline of WHAT will be accomplished and WHEN, providing incentives and jobs to work...and ultimately making Iraqis feel they have a PARTNER in their future...

b) Admit we screwed up and slowly pull out while the people continue to fight, bicker and kill themselves

c) Admit we screwed up but do nothing as we maintain current levels and watch our men slowly be picked off, while iraqis die at an alarming rate which will no doubt increase.


From what I've seen from the Democrats as a whole....is something along the lines of (b), MAYBE (c).
But is that really a smart choice? Haven't we seen how bad choices bite us back later? Some, like Zebo, argue in FAVOR of (b) because we can keep them fighting and wasting their resources while sucking their oil and having a few bases. But often we have heard the mantra that stable democratic governments are less likely to go to war, and more likely to simply want to trade.
Predicting 30-40 years in the future is a near impossible task and extrapolation is an evil that statistics abhores...but looking at this on a global level (and taking things on a big enough level does allow us to ignore the little random variations that statistics usually notes) it makes more SENSE to put forth a REAL effort to help stabalize Iraq and help a democracy grow (regretfully it should have come naturally, but we can't bitch about it anymore. This is why the power to commit troops to battle should not belong to a sole person because it can put us in permanent situations that we cannot espece very quickly) rather than to milk the region, and expect it not to become a massive pain in the @$$ 40-50 years from now.


But what have we, or atleast I, seen from the general view of democrats? "Its broken, but we won't fix it because it takes too much risk to do so and we don't want to risk our seats in congress"

Then again this is coming from both parties where both are gungho for war when their party has the presidency, and when both act more dovish when the other party is at the helms of the presidency.


So in all seriousness~ especially to those who are extremely pro democrat and feel that they are a better choice (and given what we have of the republicans...that isn't saying much) to help turn around this Iraq policy....WHY and WHAT has given you that impression?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,809
6,364
126
You want to reward those responsible for the mess?

Who knows what the Dems might be able to do? If nothing else they'll likely prevent even more shenaniganry from the Bush Admin, which is worth it's weight in gold.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
It's not so much that I think having the Democrats in charge would help the situation in Iraq as it is that I think having the Democrats in charge would help prevent ANOTHER Iraq. Frankly I think Iraq has gone too far to effect substantial changes in the eventual outcome...they will either fail or not at this point, I'm not convinced there is a lot we can do to help. The option of really committing to victory (something Bush has done a great job avoiding) and really sending in the troops and resources necessary to eliminate the radical, sectarian militias, MIGHT be possible...but Bush let things slide to the point where that would be horribly expensive in terms of resources and soldiers, and I just don't think there is the public support for that kind of thing. Had the Democrats been in charge on 9/11, I'm 50% sure that Iraq would not be in the sorry state it is today...and this won't be the last time we'll face a situation like this, frankly I don't trust the Republicans to do the job next time.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: magomago
I was thinking about this today while driving down to a machining factory to pick up a part.

Are there any differences that we will even really see with a Democrat?

Back in 2004 the most we got out of Kerry was, "I can do it better"...REALLY? HOW SO?

First of all it's amazing under the Republican regime that there is a machining factory left.

They must be hanging on by a thread.

Second of all Kerry is not the President so your question of how so is moot?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Back in 2004 the most we got out of Kerry was, "I can do it better"

There was no real difference between Kerry and Bush. Kerry made noises that he would somehow "not go it alone and get other countries involved," but all that would have done is mean he wouldn't need a translator when the French told him to fvck off as they are still pissed we knocked them off the Oil for Food gravy train.

If Democrats were in charge, they wouldn't dare choose your option C, the political price would be too steep. Sure, polls show that most Americans want our troops to leave Iraq, but they want them to leave victorious. If a future President abandons Iraq like we did in Vietnam and lets the place get overrun by extremists and turned into a bloodbath, the American voters wouldn't trust the Presidency to that party for a generation.

Option B would only be politically viable if things didnd't go to sh!t for a while as or after we completed our pullout. If 2 weeks after we left the place turns into Somalia, that's not going to cut it. Two years, maybe - then it's the Iraqi's fault that they couldn't keep things going.


