Less is more Pro (for Windows it seems)

[ShadeX]

Well, you posted your config...

As for the 'advantage'. I don't care where you put the partition, the head seek time kills the benefit.

Box specs : A7N8X Deluxe AMD 2600+ 1GBDDR400, 40GB Seagate 7200 ATA100 Sys HD 120GB Seagate 7200 SATA Data HD, GF4-4200. So, my box isnt holding XP back ,)

So i did...... in a previous post..... But stay w/ me on this one. IF i say, am working on a BIG image, say a fair few hundred MB, the image itself, along other data is on the SATA drive. The pagefile is on the ATA drive. Even if once in a while Win fetches a few sys files, it wont bother the ATA drive all that much, cause the bulk data isnt there ,)

btw, nasty thing on the .txt files... Or any file for that matter, since they all sem to come with Execute bit when created. Do you know what Modify is for? If Read&Execute is off, so goes Modify. But i can still Read/Write the file. So, modify what? The permissions?

Edit: btw bsobel, if i were to set cluster size 8192 on the whole damn Sys drive, it would lead to wasted space overkill. If i split partitions, i can keep my Sys files on a 1024 cluster size AND have my pagefile on a separate cluster size 8192 partition. Tough to be true, i dont have any hard data on wheter or not cluster size helps with page file. It does with huge data files, so it should also help on transfer of large data chunks to/from pagefile, but its just wishfull thinking, cause i have no hard evidence. Works well tough ,)

 

[imported_goku]

*Agreed* bsobel and n0cmonkey (I swear to go they gotta be the same person) have a tendacy to think the M$ engineers build a very optimized operating system in which system resources are spent *Wisely and will only have processes running when they *need to be running. Saying the word VM or Page file is like saying, "Buy one get one free Shoe Sale at GUCCI" to a group of women, agressive and attack all who get in thier way or in this case attack all who do not agree with thier views. bsobel and n0cmonkey (if you are not one) don't comment on what I have to say, because I just really couldn't care less on what you have to say.








PS. How in the fsck did those two get Elite Member status? Seems to me they have a friend working at anandtech!

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: goku2100
*Agreed* bsobel and n0cmonkey (I swear to go they gotta be the same person) have a tendacy to think the M$ engineers build a very optimized operating system in which system resources are spent *Wisely and will only have processes running when they *need to be running. Saying the word VM or Page file is like saying, "Buy one get one free Shoe Sale at GUCCI" to a group of women, agressive and attack all who get in thier way or in this case attack all who do not agree with thier views. bsobel and n0cmonkey (if you are not one) don't comment on what I have to say, because I just really couldn't care less on what you have to say.








PS. How in the fsck did those two get Elite Member status? Seems to me they have a friend working at anandtech!

My nomination for most ignorant post of the year.

P.S. They're Elite because they're smarter and more helpful than you.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: goku2100
*Agreed* bsobel and n0cmonkey (I swear to go they gotta be the same person)

Bill's nicer than I am.

have a tendacy to think the M$ engineers build a very optimized operating system in which system resources are spent *Wisely and will only have processes running when they *need to be running. Saying the word VM or Page file is like saying, "Buy one get one free Shoe Sale at GUCCI" to a group of women, agressive and attack all who get in thier way or in this case attack all who do not agree with thier views. bsobel and n0cmonkey (if you are not one) don't comment on what I have to say, because I just really couldn't care less on what you have to say.

No, I expect that Microsoft engineers know more about what is going on in Windows than some little pissant on the internet. How are you going to know what is the best size for your pagefile if you don't understand the system inside and out?

We get to see morons talking about disabling their pagefiles, day in and day out. Does it give them any benefit? Absolutely not. Have you done any testing to see how much of a performance hit you get from messing with the pagefile? Knowing the tiniest amount about Bill's professional life that I can say with confidence tht he has seen or even performed the tests.

Me? I'm not a tweaker. I'm guessing that since the idiots at Microsoft aren't in control of everything, some of the engineers give a damn about the quality of work they produce. They aren't going to release something totally broken and retarded to the business market, especially if they want to compete with the, at one time, big players. If you want to compete with Solaris, HP-UX, IBM mainframes, Tru64, and VMS you're going to have to produce a decent product. And frankly, 2k and XP are decent products.

