Less than $900, Maximum Upgradability

[TheWrongTree]

My current machine is about to be demoted to the kids' table (the kids will be happy with it). It is an AMD 3800+ X2, ASUS Motherboard with a 6800GS AGP video card. They will be keeping their case (lots of pretty lights, they love it), keyboard, mouse, monitor and speakers, and I will be keeping my case (Tt Soprano, black), keyboard, mouse, monitor and speakers. The new machine will therefore be mostly new, but not entirely. I use my computer for gaming (WoW, FEAR, HL2, CS:S, BioShock, etc.) My main objective is to keep my budget around $900, build a decent new machine that will be better than what I have currently, but give me the ability to upgrade to a much higher level of goodness later. So motherboard and power supply seemed important to be better than they have to be. Everything else I kind of looked at as "okay, this will work and keep my budget low" and whatever money I have left I'll spend on getting the best video card that I can so that when I go Crossfire, I can potentially consider purchasing another of the same card, rather than buying two new ones.


Here are the parts that I am considering using (and the approximate price that I can get them for - mostly from Newegg, since I like them and trust them):
Motherboard ($170)
MSI K9A2 Platinum I think this gives me a decent upgrade path for both video and CPU so should keep the basic motherboard useable for 3 or 4 years. I chose an AM2+ because I've had AMD processors for the past two machines and have been happy with them. I'm not sure I'd qualify as an AMD fanboy... but I am comfortable with them. This particular motherboard gives me the option of up to 4 GPU's at 8X or two at 16X and also the option of a physics processor or third or fourth GPU. It also is set for the Phenom once they are ready for prime time (I don't think they are yet) and I have some pressing need to have four cores. I don't have any past experience with MSI, but have read decent reviews of their stuff. I have always used ASUS in the past and haven't had any major issues with them. Definitely open to thoughts on this particular motherboard or others that are comparable in features.

Processor ($95)
AMD Athlon X2 5000+ Black Edition I chose this one because it is kind of on the cusp of where prices start to go up precipitously and gives me the ability to overclock, should I choose to do that (though I'll probably just feel good knowing I COULD and then purchase a Phenom once they get everything ironed out with them).

CPU FAN ($48)
ZALMAN CNPS 9500 CPU FAN Because the 5000+ doesn't come with a fan and I have always liked the looks of these (my case has a side window). They have a pretty decent rep, I think.

PSU ($160)
Silverstone ST75F 750 Watt PSU Okay, I chose this for two reasons. One, it is beefy and modular and seems like a bit of overkill so I don't have to worry about upgrading it when I go Crossfire, and also because it is the power supply that Falcon Northwest uses in their builds and I've known three people who have purchased machines from them and they've all been monsters so I suspect they know what they're doing.

GPU ($199)
GeCube Radeon HD 3850 512MB DDR3 RAM... not as ridiculously priced as the 3870, but near in performance. This was a stretch for me. I have always had nVidia cards and the only experience I have with an ATI card is one that I put in a girlfriend's computer 4 or 5 years ago that never worked right and ended up being replaced by an nVidia (back when they were all AGP and things were 'simpler'). However, I have read great things about this generation and I'm thinking I'll take the plunge. Expecting to add a second (and maybe a third and fourth) at some point in the not too distant future.

RAM ($50)
OCZ 2GB RAM . I have had good luck with OCZ RAM in the past (it's in all my current machines) and the price of this seems good. Mostly a price play, though. Cheapest 2GB I could find from a brand that I trust.

HDD ($70)
WD Caviar SE 16 250GB HDD Strictly a price play. I figure I'll go RAID later with faster drives. Have had no issues with WD drives in the past.


OS ($110)
Windows Vista Home Premium 64 bit. Yeah, I know. It's slower than XP. It's got issues. It's just something I've been wanting to play with. I checked that all the games that I play regularly will run on Vista 64, and they do. Also made sure that I was able to find at least one instance of someone stating that they were able to get each of these bits of hardware running on Vista 64 so I am moderately certain they'll all work.


Other bits
I am going to keep my current CD/DVD drive. It's an ASUS combo drive. A couple years old but still working just fine for what I want it to do, which is burn or rip the ocassional CD, watch the very ocassional DVD, but mostly load up whatever the game or application of the day is.