 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: Rainsford
It's not so much that I think having the Democrats in charge would help the situation in Iraq as it is that I think having the Democrats in charge would help prevent ANOTHER Iraq. Frankly I think Iraq has gone too far to effect substantial changes in the eventual outcome...they will either fail or not at this point, I'm not convinced there is a lot we can do to help. The option of really committing to victory (something Bush has done a great job avoiding) and really sending in the troops and resources necessary to eliminate the radical, sectarian militias, MIGHT be possible...but Bush let things slide to the point where that would be horribly expensive in terms of resources and soldiers, and I just don't think there is the public support for that kind of thing. Had the Democrats been in charge on 9/11, I'm 50% sure that Iraq would not be in the sorry state it is today...and this won't be the last time we'll face a situation like this, frankly I don't trust the Republicans to do the job next time.

I agree with you -- I don't think Iraq would be in the state it is, and I truly wonder whether or not we would have gone to war with a republican senate and democratic president...

But considering the sorry state of things right now, how have the Democrats shown they will deal with the current situation as it is? Its ultimately pure speculation as to what the dems WOULD have done...but what would they do NOW. And What i'm saying is simply is that it seems to me, there is NOTHING different they would do if they were in charge of Iraq.
Who knows, maybe Iraq has gone to a point where it is out of our hands...but does that mean we still allow our current policies to propagate itself in Baghdad?

See what i'm looking at isn't so much the past and would the Dems WOULD have done after 9/11, or the future...such as who the Dems will NOT invade, but the present such as what changes will the Democrats do to try to make the best of the situation. And honestly, I'm having trouble finding any differences. Come this fall, and later in 2 years~ I see two sides of the same coin and its hard to get any real changes made in government when both sides are so damned vague and similar.

I'm not saying vote for republicans or giving them a pass by saying that the Democrats cannot do any better, I'm not saying "Well how will the dems be different" because I sure as hell won't vote for any politician who voted yes on the patiort act or gave initial support to GO to war...
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
If the dems get in charge, Iraq will not be the only issue. Bush got us in a hell of a jam in Iraq and has no new ideas--other than hoping Iraq will not go civil war before the mod-term elections. You can also bet tax policy will change---not only is Bush spending unsustainable, his tax cuts are biased for the rich and only for the rich. But whoever wins in 08, the winner vwill spend at least 4 to 8 eight years just undoing the stupidity of GWB---so it was with Ronald Reagan---and so shall it be for GWB.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: magomago
I was thinking about this today while driving down to a machining factory to pick up a part.

Are there any differences that we will even really see with a Democrat?

Back in 2004 the most we got out of Kerry was, "I can do it better"...REALLY? HOW SO?

First of all it's amazing under the Republican regime that there is a machining factory left.

They must be hanging on by a thread.

Second of all Kerry is not the President so your question of how so is moot?

I'm saying during the election, the most he offered was that he would simply "do things better" without going into detail WHAT he WOULD have done. And when he was asked about the future it simply was "he WILL do things better". It is that type of BS that made him lose an election in which he should have handily won. But I don't see the point discussing it further, so I dont want to stray too far from what I originally am thinking about.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Also glenn1, is option B truly the best for us? Are we prepared to deal with what will happen 40 years down the road? That level of uncertainity isn't one that sounds welcoming...
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: Lemon law
If the dems get in charge, Iraq will not be the only issue. Bush got us in a hell of a jam in Iraq and has no new ideas--other than hoping Iraq will not go civil war before the mod-term elections. You can also bet tax policy will change---not only is Bush spending unsustainable, his tax cuts are biased for the rich and only for the rich. But whoever wins in 08, the winner vwill spend at least 4 to 8 eight years just undoing the stupidity of GWB---so it was with Ronald Reagan---and so shall it be for GWB.

But what do the DEMS as a whole say? You getting at my point?