PS. How in the fsck did those two get Elite Member status? Seems to me they have a friend working at anandtech!

This comment was way out of line. Don't think I deserve elite? Take it up with the administration of the site. I didn't ask for the title, others requested that I get it. If a majority of my posts outside of ATOT (because really, that forum doesn't count ) aren't helpful, truthful, or whatnot show the mods proof. They can take away the silly title, ban me, and send wild dogs after me.

You don't want to get personal, not here, not now.

 

[imported_goku]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I'm guessing that since the idiots at Microsoft aren't in control of everything, some of the engineers give a damn about the quality of work they produce. They aren't going to release something totally broken and retarded to the business market, especially if they want to compete with the, at one time, big players. If you want to compete with Solaris, HP-UX, IBM mainframes, Tru64, and VMS you're going to have to produce a decent product. And frankly, 2k and XP are decent products.

Wow, no wonder why he thinks windows' management of page file and other features are at peak efficiency, because he is completely delusional about the efficiency of the Windows operating system not to mention the security holes they have to patch up every two weeks. When you say "They aren't going to release something totally broken and retarded to the business market" what do you mean by that? Are you saying that all the thousands of security holes that have to be patched up throughout Window's exsistance are merely "Enhancements"? The Windows operating system is probably the only operating system to release soooo many patches that it has to COMBINE them into "Service Packs". Yes Windows operating system is a great operating system when it comes to hardware flexibility (How much hardware it can work with and how much software as well) but apparently the engineers DON'T give a damn about the quality of the work but simply *meeting* the demands of thier employer's. Had they given a damn about the quality of their work, I know there wouldn't be quite as many holes as there are today.


And for the Wonderful Mr.Chad, fsck off.

P.S This does not apply to ALL Elite Member but a select few, I would not consider belittling one because they think the User doesn't know some thing as helpful. A polite way to help some who MAY NOT know some thing is to say "Oh so you meant Blah blah blah"....

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Smilin

I know both OSs inside out and like the back of my hand. I'm far from being a newb, casual user or even power user.

I'll choose XP any day over 2000. If you choose differently then you don't know the OSs as well as you think you do.

Unless you perhaps have a copy of 2k and don't want to spend/can't spend the money for XP.

Yeah, well ok. That's the best reason for 2k over xp I know of.



Couple other catchups on this thread:

First, on the elite members: You will CONSTANTLY find these guys helping people out here and they know their crap. 'Nuf said.

Pagefile, Yep another dead topic. Go make some fancy schmancy adjustments then run some benchmarks. You'll likely find you accomplished very little if you didn't manage to slow your system down. Yes, under the right circumstances you can increase performance by tweaking it. But let's face it, you're a tweaker so you likely have a system decked out in plenty of system memory and running at aggressive timings.

Here are a couple things that help with your pagefile: 1. Set it to a fixed size and defrag your drive. 2. Put it on an altogether different spindle if you have one. That's it. Any tweaking beyond that is likely not going to make much difference. These tweaks assume you have some space to spare since you're not letting the file grow (you have to set it bigger than you otherwise would) or that you have another drive. Don't get silly.

There's always some new guy ready to challenge the knowledgeable veterans over the whole issue and generally make an ass out of him/herself. Eventually they will find themselves at the receiving end of half a dozen people telling them they are wrong. Typically they'll resort to outright flaming over the whole thing, a mod will step in and that's that.

rofl, just noticed someone in the thread... Goku, any of this sounding familiar yet?

I'm honestly surprised you haven't been banned yet. Look at you. Are you going to make a contribution to the thread or at least an intelligent argument? No, you're going to just outright flame a couple guys because you're all mad about making a tard of yourself on another thread.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: ShadeX

Edit: btw bsobel, if i were to set cluster size 8192 on the whole damn Sys drive, it would lead to wasted space overkill. If i split partitions, i can keep my Sys files on a 1024 cluster size AND have my pagefile on a separate cluster size 8192 partition. Tough to be true, i dont have any hard data on wheter or not cluster size helps with page file. It does with huge data files, so it should also help on transfer of large data chunks to/from pagefile, but its just wishfull thinking, cause i have no hard evidence. Works well tough ,)

hehe this falls into the "Gawd what a ton of work" category. I see where you're trying to go though. If you are really this dedicated to tweaking the whole thing you might consider: Keeping the pagefile on the same partition, but placing it near the middle cylinders of the drive where the MFT is. Use diskprobe to walk your disk to find where it's at. If you aren't concerned about space you can (on a second partition again) set your cluster size to be the same size as a memory page. You'll need to take care that you don't end up spanning an extra track though.