Monitor is a 22" Viewsonic 1680x1050 native resolution. Seems lovely enough to me. Perhaps with the new GPU I'll feel the need to upgrade this too. I dunno. Not right now though.

I'm not using surround sound. I play music from this computer (it's in my home office) while working from some Boston Acoustics 2.1 speakers and/or headphones.

Mouse is an MS Laser Mouse 6000

Keyboard is a MS Natural 4000. I don't like the wireless desktops. Don't ask me why. I just don't. lol

Thank you all in advance for your thoughtful opinions!!

 

[MarcVenice]

Holy moly, this build is erm, crappy, sorry to say that. You are overclocking, so you MUST go the Intel route. Intel is simply better, they overclock better, consume less power, and are in fact equally 'cheap' as AMD, if not even cheaper. I'm simply copy/pasting a post I made earlier:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...7031&Tpk=abit%2bip35-e motherboard, you might need something more expensive if you want e-sata / firewire. You could also buy a gigabyte ds3l instead, for the same money. No crossfire or sli though, but please, read on !!!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16819115037 shop around for better prices, but this is plenty fast for photo/video editing and games. In a year or two you simple buy a qaudcore. If you want to save some easy money, buy a e2180 or e4500 instead, those overclock to 3.0ghz quite easy, and cost 80-125$.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820231122 can't really go wrong with this ram, cheap as it is, no reason not to get 2x2gb.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16822152052 quiet and cool running HD, 500gb is where you pay the least for each GB. RAID is a waste, stop considering it when you are on a 'budget'.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817256007 I'd get this PSU, it's even MORE overkill, haha, but awesome price AR. Not modular though. You should consider other units too though, for a lot less money.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814127329 you don't buy a HD3850 512mb for 180$, when you can get this for 210$, it honestly performs like at least 25% faster. Crossfiring HD3850's is ridiculous too btw.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16835154001 that's the cooler to get when spending 45$.

Think about this, you are spending major bucks on a powersupply, when you could save 100$ on it easily and buy a more powerfull videocard right now instead. Crossfire/SLI is really only an option when you buy 2 powerfull videocards right now. It's no considered a worthwhile upgrade path, because the money you save on the motherboard and PSU right now, can be 'saved' and put towards a new videocard by the time you would otherwise consider going SLI/Crossfire. Single videocards will remain better then multi gpu solutions for a little longer. So think it over.

 

[TheWrongTree]

Hmm.. Crappy. What's crappy, exactly? I'm gonna have to ask questions. lol

How is a processor that is $240 equally as cheap as one that is $100? I don't think I'm seeing your logic there.

The motherboard you suggest doesn't give me the option of SLI or Crossfire. I will be doing that in the very near future (a month or two, probably). This seems like a budget board. I didn't look too hard because of the expense of the processor though.

I like the modular power supply, so I think I'd stick with that one. But yeah, the 850 is nice too.

Definitely did consider the additional RAM. I'm not sure if there is a major value to 4GB vs. only 2? So I figured I'd give 2 a try first. If it feels tentative, I'll spring for another 2.

500GB... I have a 250 on my current machine and I'm not even in the neighborhood of filling it up. I dunno. Seems like a waste to me unless it helps speed. I was thinking the RAID that is used to increase performance (whichever that is... I've not ever done a RAID setup... never felt the need really... but the idea seems good.) No?

Why is crossfiring 3850's ridiculous? Are they inherently bad at it or something? I read some reviews of them and they seem to be as good or better than all of the comparable nVidia's. I am truly up in the air on the video card. The only reason I selected the 3850 was because it seems like with the AMD setup and the mobo I had chosen that this gave me the best bang for my buck. So what's actually bad about 3850's (or crossfiring them)?

I gotta stick with the Zalman solely because I think they're pretty and I think they'll work just fine lol

 

[MarcVenice]

The 240$ cpu fits your budget, hence I mentioned it, besides it can be had for 190$ at other places. I also mentioned the e2180 and the e4500 for 80$-125$ respectively which compete with AMD's cpu very well, especially when overclocking, because AMD simply can not match a 3,0ghz Intel core 2 duo, they don't have anything equally fast at stock speeds, and not even when overclocking the highest-end AMD cpu.