I agree though...whoever wins will not have a chance to stake out new directions rather than have to back pedal and fix a few things...namely domestic situations, and our world image before we can really start to try to lead things once more
 

PELarson

Platinum Member
Mar 27, 2001
2,289
0
0
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Lemon law
If the dems get in charge, Iraq will not be the only issue. Bush got us in a hell of a jam in Iraq and has no new ideas--other than hoping Iraq will not go civil war before the mod-term elections. You can also bet tax policy will change---not only is Bush spending unsustainable, his tax cuts are biased for the rich and only for the rich. But whoever wins in 08, the winner vwill spend at least 4 to 8 eight years just undoing the stupidity of GWB---so it was with Ronald Reagan---and so shall it be for GWB.

But what do the DEMS as a whole say? You getting at my point?

I agree though...whoever wins will not have a chance to stake out new directions rather than have to back pedal and fix a few things...namely domestic situations, and our world image before we can really start to try to lead things once more

You mean other than what has been suggested for almost 1 year!

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Rainsford
It's not so much that I think having the Democrats in charge would help the situation in Iraq as it is that I think having the Democrats in charge would help prevent ANOTHER Iraq. Frankly I think Iraq has gone too far to effect substantial changes in the eventual outcome...they will either fail or not at this point, I'm not convinced there is a lot we can do to help. The option of really committing to victory (something Bush has done a great job avoiding) and really sending in the troops and resources necessary to eliminate the radical, sectarian militias, MIGHT be possible...but Bush let things slide to the point where that would be horribly expensive in terms of resources and soldiers, and I just don't think there is the public support for that kind of thing. Had the Democrats been in charge on 9/11, I'm 50% sure that Iraq would not be in the sorry state it is today...and this won't be the last time we'll face a situation like this, frankly I don't trust the Republicans to do the job next time.

I agree with you -- I don't think Iraq would be in the state it is, and I truly wonder whether or not we would have gone to war with a republican senate and democratic president...

But considering the sorry state of things right now, how have the Democrats shown they will deal with the current situation as it is? Its ultimately pure speculation as to what the dems WOULD have done...but what would they do NOW. And What i'm saying is simply is that it seems to me, there is NOTHING different they would do if they were in charge of Iraq.
Who knows, maybe Iraq has gone to a point where it is out of our hands...but does that mean we still allow our current policies to propagate itself in Baghdad?

See what i'm looking at isn't so much the past and would the Dems WOULD have done after 9/11, or the future...such as who the Dems will NOT invade, but the present such as what changes will the Democrats do to try to make the best of the situation. And honestly, I'm having trouble finding any differences. Come this fall, and later in 2 years~ I see two sides of the same coin and its hard to get any real changes made in government when both sides are so damned vague and similar.

I'm not saying vote for republicans or giving them a pass by saying that the Democrats cannot do any better, I'm not saying "Well how will the dems be different" because I sure as hell won't vote for any politician who voted yes on the patiort act or gave initial support to GO to war...

I guess my feeling on the topic is that Dems WON'T be different in how we deal with Iraq. The only semi-realistic thing I can see is that the Dems might be better able to enlist the support of other nations in cleaning up Iraq, given that they haven't spent the last 4 years pissing off everyone else in the world. But even that is an outside possibility, IMHO, as I don't think other countries really are that motivated to help us clean up Iraq...we'd need a Democratic leader with truly Clinton-esque diplomatic skills to help convince them it is in their best interest, and frankly, I think the Democratic party is all out of Clintons at the moment.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,586
986
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Rainsford
It's not so much that I think having the Democrats in charge would help the situation in Iraq as it is that I think having the Democrats in charge would help prevent ANOTHER Iraq. Frankly I think Iraq has gone too far to effect substantial changes in the eventual outcome...they will either fail or not at this point, I'm not convinced there is a lot we can do to help. The option of really committing to victory (something Bush has done a great job avoiding) and really sending in the troops and resources necessary to eliminate the radical, sectarian militias, MIGHT be possible...but Bush let things slide to the point where that would be horribly expensive in terms of resources and soldiers, and I just don't think there is the public support for that kind of thing. Had the Democrats been in charge on 9/11, I'm 50% sure that Iraq would not be in the sorry state it is today...and this won't be the last time we'll face a situation like this, frankly I don't trust the Republicans to do the job next time.

