Let us not forget that America is all about capitalism.

[tweaker2]

The highest form of capitalism is a plutocracy. We live in a "supposed" democracy. The two are mutually exclusive.

We are inexorably headed in that direction, as more and more of our politicians are corrupted into servitude by our plutocratic aristocrats that want so badly to create their fondly dreamt of oligarchy that would place them above the laws and rule by the majority that stifles their efforts in this regard.

edit - A healthy economy of the likes we had post-WWII where a strong middle class provided the foundation from which to build on has been consistently chipped away at by the wealthy as a way to redistribute the wealth of the nation into their pockets.

If any skeptic of these crimes against the nation that were legalized through our legislatures wanted a very clear view of this process in action all they would have to do is look at who the Reagan/Bush/Trump administrations filled their cabinet positions with and what legislation the Repub controlled Congresses pushed through when they had complete control of our gov't.

Simple and simply undeniable, really.

 

[Mai72]

Foxconn workers EARN what they get... which is food and little else. Does being their employee sound ideal to you?
I ask because any public company is practically mandated by law to do everything they can to get you there.
Your earning is antithetical to their profits. It's is only time that separates your current paycheck from elimination or reduction.



The bootstrap is a lie.

Let me try to explain. Capitalism is a journey towards efficiency. Once something more efficient has been developed, you are NOT going back in time to "how things were". Those bootstraps you speak of are HISTORY. Gone, eliminated. They were the small businesses of America that never had foreign investment or a board of directors. They were mom and pop stores who knew they needed to support their communities and offered jobs at prices people could live on. A man could pump gas and feed his family.

Those conditions are lost to time, today it's Multinationals and Wall Street elites. If not your employer themselves then they apply competition and pressure against your employer. If your job cannot, today, be automated or shipped overseas... then you'll earn the lowest buck humanly possible. Which is far less than that man pumping gas in times of yore. Wage suppression is real, and since the 1970s each working class generation has less wealth per hour worked than the one before it. As Capitalism strives towards that golden goose of dropping labor entirely.

And make no mistake. You WILL be downsized.
The only question is if you want a country strong and dynamic enough to see both you and its own economy through the changes.
Even your fabled bootstraps have a safety net these days... Foxconn had them installed to keep their cattle workers alive.

Do you know what amazes me. That many immigrants who come to America are 3X more likely to be a millionaire than native born Americans. Now, why would that be? Maybe it's because they just know how special we are and that opportunity in this great country still exists.

Go ask any immigrant about America. You'll see his or her eyes light up with the possibilitities of what they can become. Go ask someone who was born here and they'll give you a blank stare. We've gotten too comfortable. That's the issue.

I do agree with what you've said. Wage suppression is real. A normal salary just doesn't cut it today. A $100k a year salary isn't a big deal today. What do we do about it? I'd like to think we still have control. That thru my actions I can still do well financially, and that my goals can become reality. That's my hope.

 

[agent00f]

Well that is the issue. We have more people than we do jobs. That's going to be a pressing issue unless something can be done. We have more people living longer and many aren't retiring. It's just too damn expensive.

So, what's the solution? In the past we had world wars and diseases that brought down the population to a manageable level. After WW2 many of our young men were dead. As morbid as this might sound, it created a ton of opportunity for many people who were alive and physically capable of work. Today? You'll be competing with hundreds of people who are very capable of doing that same job.

This is why I like the idea of being a small business owner. Today, it's more realistic than ever to go into business for yourself. We have the Internet. I've taught ESL online to students from South Korea and was getting paid quite well. When I was in Thailand I met entrapuners who were killing it on Amazon. IMO, you need to think outside the box today because our world is rapidly changing. You either keep changing or else you'll get left behind. Many Americans have been left behind.

That's probably why it's a good idea to learn about macro-econ, which studies this very thing.

The asian economic "miracles" weren't literal acts of god, or even small bidness owners, but rather massive well-planned spending exercises with long term goals in mind. What's funny is that "we need more of them job creators" is exactly right, except divinity-like creation in case isn't by the invisible hand but smart people who create market rules that work.

The highest form of capitalism is a plutocracy. We live in a "supposed" democracy. The two are mutually exclusive.

