Legal immigration

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I have to ask the obvious, why would we want an uneducated immigrant when we could get someone already educated?

That's a good question. Why is there such a demand for uneducated workers? Could it be because businesses and consumers want them?

Obviously because there's a demand for it. Millions of uneducated workers passed through Ellis Island, and today millions of employers and households use uneducated workers to do to work for them.

They're desirable to business because illegal and therefore cheap. Make them legal citizens with the full protection of the law in wages and benefits and they're no longer desirable. Business will turn to the next wave of illegal immigrants, and the ones currently here will simply join the existing US poor on the welfare rolls.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I have to ask the obvious, why would we want an uneducated immigrant when we could get someone already educated?

The answer to that question is simple and blatantly obvious. Businesses / Corporations can much more easily exploit the uneducated immigrant into doing work for practically slave wages, thereby perpetuating the age old scenario of the rich getting richer while the poor stay poor and making the divide ever wider.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
As far as I know, the only way for them to do it is to marry somebody or come in illegally, wait for their US-born kid to hit 21 and have that kid sponsor them. Only immediate family members can sponsor for a greencard.

I don't think it's necessarily bad, though. Does the US really benefit from having poorly educated workers come across? Overall, I think no.

Something the "anti-illegal immigration" crowd say is that these people need to do it legally but in fact they cannot. I think they should not do it illegally...or at all, actually; like I said, this country doesn't need more poorly educated laborers.

Certainly marrying in to the country is acceptable and will continue to happen

If it isn't possible then logically you are against immigration to a certain extent.

This is true.

BTW, I'm against poor, low-end workers flocking in not for stealing jobs from people who should have put some effort in in school and aspire beyond $10/hour wages, but because low-income people ALWAYS drain the tax base, they are a suck down on taxes for the wealthier, so the more cheap laborers we see, the more stress on the social system. Furthermore, at least in regards to Mexicans, they send vast sums of cash southward out of the US. This country needs to massively steap up its legal immigration of above-average economic contributors. That means if you have a degree and enough work experience or work in a field in which you're basically guaranteed to make good money and contribute substantially, the lineup should be nonexistent to you.

Regarding the section I bolded, I will assume that by "the wealthier" you mostly mean the American middle class. . .or the majority of the American population. If the illegal immigration problem affected only the top 1% of the wealthiest people in America, most Americans wouldn't care. . .though ironically you can bet something would be done about it and fast. But instead, it is that wealthiest upper echelon that benefit from illegal immigration (which is probably why nothing much meaningful is being done about it) while the majority of working middle class Americans are only hurt by it.

 

[glutenberg]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
A Somali arrives in Minneapolis as a new immigrant to the United States. He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and says, "Thank you Mr. American for letting me in this country, giving me housing and food stamps!"

The passerby says, "You are mistaken, I am Mexican."

The man goes on and encounters another passerby. "Thank you for having such a beautiful country here in America !"

The person says, "I not American, I Vietnamese."

The new arrival walks further, and the next person he sees he stops, shakes his hand and says, "Thank you for the wonderful America !"

That person puts up his hand and says, "I am from Middle East , I am not American!"

He finally sees a nice lady and asks, "Are you an American?"

She says, "No, I am from Africa !"

Puzzled, he asks her, "Where are all the Americans?"

The African lady checks her watch and says..."Probably at work!

Got to love this attitude.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: glutenberg

Got to love this attitude.

Lighten up man, it's just a joke. Here's a cute one for ya.

A three-year-old boy was examining his testicles while taking a bath.

"Mom, are these my brains?"

"Not yet," she replied.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
As far as I know, the only way for them to do it is to marry somebody or come in illegally, wait for their US-born kid to hit 21 and have that kid sponsor them. Only immediate family members can sponsor for a greencard.

I don't think it's necessarily bad, though. Does the US really benefit from having poorly educated workers come across? Overall, I think no.

Something the "anti-illegal immigration" crowd say is that these people need to do it legally but in fact they cannot. I think they should not do it illegally...or at all, actually; like I said, this country doesn't need more poorly educated laborers.

Certainly marrying in to the country is acceptable and will continue to happen

If it isn't possible then logically you are against immigration to a certain extent.

This is true.

BTW, I'm against poor, low-end workers flocking in not for stealing jobs from people who should have put some effort in in school and aspire beyond $10/hour wages, but because low-income people ALWAYS drain the tax base, they are a suck down on taxes for the wealthier, so the more cheap laborers we see, the more stress on the social system. Furthermore, at least in regards to Mexicans, they send vast sums of cash southward out of the US. This country needs to massively steap up its legal immigration of above-average economic contributors. That means if you have a degree and enough work experience or work in a field in which you're basically guaranteed to make good money and contribute substantially, the lineup should be nonexistent to you.

And that's a major problem with the immigration system as well. There are not enough visas either for those who are educated that want to come. The US immigration system is joke, and people acting as if illegal immigration is the only problem with it have never tried to do things the legal way and see how hard it is and how long it takes.

We should make it extremely easy for those with college degrees or advanced degrees to come here easily as long as their background is clean and they have a job lined up or are doing research.