I agree with you -- I don't think Iraq would be in the state it is, and I truly wonder whether or not we would have gone to war with a republican senate and democratic president...

But considering the sorry state of things right now, how have the Democrats shown they will deal with the current situation as it is? Its ultimately pure speculation as to what the dems WOULD have done...but what would they do NOW. And What i'm saying is simply is that it seems to me, there is NOTHING different they would do if they were in charge of Iraq.
Who knows, maybe Iraq has gone to a point where it is out of our hands...but does that mean we still allow our current policies to propagate itself in Baghdad?

See what i'm looking at isn't so much the past and would the Dems WOULD have done after 9/11, or the future...such as who the Dems will NOT invade, but the present such as what changes will the Democrats do to try to make the best of the situation. And honestly, I'm having trouble finding any differences. Come this fall, and later in 2 years~ I see two sides of the same coin and its hard to get any real changes made in government when both sides are so damned vague and similar.

I'm not saying vote for republicans or giving them a pass by saying that the Democrats cannot do any better, I'm not saying "Well how will the dems be different" because I sure as hell won't vote for any politician who voted yes on the patiort act or gave initial support to GO to war...

I guess my feeling on the topic is that Dems WON'T be different in how we deal with Iraq. The only semi-realistic thing I can see is that the Dems might be better able to enlist the support of other nations in cleaning up Iraq, given that they haven't spent the last 4 years pissing off everyone else in the world. But even that is an outside possibility, IMHO, as I don't think other countries really are that motivated to help us clean up Iraq...we'd need a Democratic leader with truly Clinton-esque diplomatic skills to help convince them it is in their best interest, and frankly, I think the Democratic party is all out of Clintons at the moment.

So is the republican party. They have been ever since Reagan.
 

Clinth

Senior member
Dec 11, 1999
569
0
0
I for one would be scared if the Dems get back in, the soft hand and kid glove approach to terrorism is what got us in this mess to begin with. Launch a cruise missile here and there or go to the UN and whine as are troops were attack. Times have change and that kind of approach does not and has not work. Hard and fast school ground rules. Thats what they respect. not politics, Bush did that. give him credit for that if nothing else.

I've seen the elephant
Clinth
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: Clinth
I for one would be scared if the Dems get back in, the soft hand and kid glove approach to terrorism is what got us in this mess to begin with. Launch a cruise missile here and there or go to the UN and whine as are troops were attack. Times have change and that kind of approach does not and has not work. Hard and fast school ground rules. Thats what they respect. not politics, Bush did that. give him credit for that if nothing else.

I've seen the elephant
Clinth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to disagree------all over the globe---Terrorists are winning with the anti-Bush
mantra---if nothing else---Somalia will become the new Afganistan---because the terrorist now control that country---and meanwhile the deals we make with devils tie us up in Afganistan and Iraq---bleeding us dry meanwhile.

GWB hypocracy now reaches new highs---while he talks up democracy he embraces dictators far worse than Saddam---and violates both international and domestic law
making a total mocery of any United States moral high ground. And GWB hyperspastic
actions have now left the United States dangeriously isolated diplomatically. As the rest of the world now refuses to even consider following a madman---an idiot---who is totally botching up any so called war against terrorism.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: PELarson
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: Lemon law
If the dems get in charge, Iraq will not be the only issue. Bush got us in a hell of a jam in Iraq and has no new ideas--other than hoping Iraq will not go civil war before the mod-term elections. You can also bet tax policy will change---not only is Bush spending unsustainable, his tax cuts are biased for the rich and only for the rich. But whoever wins in 08, the winner vwill spend at least 4 to 8 eight years just undoing the stupidity of GWB---so it was with Ronald Reagan---and so shall it be for GWB.

But what do the DEMS as a whole say? You getting at my point?

I agree though...whoever wins will not have a chance to stake out new directions rather than have to back pedal and fix a few things...namely domestic situations, and our world image before we can really start to try to lead things once more

You mean other than what has been suggested for almost 1 year!