This mobo, http://www.newegg.com/Product/...2E16813131232&Tpk=750i also offers SLI. This is the cheapest Crossfire mobo I could find, with 2x pci-e 16x slots. http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128080 I'd still have those over a AMD/AM2 setup though.

When considering raid, then getting 4gb over 2gb is not even debatable It gives far more performance then going with raid ever will, for a 'normal' user like yourself. It's also cheap, so why not ? If you do go with 2gb, make sure you get a 2gb stick, and not 2x1gb!!!

The HD, ok, if 250gb does it for you, nothing wrong with it. Just 35$ extra on those 70$ DOUBLES the space though, best bang for buck and stuff ? Consider it.

Crossfiring 2 HD3850's is ridiculous, because you need a big powersupply and a Crossfire capable motherboard, both come at a price premium. Save money on the PSU/MOBO instead, and buy a SINGLE videocard, that is equally fast as 2 crossfired HD3850's instead. Crossfire is also somewhat troublesome, it doesn't always scale 100%, let alone 50% in a lot of games. You would be better of with HD3870 X2 instead, that will completely OWN crossfired HD3850's. A bit more 'normal' would be just to go with a single 8800 GT overclocked for 210$, or a 8800GTS 512mb, for 260$. And just pocket all the saved money on the PSU/Mobo.

The zalman does look pretty, and it works well. The tuniq is better, but it's not like the zalman sucks or anything, so you'll be fine with either

 

[TheWrongTree]

Interesting. I still have questions, though! lol

Okay, so if I pick one of those mobos (or some other Intel based one) and get the e4500 which runs at 2.2GHz... will that run as fast as an AMD 5000+ running at 2.6? Does the extra cache or whatever it is that the Intels do better these days make these comparable? Honest question, I really know very little about what Intel has been up to the last couple of years which was why I went with AMD even though I read on many review sites that the Intels were faster by some amount right now, especially at the high end. Are these lower-middle of the road processors also faster than the lower-middle of the road AMD's? And in the interest of full disclosure, would you consider yourself an Intel fanboy? lol

And 4GB definitely a major performance increase over 2? I will consider this. ANd good point on the 2 gig sticks. Might want to have 8 gigs at some point.

I agree on the 3870X2, but it's $450 right now. That would blow my budget no matter what other changes I make lol

But if I switched to an Intel based board, I would almost definitely switch to an nVidia card since I only went with the ATi because of the mobo that I thought I liked to start with. I was just thinking that since AMD and ATi are the same company now, they'd be more likely to work better together. So probably one of the G92 8800's.

I'll do some more research on the Intels, I guess. I'm not sold, but I guess it's worth putting a little more thought into.

 

[chinaman1472]

Vista 64 Bit + 2GB RAM = bad choice. Get 4GB. No real reason to do RAID either, the real world performance increase is virtually unnoticeable.

1 really good GPU > 2 not so good GPUs. Better spending the same amount of cash on 1 high end video card than 2 low-mid end cards. SLi/CF is not an upgrade path, and it's definitely not made for 2 low end cards. 3870 or 8800GT would be the "cheapest" cards to CF/SLi. 2x 3850s will run you at least $340, in which you can an 8800 GTS that I believe beats it. At your price, you might as well get the 3870X2 like Marc mentioned. SLi/CF is not meant for "budget" builds. It's meant for the high end spectrum, and probably the worst dollar to performance ratio.

Corsair 520HX would probably be fine for your build, even if you end up with a 3870X2, but I guess it never really hurts to get more.

 

[TheWrongTree]

ahhh... I gotcha. So Crossfire or SLI.... not like having DOUBLE the GPU power, even though there are two there. I see these reviews and they all scream about how great SLI or Crossfire is, but I always wonder what the real world value is. Not that great, eh?

ANd yeah, I think you're right about the PSU... but I just figure it's better to have too good/too much power than not enough. Seems like one of the things you shouldn't skimp on.

chinaman, how do you like your HD monitor? Is it much clearer than a regular LCD like I have (see post above)? I have been considering doing that, but haven't seen one in action yet and don't know whether it's worth rushing to do it sooner rather than whenever I decide I need a new monitor.