We are inexorably headed in that direction, as more and more of our politicians are corrupted into servitude by our plutocratic aristocrats that want so badly to create their fondly dreamt of oligarchy that would place them above the laws and rule by the majority that stifles their efforts in this regard.

Democracy is basically political communism, for better or worse.

 

[tweaker2]

That's probably why it's a good idea to learn about macro-econ, which studies this very thing.

The asian economic "miracles" weren't literal acts of god, or even small bidness owners, but rather massive well-planned spending exercises with long term goals in mind. What's funny is that "we need more of them job creators" is exactly right, except divinity-like creation in case isn't by the invisible hand but smart people who create market rules that work.



Democracy is basically political communism, for better or worse.

Personally speaking, I find that a refreshing point of view that I think is worth spending some time ruminating over. :thumbs up:

 

[senseamp]

Well that is the issue. We have more people than we do jobs. That's going to be a pressing issue unless something can be done. We have more people living longer and many aren't retiring. It's just too damn expensive.

So, what's the solution? In the past we had world wars and diseases that brought down the population to a manageable level. After WW2 many of our young men were dead. As morbid as this might sound, it created a ton of opportunity for many people who were alive and physically capable of work. Today? You'll be competing with hundreds of people who are very capable of doing that same job.

This is why I like the idea of being a small business owner. Today, it's more realistic than ever to go into business for yourself. We have the Internet. I've taught ESL online to students from South Korea and was getting paid quite well. When I was in Thailand I met entrapuners who were killing it on Amazon. IMO, you need to think outside the box today because our world is rapidly changing. You either keep changing or else you'll get left behind. Many Americans have been left behind.

And more of them will be left behind, and the economy will shrink unless they have money to spend.

 

[norseamd]

Democracy is basically political communism, for better or worse.

Of course it is.

And real communism basically has similarities with anarchism or libertarianism.

And no to all the nitwits out there, Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism are not real communism.

 

[norseamd]

Personally speaking, I find that a refreshing point of view that I think is worth spending some time ruminating over. :thumbs up:

 

[agent00f]

Of course it is.

And real communism basically has similarities with anarchism or libertarianism.

And no to all the nitwits out there, Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism are not real communism.

Always thought it was most comical that the same people who absolutely despise economic equality don't get mouthy about democracy.

Of course that might very well change as they cling onto power by undemocratic methods such as gerrymandering and the electoral college.

 

[bshole]

And what is the foremost goal Capitalism has for labor? To devalue it.
I say again, to eliminate or reduce your pay check.

That is why we automate where possible, or use slave labor from Asia. Regardless of the cost of living, labor is just an anchor to be cast off wherever possible. You assail welfare, do you think American workers have too much money today? How much poorer do you think they should be?

I respect where Capitalism has brought us, but it reaches a point of efficiency where someone has to step in and prevent slave labor.
That is why I look towards America of the past, where taxes reached far greater heights and income inequality was far less.
I would move to use those taxes as a safety net to supplement, not replace Capitalism. You know the two are not mutually exclusive, right?
I intend for a bottom floor which no citizen would fall under. To protect their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
For I do not believe personal independence can be achieved for people who lack a certain economic liquidity.

I envision a Capitalistic system with a safety net, where no one is left behind. For we humans need more dignity than cogs in a machine.

I wish I could double like this post.

 

[Jaskalas]

Interesting to have a conservative not proselytize capitalism

The part of the Conservative message that always appealed to me was the Libertarian side. Social and economic liberty.
After that it comes down to economics. Stimulus was battled, and I objectively lost. I value people's freedom of choice, but I realize truly poor people have little to no choice. Then someone here linked Inequality for All, a message of such potency that it cannot be ignored. Where America has been, where it is, why, and our path(s) ahead. I was already vexed by the ideas of loss of labor and automation... and how those have been sliding against our workers for decades.

This has forced my hand, and to ensure people's liberty I believe we must also ensure them a place in the economy.

Do you know the difference between capitalism and liberalism, and what basic rights and ideals of America might be attributable to which?

Not knowing entirely what contexts you're loading those terms with, but for me Capitalism is the right of the people to private property and to make as free a market as can be. Classic Liberal means "to give maximum extent of freedom possible", as would be my aim. The two are not mutually exclusive... it's just that people often view taxation and benefits as corrosive to liberty, like shackles or a leash. Indeed, an improper government with such economic power could wreck havoc on freedom of choice. Yet loss of agency may also come from having too little money.