Please tell me how bringing every troop in Iraq home is going to make us safer? And how does giving up the fight there help us win the war on terror?
Withdrawing our troops now would be admitting defeat, and we have seen in the past how terrorist look at that.
Once they claim victory in Iraq they will become emboldened in their idea to attack America at home, because they know that even as we strike back we will eventually grow tired and give up again.
The terror leaders are in this for the long haul, they see dying as a good thing, as a way to heaven, they don't mind suffering a few losses as long as they are making progress as they see it. We can't afford to give them any victories anywhere.
We give up in Iraq and every terror leader in the world will go around saying "3000 dead and the Americans give up, see how weak they are."
Is this the kind of victory you want to give them?
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
People keep saying "well, what have the Democrats done?"

Why do you ask this? What CAN they do? The Republicans completely own all three branches of government, and you look to the Democrats and ask them What have you done for me lately?

Show me ANY party at ANY time that has been able to do ANYthing when it has 0 power whatsoever.

The only point of electing Democrats is to see what they can do, and that's not really a criticism or a compliment. Not electing them because they "haven't done anything" is absurd - they haven't had the chance to for 6 years. Meanwhile, perennial GOP screwups get reelected because people think the Democrats can't do anything, if only because no one in their position really could.

Mindboggling.
 

BucsMAN3K

Member
May 14, 2006
126
0
0
There will still be war.

There will still be worries about the economy.

There will still be social security.

There will still be a debate over taxes.

50% of the national will still be divided.

The president will wear out his welcome early in his first term, but get elected to a second.

People will still bitch.

But overall people will realize that it doesn't matter if you have a turd sandwhich or giant douche in office, the country will still be in a good shape.

People need to learn to enjoy apathy.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
To Prof John,

Who seems to think we can't allow the terrorists any victories----------thats total bullshit.

Terrorism is basically anarchy against government----only when government is so corrupt will anarchy win---yes you fight terrorism and crime----but until terrorism and crime is a better alternative---you fight it after it happens----and then let everyone else cheer when the perps are arrested---when you violate everyone elses rights in the process of fighting terrorism, you become a terrorist in your own right.

A just civilization offers better alternatives than terrorism to all-------a stupid government tries to impose those alternatives---and creates more terrorists because it fails to address the
ideas that fuel terrorism.
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
We 'allowed' Communist victories in Nam, and Korea, and yes those places are bad now, but in the end it all worked out okay.

The obsessive-compulsive "we can't allow the enemy any victory" will ultimately be our downfall. Ever heard of one step back, two steps forward? That's pretty much what Bush has put the next guy in a position to do.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
I think at this point, the GOP is too politically invested in Iraq to make objective decisions on our policy there.
Democrats would bring a new set of eyes to the problem that can make decisions based on current situation, not to justify past decisions.
The main question is: can we still succeed in Iraq, would staying there longer help or just delay the inevitable?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: senseamp
I think at this point, the GOP is too politically invested in Iraq to make objective decisions on our policy there.
Democrats would bring a new set of eyes to the problem that can make decisions based on current situation, not to justify past decisions.

The main question is: can we still succeed in Iraq, would staying there longer help or just delay the inevitable?

I've asked this question many times and don't recall seeing a straight answer from anyone.

What is the definition of success in Iraq?
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
so far the Dems have put up no solutions to anything. they are champions of criticism without coming up with any better ideas.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: moshquerade
so far the Dems have put up no solutions to anything. they are champions of criticism without coming up with any better ideas.
Didn't they suggest sh!tcanning Rumsfield? Sounds like a pretty good start of a solution to me.

 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: moshquerade
so far the Dems have put up no solutions to anything. they are champions of criticism without coming up with any better ideas.
Didn't they suggest sh!tcanning Rumsfield? Sounds like a pretty good start of a solution to me.
sorry Charlie, that's not a solution. they think shitcanning the President would work too.
i want to hear rational ideas, and alternative solutions. they just don't talk along those lines.