Makes me tired just thinking about it. I'd rather buy another stick of ram

 

[ShadeX]

Smilin, i barelly have use for 1G, give or take the odd day. This same moment im peaking at 350MB usage, and thats with a nice couple of things running. Why would i go out and buy 4G RAM and then have it sit unsused most of the time??? Take a look at www.grid.org. All that CPU that goes into Cancer Research Project is idle time. Right now we have over-resourced and underused boxes.

Good thinking though on setting the cluster size to the mem page... Though AFAICR (correct me if wrong) the page size is larger than the biggets cluster size available.

OT: tough i agree that goku went a bit out of line, he stated something true. When noc says

They aren't going to release something totally broken and retarded to the business market, especially if they want to compete with the, at one time, big players. If you want to compete with Solaris, HP-UX, IBM mainframes, Tru64, and VMS you're going to have to produce a decent product.

what doe heck is that? Blindingly refusing to see reality? Win isnt totally broken. Just a fair few bits. Its not retarded, just has its own way of going about. and doing stuff. Sheeshh man, going around and stating that Win is the be all and end all of OS's is like going around telling Linux is desktopt ready. Wishfull thinking and damn outright utopic.

OTHO, when he says that W2K and WXP are decent products, he is right. And so was NT4 mind you. Or 98SE despite all the mem leaks. IMHO on WinME was crap. All other faired pretty well for their time.

 

[Smilin]

It'll do 64k under XP/2003 at least.

You may kill your ability to use the built in defrag. 2003 should work, not sure on XP and I don't believe it will work under 2k.


Edit: The devil is in the details.. LOTS of reasons why XP is better than 2k.

 

[ShadeX]

Why would i want to use Diskeeper Lite, ups, Defrag? Sarcasm goes a long way ,)

Edit: Hmmm, cause its free.... And i can always go fetch pagedefrag at systeminternals. Or i could just buy Diskkeeper Pro... Hmmmm tough cookie....

 

[Smilin]

Use something else if you want. It's your money $$$

 

[ShadeX]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Use something else if you want. It's your money $$$

Actually its some company or other money ,) In my work i get to choose "toys" and sometimes keeping them ,P

 

[Spencer278]

Isn't the page size either 4k or something like 4 megs?

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: goku2100

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
I'm guessing that since the idiots at Microsoft aren't in control of everything, some of the engineers give a damn about the quality of work they produce. They aren't going to release something totally broken and retarded to the business market, especially if they want to compete with the, at one time, big players. If you want to compete with Solaris, HP-UX, IBM mainframes, Tru64, and VMS you're going to have to produce a decent product. And frankly, 2k and XP are decent products.

Wow, no wonder why he thinks windows' management of page file and other features are at peak efficiency, because he is completely delusional about the efficiency of the Windows operating system not to mention the security holes they have to patch up every two weeks. When you say "They aren't going to release something totally broken and retarded to the business market" what do you mean by that? Are you saying that all the thousands of security holes that have to be patched up throughout Window's exsistance are merely "Enhancements"? The Windows operating system is probably the only operating system to release soooo many patches that it has to COMBINE them into "Service Packs". Yes Windows operating system is a great operating system when it comes to hardware flexibility (How much hardware it can work with and how much software as well) but apparently the engineers DON'T give a damn about the quality of the work but simply *meeting* the demands of thier employer's. Had they given a damn about the quality of their work, I know there wouldn't be quite as many holes as there are today.


And for the Wonderful Mr.Chad, fsck off.

P.S This does not apply to ALL Elite Member but a select few, I would not consider belittling one because they think the User doesn't know some thing as helpful. A polite way to help some who MAY NOT know some thing is to say "Oh so you meant Blah blah blah"....

Ever patched a Solaris box?