 

[MarcVenice]

You are right about not skimping on the PSU. A normal rig won't draw more then 250w of power though, so a qaulity 500w PSU is really all you need. No, I'm not an Intel fanboy, I just tell ppl to get Intel because that's where the most bang for buck is right now. A e4500 is equally fast, if not a little faster, then a 2.6ghz AMD 5000+. But, when overclocked to 3.0ghz, both of them, the e4500 is like 25% faster !!! And, AMD/NVIDIA or Intel/AMD works just fine, don't worry about the compatability.

 

[TheWrongTree]

Did a little looking at Tom's Hardware and other places to try to compare the comparable Intel vs. AMD processors... I think I'd have to step up to one of those $170ish Conroe Intels to get roughly equal stock speed performance to a 5000+.

I dunno... I think that I am leaning towards sticking with the AMD. It looks like the highest end models of the Intels are faster than the current highest AMD models, but I know that AMD is getting ready to come out with the FX versions of the Phenoms and I think that will level the playing field and I will have a good upgrade path there for awhile. I don't think that I'd be badly served going either way... but since I know AMD better, I feel I'm less likely to make a bad decision and buy something stupid.

 

[chinaman1472]

I love it, I've had it for about 15 months now. My only 3 gripes are:
- 1360x768 maximum resolution. Everything's huge. My MacBook has a 13" screen with a 1280x800 resolution and everything looks so tiny lol.
- Huge dot pitch/pixel making a blurry picture on some occasions. IE for example has a very blurry font while Firefox is normal. I see after images/ghosting of my pointer regardless whether it is in motion or not. This is really only a problem with still objects. Some objects create more blur/noise than other objects. This isn't an issue when things are in motion though, simply because you don't have time to look for such minuscule things during a frag match .
- 1 dead pixel

Due to my resolution to size ratio, I find monitors, designed to be monitors, have a much clearer picture due to a smaller dot pitch and higher resolutions.

 

[Twsmit]

Yeah i agree with the crappy statements.

If I were you I would get something like this:

$140 P35 Mobo - Asus P5K-E is an option
$125 - Intel E4500
$85 - 4GB Ram 2x 2GB G.Skill as a brand? there are many to choose from
$230 - 8800GT 512MB version
$105 - 500GB SATA 3.0 HDD pick your brand...
$90 - Silverstone PSU, pick your model...

Total: $775

If you must add Vista as your OS you still come under $900, you get great performance today and a decent upgrade path in the future. Remember socket AM2 and 775 as well as DDR2 will be gradually phased out in the next 2 years, as will pretty much everything in computers. Buy for what is fast now and has a 6-12 month upgrade path, after that all bets are off and it's impossible to make a perfect decision. Also multi GPU rigs have failed to impress, typically you should only go multi GPU early on, not as an upgrade path because there will always be newer faster cards that make SLI/CF a poor choice for the money as a later upgrade.

 

[heyheybooboo]

X2 5400+ 2.8GHz AM2 65W - OEM
same price - IMC = 800mhz. I think the 2.6 runs 740.

I got a MSI K9A2 Platinum 790fx on sale for $150 and think it's great
AMD Overdrive (v2.14) runs well on it - seems to have great potential. BIOS OC on the MSI also has good options .... On stock volts you should hit 3.2-3.3GHz no problem. I use the optical out to my SS receiver and the audio is great.

GPU prices are shakin' out and headed lower but give consideration to the VisionTek Radeon HD 3870 512MB 256-bit GDDR4.

You missed out on the HD 2900 pro's for $145/each. I was a virgin to Crossfire but was quite impressed. Benched FEAR and got 50% increase on average frame rates - 70% on max. Minimum fps was around 35%. With 4xAA & 16xAF no less ....

I'm not a big 'gaming' guy but would suggest you do a little research. Some games may show a 50% increase in fps - some less. It also depends on the 'optimization' for the screen resolution. Adjusting the screen resolution one notch up or down can make a really big difference ...