Reorganizing much of our current "handout" system and delivering it universally and without strings attached is my honest reply.
An attempt to balance all these factors both present and future.

 

[greatnoob]

It might sound like I'm against welfare but I'm not, unless it's being abused. I know it's all anecdotal but I've seen too many people who were capable of work abuse the system. IMO, it's a huge issue with many people who are on welfare for too many years. Why shouldn't they be? The system is designed for that. Why should anyone work for $10 an hour when the government offers handouts. Again. If you need it I have no issues..

That's why here in Australia you need to prove that you've made an effort looking for a job (save for workers who have medical problems) before you are eligible for handouts. From what I remember off of a survey from the ABS, the amount of people exploiting welfare was very small here. I'm certain there there are at least some sort of eligibility checks (similar to ours) in the States.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Money should be the first things on our mind? Be thankful that is not the thing which takes priority over all others. Some very capable people can take your stuff before you knew it. Instead they recognize that America was created for many reasons but freedom to do many things is why we fought the Revolution. Charles Dickens describe Scrooge this way " a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous old sinner"

Well it is money first.

 

[Jaskalas]

Money should be the first things on our mind? Be thankful that is not the thing which takes priority over all others. Some very capable people can take your stuff before you knew it. Instead they recognize that America was created for many reasons but freedom to do many things is why we fought the Revolution. Charles Dickens describe Scrooge this way " a squeezing, wrenching, grasping, scraping, clutching, covetous old sinner"

Well it is money first.

Oh, are you saying you want us to place people over profits?
Thereby giving your fellow Americans a place in the economy and, through that liquidity, the freedom and dignity they deserve?
Surely we can agree on principle that the working poor are not free, as a case study of Foxconn and their suicide nets will attest.

It's already within today's budget. It'd be more like a reorganization and string cutting. A simplification of today's bureaucracy.
Let us not add to the number of things Republicans claim to stand for yet fail to act on.

 

[ImpulsE69]

I don't have a problem with capitalism. I have a problem with liars, and capitalism based on 'it's ok for me to skirt/break the law to make money by any means necessary as fast as I can' mentality that capitalism has devolved into. Add to that the fact that usually when they get caught, the punishment is usually less than someone caught dealing weed.

But then let's be honest. Many of the worlds greatest achievements were done on the backs of slaves, meaning free labor, so it's not like this is anything new.

 

[norseamd]

The part of the Conservative message that always appealed to me was the Libertarian side. Social and economic liberty.
After that it comes down to economics. Stimulus was battled, and I objectively lost. I value people's freedom of choice, but I realize truly poor people have little to no choice. Then someone here linked Inequality for All, a message of such potency that it cannot be ignored. Where America has been, where it is, why, and our path(s) ahead. I was already vexed by the ideas of loss of labor and automation... and how those have been sliding against our workers for decades.

This has forced my hand, and to ensure people's liberty I believe we must also ensure them a place in the economy.

Actually, what has been known as "conservatism" in America is actually conservative liberalism. In most of the rest of the world liberalism is still used to refer to its original meaning, and most of the parties that occupy the area that Republicans have over many of the previous decades in other countries use the name Liberal Party. Trump is directly at odds with liberalism, and also conservative liberalism, and he is basically a societal reactionary but with less concern about personal or social activities and mores. Not surprisingly, much of the population who have made up a large percentage of Republican voter base are favorable to both of these axis, and they are better known by the label of Jacksonians. They are in direct opposition to the other 3 well known American political types, the Hamiltonians, Jeffersonians, and Wilsonians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_liberalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonian_democracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamiltonian_economic_program

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffersonian_democracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilsonianism

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2001/dec/16/20011216-034036-4236r/

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2010/01/08/do-jeffersonians-exist/

http://atlanticsentinel.com/2015/03/four-traditions-inform-american-foreign-policy/

Not knowing entirely what contexts you're loading those terms with, but for me Capitalism is the right of the people to private property and to make as free a market as can be. Classic Liberal means "to give maximum extent of freedom possible", as would be my aim. The two are not mutually exclusive... it's just that people often view taxation and benefits as corrosive to liberty, like shackles or a leash. Indeed, an improper government with such economic power could wreck havoc on freedom of choice. Yet loss of agency may also come from having too little money.