 

[MrChad]

Originally posted by: goku2100
Wow, no wonder why he thinks windows' management of page file and other features are at peak efficiency, because he is completely delusional about the efficiency of the Windows operating system not to mention the security holes they have to patch up every two weeks. When you say "They aren't going to release something totally broken and retarded to the business market" what do you mean by that? Are you saying that all the thousands of security holes that have to be patched up throughout Window's exsistance are merely "Enhancements"? The Windows operating system is probably the only operating system to release soooo many patches that it has to COMBINE them into "Service Packs". Yes Windows operating system is a great operating system when it comes to hardware flexibility (How much hardware it can work with and how much software as well) but apparently the engineers DON'T give a damn about the quality of the work but simply *meeting* the demands of thier employer's. Had they given a damn about the quality of their work, I know there wouldn't be quite as many holes as there are today.

Let's establish a few truths first:

1. Windows is not the only operating system with security holes in it.
2. Windows and Internet Explorer are targeted by malicious coders far more heavily than alternative products because of their market share.
3. Bugs in Windows take longer to find and fix than bugs in, say, Linux. This is just a disadvantage of closed-source software development. Less eyes to look for flaws, less resources devoted to fixing them (of course, that's a subject for an entirely different thread ).
4. Microsoft developers are extremely talented and intelligent.

I'm not going to make excuses for Microsoft's security flaws. I admire the steps they've taken recently to address the problems, but those efforts are a little late in coming. Nonetheless, n0c's point (and it's a good one) is that with all the hardware compatibility, stability and features that Microsoft offers with Windows 2000 and XP, overall they are two quality, competitive products. Are they perfect? Absolutely not, but I challenge you to find a perfect consumer-level desktop operating system.

You're new here, and I don't want to get into a flame-fest with you, but if you're going to continue posting with that level of arrogance, you won't last long here. bsobel, n0c, Nothinman, Smilin and others here are extremely knowledgeable about the inner workings of Operating Systems. They have proven this expertise over years of helpful and constructive posts on this forum. You, on the otherhand, are unestablished here. Your posts are more inflammatory than helpful, and you've done nothing to establish your "expertise" in memory subsystems and other complex operating systems components. You can learn a lot from these guys if you're willing to listen.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: ShadeX
Smilin, i barelly have use for 1G, give or take the odd day. This same moment im peaking at 350MB usage, and thats with a nice couple of things running. Why would i go out and buy 4G RAM and then have it sit unsused most of the time??? Take a look at www.grid.org. All that CPU that goes into Cancer Research Project is idle time. Right now we have over-resourced and underused boxes.

Good thinking though on setting the cluster size to the mem page... Though AFAICR (correct me if wrong) the page size is larger than the biggets cluster size available.

OT: tough i agree that goku went a bit out of line, he stated something true. When noc says

They aren't going to release something totally broken and retarded to the business market, especially if they want to compete with the, at one time, big players. If you want to compete with Solaris, HP-UX, IBM mainframes, Tru64, and VMS you're going to have to produce a decent product.

what doe heck is that? Blindingly refusing to see reality? Win isnt totally broken. Just a fair few bits. Its not retarded, just has its own way of going about. and doing stuff. Sheeshh man, going around and stating that Win is the be all and end all of OS's is like going around telling Linux is desktopt ready. Wishfull thinking and damn outright utopic.

OTHO, when he says that W2K and WXP are decent products, he is right. And so was NT4 mind you. Or 98SE despite all the mem leaks. IMHO on WinME was crap. All other faired pretty well for their time.

Yes, I think Windows is the best, and that Linux is not desktop ready for anyone. :roll:

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: Spencer278
Isn't the page size either 4k or something like 4 megs?

Default page size is 4k, can be different under some scenarios.

Bill

 

[bsobel]

btw, nasty thing on the .txt files... Or any file for that matter, since they all sem to come with Execute bit when created. Do you know what Modify is for? If Read&Execute is off, so goes Modify. But i can still Read/Write the file. So, modify what? The permissions?

Modify is a step below 'Full Control', with modify rights you can do everything but delete subfolders and files, change permissions, or take ownership.