I kinda agree on the "Crossfire" upgrade conundrum above. I got lucky when I jumped on the 2900s. You might get lucky if nVidia could get their sheet together on the 9600gt's as that could drop the price on the 3870's $20-$30 ....

If you are patient and can ride it out . . . .

 

[TheWrongTree]

Originally posted by: Twsmit
Yeah i agree with the crappy statements.

If I were you I would get something like this:

$140 P35 Mobo - Asus P5K-E is an option
$125 - Intel E4500
$85 - 4GB Ram 2x 2GB G.Skill as a brand? there are many to choose from
$230 - 8800GT 512MB version
$105 - 500GB SATA 3.0 HDD pick your brand...
$90 - Silverstone PSU, pick your model...

Total: $775

If you must add Vista as your OS you still come under $900, you get great performance today and a decent upgrade path in the future. Remember socket AM2 and 775 as well as DDR2 will be gradually phased out in the next 2 years, as will pretty much everything in computers. Buy for what is fast now and has a 6-12 month upgrade path, after that all bets are off and it's impossible to make a perfect decision. Also multi GPU rigs have failed to impress, typically you should only go multi GPU early on, not as an upgrade path because there will always be newer faster cards that make SLI/CF a poor choice for the money as a later upgrade.

I'm still not feeling the Intel over the AMD for previously stated reasons, unless someone's got a good argument for it. Not that I think the Intel is not fine or even perhaps better, just not by enough to make me want to enter unfamiliar territory to gain what would likely not be a noticeable performance increase.

 

[Twsmit]

Not noticeable??? Check out this review, the 5000+ vs the E4500 at stock speeds. Yes they are similar at stock, but the E4500 beats it every time.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuch...howdoc.aspx?i=3112&p=8

Remember this is 2.6ghz vs 2.2ghz. Now take into consideration overclocking. The E4500 can easily hit 3.0ghz, the 5000+ maybe, maybe not that speed.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuch...owdoc.aspx?i=3112&p=14

The value proposition is just not there, the AMD chip is $100 for medium range performance and limited overclock potential. The Intel is $125 and it is overall much faster at stock speeds and has massive headroom to OC later on. At the absolute very least even removing OCing, the Intel is faster, but by all accounts the Intel will hit at least 3.0ghz on the stock cooler and will decimate the X2 5000+.

Mind you this is coming from a guy who is currently on an AMD machine and has been running them for the last 4 years. There is simply no denying that Intel is the performance leader right now, this is similar to the A64 vs P4 back a few years ago.



EDIT: Also remember in your original config you had factored in a $50 cooler for your $100 CPU, that right there makes it more expensive and even less of a value over a cheap Intel on stock cooling.

 

[jterrell]

You go Intel right now because it is by far the better value.

It overclocks better, runs cooler and essentially is what AMD was when you fell in love with them.

MOBO: Determine what you need exactly. Don't buy junk you'll never use because those features reduce performance at times and almost always cost more. That Abit Marc suggested is a great overclocker.

At 900 you could really have a smoking system and after the upgrade you will never worry about the fact you sold your soul to Intel

 

[HawkeyeRecon2]

Hi WrongTree,

When I first posted here a week ago, I was intending to purchase the AMD 5000+. I was planning on getting an ASUS board w/ NVidea chipset for future SLI'ing. After a ton of research this week I've changed my mind and today ordered:

Intel e2180
P35 DS3L
2x2GB Gskill DDR2 800 PC2 6400
MSI 8800GT OC

I should be able to over clock the chip and the video card is already OC'd and has an aftermarket fan built in (so does that make it not aftermarket then???)

I really was planning on buying an AMD because I like what they did and I didn't want to jump to Intel. Then after awhile I realized why should I get burnt by staying loyal to AMD? I only have so much $$$ to spend for my machine, and I want it to be the best it can be for the price. Hopefully next time AMD will offer the best solution for my needs, but they don't now.

 

[MyLeftNut]

Sorry for what I'm about to say, but it would be stupid to buy an AMD cpu right now when Intel ones outperform it. I'll let you do the rest of the thinking...

 

[TheWrongTree]

All interesting points of view worthy of considering. I am definitely going to spend some time looking at the Intel and what the future roadmaps for both are like. I currently still think I like AMD better because I am comfortable with them. Not really anything more than that. Perhaps it is time to jump ship.