Reorganizing much of our current "handout" system and delivering it universally and without strings attached is my honest reply.
An attempt to balance all these factors both present and future.

Most of that is actually what was enshrined by the ideals of liberalism. The global political movement that was happening in Europe and North America during the 18th century was known as Liberal Enlightenment. Capitalism as a word doesnt seem to have be used much until some time in the 1800s, probably boosted by the writings of Karl Marx.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Can we please give up on the idea that corporations are these highly efficient beasts?

Just because profit is your goal and you succeed doesn't mean you did it in a highly efficient and effective way.

Also, most companies barely survive 5 years. Our government needs to take a slightly longer-than-the-next-quarter's-results view.

 

[interchange]

I think the sentiments you have expressed regarding the culture of America are very important and concerning.

And I say so in complete disconnection of the politics that have been tied to them.

 

[Zaap]

Much as I agree with some of this, the problem is: I don't believe Trump is the person who's going to solve any of it.

Now, I'm willing to wait and see what actually happens during his administration. But I see the best case scenario just being: Trump's admin keeps the government out of the way of business for at least 4 years (in so much as that's even possible) and in a climate of not being punished for being successful, businesses and entrepreneurs create more jobs.

That IS actually the way business and most jobs work, despite all the horseshit people have bought that the president actually *creates* jobs in the private sector. (Pure idiocy that too many stupid people believe.)

But as far as any policies that really change our government much and make it more efficient, or saving any money and controlling spending, ending rampant dependance on govt handouts, or some sweeping revelations from Trump and his people based on some vast knowledge of business that no one else has... and all the other magic bullet bullshit... meh. Don't hold your breath.

 

[norseamd]

I think the sentiments you have expressed regarding the culture of America are very important and concerning.

And I say so in complete disconnection of the politics that have been tied to them.

 

[realibrad]

Oh, are you saying you want us to place people over profits?
Thereby giving your fellow Americans a place in the economy and, through that liquidity, the freedom and dignity they deserve?
Surely we can agree on principle that the working poor are not free, as a case study of Foxconn and their suicide nets will attest.

It's already within today's budget. It'd be more like a reorganization and string cutting. A simplification of today's bureaucracy.
Let us not add to the number of things Republicans claim to stand for yet fail to act on.

Capitalism (Free Market) tries to use resources efficiently. As resources are used efficiently it reduces the cost per unit when all other factors are held constant. So all inputs have competitive pressure to reduce costs so long as that is more efficient. Labor is not the only thing that has downward pressure. So while the price of labor has gone down, so has all other inputs. You can see this even with products that have very little labor inputs.

The working poor are more free under capitalism. The reason people go to work for Foxconn is because even under those horrible conditions, its still better than their other options. If people are actually free to choose, then they are more free and likely to move up. The reality is that many are not free too choose and cannot leave employment at will, but then that is not a free market and thus not capitalism.

It seems like a lot of people think that corruption and
cronyism are part of capitalism, and that is incorrect. Those are things of human nature that will find their way into any structure. The reality is that democracy and capitalism are the best systems for dealing with those things.

 

[norseamd]

Capitalism (Free Market) tries to use resources efficiently. As resources are used efficiently it reduces the cost per unit when all other factors are held constant. So all inputs have competitive pressure to reduce costs so long as that is more efficient. Labor is not the only thing that has downward pressure. So while the price of labor has gone down, so has all other inputs. You can see this even with products that have very little labor inputs.

The working poor are more free under capitalism. The reason people go to work for Foxconn is because even under those horrible conditions, its still better than their other options. If people are actually free to choose, then they are more free and likely to move up. The reality is that many are not free too choose and cannot leave employment at will, but then that is not a free market and thus not capitalism.

It seems like a lot of people think that corruption and cronyism are part of capitalism, and that is incorrect. Those are things of human nature that will find their way into any structure. The reality is that democracy and capitalism are the best systems for dealing with those things.