Bill

 

[imported_goku]

Yes I can *Agree* that Windows' is an overall good operating system legacy (excludes ME which was simply marketing/filler between SE and XP) but I think they still slack on things that I know they could have fixed. Had they spent more time (like XP and especially fricken ME) on debugging then I'm sure it wouldn't have turned out as bad as it did. Here is what I believe: Windows 98SE was the best operating system for the 9X kernel because it had the best stability:speed ratio compaired to other 9X (I think this should also include 3.1) operating systems. For the NT Kernel I believe it was Windows 2000 because of the same reason plus just like with 98SE lower memory usage but is still able to run feature packed under new hardware. As for the topic of this disussion, if I feel like being retro in which I want all the software that came with the system installed then I will use the system restore disc (PII 300MHZ Vaio PCV 240 1997 era) or 1999 Vaio PCG F480 Laptop (Multiboots to 2000 though) but if I am trying to "optimize" or I am using the computer as my main system, then I will want more options when installing XP and not have to DISABLE them later.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: Smilin
It'll do 64k under XP/2003 at least. You may kill your ability to use the built in defrag. 2003 should work, not sure on XP and I don't believe it will work under 2k. Edit: The devil is in the details.. LOTS of reasons why XP is better than 2k.

And compression, and encryption. But, obviously, that won't matter if the drive is just used for the pagefile.

Bill

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: Spencer278
Isn't the page size either 4k or something like 4 megs?

Default page size is 4k, can be different under some scenarios.

Bill

My bad.

I'm thinking of something else but I have no idea what. Sh1t, common stripe size I think. D'oh.

 

[Nothinman]

The Windows operating system is probably the only operating system to release soooo many patches that it has to COMBINE them into "Service Packs".

Come out of your cave much? NetWare has Support Packs and Solaris has patch clusters, I'm pretty sure most commercial unixes have something similar but I don't feel like fighting with HP's site right now to find out what they call them.

Isn't the page size either 4k or something like 4 megs?

On 32-bit systems it's 4K, on Intel CPUs huge pages are 4M but I'm not sure about other chips.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Smilin
2. Those that choose 2k, think they know more than they do, never bother to learn more, are absolute zealots about it and will never admit they are wrong.

Riiiiight. That's why the vast majority of larger corporate installations, the ones with professionally-managed IT depts., are still running on W2K. Hmm. What does that tell you? That they are all uneducated zealots? Or that they actually understand software testing.[/quote]

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: goku2100
*Agreed* bsobel and n0cmonkey (I swear to go they gotta be the same person)

LOL. Hardly. As far as I can tell, n0c is a Linix guy, and bsobel is an NT admin. (But I could be wrong, don't mean to pigeon-hole people too much.)

Regardless, I (well, generally - not always) agree with what they're saying, because they know what they're talking about. (Ok, I argue the technical minutiae with bsobel every once in a while... the perspective of an assembly-language programmer and that of a sysadmin aren't always the same, even when looking at the same system.) I would put mech, drag, Smilin, Sianth, and a couple of other people in this category as well.

Originally posted by: goku2100
PS. How in the fsck did those two get Elite Member status? Seems to me they have a friend working at anandtech!

Yeah, I still haven't figured out who to send the payment(s) to, myself. I guess sending beer and hookers to the secret mod clubhouse did the trick, eh?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: goku2100
Wow, no wonder why he thinks windows' management of page file and other features are at peak efficiency, because he is completely delusional about the efficiency of the Windows operating system not to mention the security holes they have to patch up every two weeks. When you say "They aren't going to release something totally broken and retarded to the business market" what do you mean by that? Are you saying that all the thousands of security holes that have to be patched up throughout Window's exsistance are merely "Enhancements"? The Windows operating system is probably the only operating system to release soooo many patches that it has to COMBINE them into "Service Packs".

Ok, my "cluelessness meter" has reached 'Critical', I have to leave this thread before it explodes and takes me with it.

Originally posted by: goku2100
And for the Wonderful Mr.Chad, fsck off.

Eh, hope you get banned, enjoy your vacation.

(Although I'll be fair about it, as I did insult you in the other thread, due to your extreme cluelessness. So if the mods want to give me a (hopefully brief) vacation, I'll admit ahead of time that I violated the guidelines around here, and therefore probably deserve it. Just cause that's the fair kind of guy I am. But think of it this way - if you want respect, you need to give respect as well. Insulting multiple experienced posters around here, for no good reason, isn't exactly the wisest thing to do.)