Thanks for giving me pause for thought, guys. Back to the reading material I go

 

[chinaman1472]

Building a machine with future proof in mind is a horrible idea. New motherboards (and chipsets) with more updated settings, features, and better support will be out as older motherboards get discontinued in production and support.

Your best bet for future proofing for Intel would be to get an E21XX or E4500 series, and upgrade to a Wolfdale or Yorkfield chip in a year or two. For AMD, the roadmap seems less revealed for their future processors. But the way I see it: If buying a new motherboard for $100-150 every 2-5 years puts a cramp in your budget, it's probably not wise to spend money on a PC to begin with.

 

[TheWrongTree]

haha, point well taken chinaman. No, it's not the money replacing the mb that is the issue, it's all the hassle that goes with that. I would much rather replace a CPU and/or graphics card after a year or two and maybe just have some driver updates or a BIOS flash to do rather than take apart the whole computer and replace the motherboard and all the parts. If that gets me through another year or two, that's great. More a function of effort than money.

As you might guess from the original equipment that I chose, I'm not looking to be bleeding edge here. Just pretty decent and with the capability to get more decent in the future with as little major effort as possible. Some people want to build a new computer every year. More power to them. I just want mine to work for me for what I do for as long as it reasonably can with upgrades along the way to keep it doing just that.

 

[TheWrongTree]

Soooo... I ordered pretty much what I was planning on ordering. I know you're all shocked lol Anyway, I wanted to stop in and thank everyone for their advice and give a quick update.

I spent the extra money to get everything here yesterday and put it together last night.

Everything booted up first time, Vista recognized it all, and I was up and running. Vista only took about 45 minutes to install and another half hour or so to download and install updates.

Overall, I'm pleasantly surprised. After so many people said my choices were crappy, I had a brief moment of uncertainty before I clicked the Submit button on the order. You all should know that while I think you're probably correct that Intel is better on the bleeding edge, this machine is very cool. I think too many people worry about the relatively small differences in functional reality that all those benchmarks and tests represent. A very fast Intel and a very fast AMD are both going to be very fast.

Anyway, I haven't installed much on it, since WoW was going to take a month to download updates again, I figured I'd do that first. I just spent some time on that just to see what the difference is and now I can crank up every option and I still get 100-150 fps in most places.

I'll get some more hardware intensive games going later when I have some more time and I'm also planning on running a couple of benchmarks that I ran on the old rig to see the difference. If anyone's interested I'll be happy to post results.

Good luck to all of you who are building or considering, and thank you to those of you who come around to provide insight and knowledge.

 

[imported_wired247]

I would've told you to save up your money until you can build EXACTLY what you think you will WANT by the end of 2-3 months. chances are, you'd get a superior system for cheaper than you thought.

The responses in this thread are good and they're here to help you.

I guess you made your decision and not everyone has to agree with it, but for someone who is on a budget you made some questionable decisions IMO (too much power and too expensive PSU, buy a cheapo processor then spend $50+ to cool it... buying last generation video card so that you can have the satisfaction of Xfire, even if $/performance won't be up to par)

 

[heyheybooboo]

Looks good. Congratulations

Let us know when you OC that HD3850 (and when you put those 4 x 6Pin PCIe connectors to work)

Anand did an article on CrossFireX yesterday - on the MSI 790fx. Showed an increase of 2087% across the board in every game

 

[TheWrongTree]

Originally posted by: wired247
I would've told you to save up your money until you can build EXACTLY what you think you will WANT by the end of 2-3 months. chances are, you'd get a superior system for cheaper than you thought.

The responses in this thread are good and they're here to help you.

I guess you made your decision and not everyone has to agree with it, but for someone who is on a budget you made some questionable decisions IMO (too much power and too expensive PSU, buy a cheapo processor then spend $50+ to cool it... buying last generation video card so that you can have the satisfaction of Xfire, even if $/performance won't be up to par)

In the grand scheme of things, no one has to agree with it but me. I made some decisions that are based on my own knowledge and expectations which may not be the same as yours or anyone else's. And at the end of 2-3 months, I will definitely have exactly what I want.