Thats not entirely true. That doesnt mean capitalism is a exceptionally horrendous system. Unlike "faux communists", many Marxists, and those who have been influenced by Marxism, actually sing praises of capitalism. And in fact it is Karl Marx himself who has said some good things about capitalism, and he believed it was a necessary step from older more ancient societies before they could move on to communism. "Capitalism" has been great for expanding the economy and even lifting the masses into a nicer place than they were before, and its a far better system than many others, particularly many of those that have come before in world history, but its still a problematic system, and one that has mass inequality, and one that is also very unstable.

 

[realibrad]

Thats not entirely true. That doesnt mean capitalism is a exceptionally horrendous system. Unlike "faux communists", many Marxists, and those who have been influenced by Marxism, actually sing praises of capitalism. And in fact it is Karl Marx himself who has said some good things about capitalism, and he believed it was a necessary step from older more ancient societies before they could move on to communism. "Capitalism" has been great for expanding the economy and even lifting the masses into a nicer place than they were before, and its a far better system than many others, particularly many of those that have come before in world history, but its still a problematic system, and one that has mass inequality, and one that is also very unstable.

Do you mind telling me what you disagree with? You linked a vid but its almost 30min long and will take a while to go through.

 

[agent00f]

Much as I agree with some of this, the problem is: I don't believe Trump is the person who's going to solve any of it.

Now, I'm willing to wait and see what actually happens during his administration. But I see the best case scenario just being: Trump's admin keeps the government out of the way of business for at least 4 years (in so much as that's even possible) and in a climate of not being punished for being successful, businesses and entrepreneurs create more jobs.

That IS actually the way business and most jobs work, despite all the horseshit people have bought that the president actually *creates* jobs in the private sector. (Pure idiocy that too many stupid people believe.)

But as far as any policies that really change our government much and make it more efficient, or saving any money and controlling spending, ending rampant dependance on govt handouts, or some sweeping revelations from Trump and his people based on some vast knowledge of business that no one else has... and all the other magic bullet bullshit... meh. Don't hold your breath.

Capitalism (Free Market) tries to use resources efficiently. As resources are used efficiently it reduces the cost per unit when all other factors are held constant. So all inputs have competitive pressure to reduce costs so long as that is more efficient. Labor is not the only thing that has downward pressure. So while the price of labor has gone down, so has all other inputs. You can see this even with products that have very little labor inputs.

The working poor are more free under capitalism. The reason people go to work for Foxconn is because even under those horrible conditions, its still better than their other options. If people are actually free to choose, then they are more free and likely to move up. The reality is that many are not free too choose and cannot leave employment at will, but then that is not a free market and thus not capitalism.

It seems like a lot of people think that corruption and
cronyism are part of capitalism, and that is incorrect. Those are things of human nature that will find their way into any structure. The reality is that democracy and capitalism are the best systems for dealing with those things.

Good think da gubmint hires people who actually know something about economics to consult on economics issues.

Da best part: "It seems like a lot of people think that corruption and cronyism are part of capitalism, and that is incorrect". Seems pretty obvious that monopolizing, rigging prices and so on are the best way to make money in an otherwise competitive market. Que that cannot happen in Real capitalism because some right wing blog told me so, LOL.

 

[werepossum]

Maybe just maybe we should allow Trump to take office and actually doing something instead of worrying about what may or may not happen.

lol +1

I applaud the OP's sentiment, but Trump started with a great education, great connections, the strength of his father's reputation, and a couple million dollars, with the near certainty that many more millions would follow should he fail. He's an excellent businessman, but not exactly a rags to riches story for the silver screen.

Also, with very few exceptions Congress spends money, not the President. The Democrats and the media (but I repeat myself) have gotten very good at forcing the Pubbies to cave for political reasons, but every Obama budget since the Pubbies won back Congress has been DOA. That is bipartisan spending, not Obama spending.

 

[realibrad]

Good think da gubmint hires people who actually know something about economics to consult on economics issues.

Da best part: "It seems like a lot of people think that corruption and cronyism are part of capitalism, and that is incorrect". Seems pretty obvious that monopolizing, rigging prices and so on are the best way to make money in an otherwise competitive market. Que that cannot happen in Real capitalism because some right wing blog told me so, LOL.

Ok dummy, tell me a system that stops the problems you list? Monopolizing and rigging prices are not free markets, but give me a system that stops that.