I have no problem with making immigration tough for those without degrees IF (and here's the caveat) Americans stop demanding the people to come here in the first place. Americans want cheap products and services -- it is a part of our consumer driven economy. There's been nothing done with immigration because people are secretly happy that they can exploit the undocumented with cheap wages and/or cheap services and products.

Making immigration tougher for the uneducated is fine to an extent. As long as that doesn't encompass those coming for persecution or political/religious reasons. The problem is that immigration is not just tough for the uneducated but rather it is flatly impossible. we *do* need laborers in this economy. Americans want burger flippers, waiters, gardeners, construction workers, and the like. Hell, we need customer service reps that give a damn, secretaries and tons of other "non-skilled jobs" that aren't just back-breaking work.

The hope is that the system works like it did 100 years ago and the children of those laborers become educated and contribute even more than their parents did. The problem is that with poverty and lack of documentation and an understanding of the value of education that is NOT happening. Part of that is because people are putting down temporary roots knowing that they might get sent back or constantly facing such pressure that money and work is more important than education. There are ways to fix those things as well.

Those attacking and blaming illegal immigration for all of society's woes are attacking the problem in the wrong ways. There's a way to have legal immigration of skilled and non-skilled workers who have clean backgrounds and wish to IMPROVE society and add value to it. The problem is that our current system horribly fails at providing those people. We still don't have a good temporary work program. We still have massive illegal immigration, and there's still a massive backlog for those with degrees. And, if you are uneducated? Our door is completely closed. There's no way to get a job here, immigrate, and then become educated. There's no way to be here legally and make sure your kids aren't worried about getting deported or working in tomato fields so the family can live above the poverty line.

Illegal immigration is wrong, but so is exploitation of workers and preventing them from moving up. Italian and Irish immigrants weren't exactly highly educated or proficient in English. We still have to give this current influx of immigrants a chance to learn English, assimilate, and have their next generation be on par with current culture. It can happen, and it most likely will, but the immigration system is something that must be fixed to allow that to happen.

As far as tax issues... that's true. The poor are a drain on society in a typical poverty, low-wage earning type of way. But, I don't think the solution is to write them off. The solution is to get them to learn the value of education and how to be productive in society. Neither of my parents went to college. That didn't prevent them from being sucessful and being an added value to society. However, they spoke English and weren't first generation immigrants. I think if many of us lived back in the 1890's to 1940's we'd be thinking and feeling them same thing but it would be about other immigrant groups. I think most immigrant groups have done pretty well for themselves. The case is still open in my opinion in regard to Hispanic immigrants. There are quite a few success stories, but there's also quite a lot of horror stories as well.

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: glutenberg

Got to love this attitude.

Lighten up man, it's just a joke. Here's a cute one for ya.

A three-year-old boy was examining his testicles while taking a bath.

"Mom, are these my brains?"

"Not yet," she replied.

going to tell wife that one thanks

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: rpanic

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I have to ask the obvious, why would we want an uneducated immigrant when we could get someone already educated?

That's a good question. Why is there such a demand for uneducated workers? Could it be because businesses and consumers want them?

Obviously because there's a demand for it. Millions of uneducated workers passed through Ellis Island, and today millions of employers and households use uneducated workers to do to work for them.

There is always a demand for cheap labor. That doesn't mean we shouldn't bring in as many educated people as we can get our hands on. They can start at the bottom and work their way up, it's called the American Dream and we are the Keepers of the Gate. I say let's raise our standards as high as possible while still letting in the number of workers we need.

IMO all this illegal immigration does is breed discontent. They're happy to come here at first but the next thing you know they find they are being treated as 3rd rate citizens and are in the streets protesting and demanding amnesty. That's pretty short-sighted on our part if you ask me.

So where does the statement: ""Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Where does that fit in?

Are we past that point as a country. It doesn't seem like. Seems like most illegals have several jobs. If there's a demand then who do we blame?

When that poem was written we needed to fill the country there were only around 50 million here in 1883. Back then they were giving land away to make people come. And the US was probably considered a third world by other countries standards of the time (the old saying beggars can?t be choosers comes to mind with who we could get). And of course there were tons of opportunities, and no immigration controls.

Its definitely a different time.

The US is still a vast country. Population is concentrated in cities still to this day. Immigrants did sucessfully assimilate back then and they can today. There are 2.5 billion people in just India and China alone. We do have to have an increase in population to expand. Look at the problems Western Europe has faced in regard to declining birth rates. There's nothing wrong with immigration controls that *work*. This country still has plenty of land and any growing economy still needs people to expand. China and India are starting to reign in their best and brightest flocking away. With tightened immigration controls after 9/11 (not just for immigrants but for business as well) our influx of creative and skilled workers is not keeping up with what we need. Many bright immigrants are going to different countries now. We *need* highly skilled workers, but we also need those that provide services and do manual labor. There should be a legal process for them, and in doing so you can prevent the wage exploitation and lack of access to education and other programs that hinders the current wave of immigration.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont know the answer off the top of my head but I do want to clear the smear before it gets out of hand. There arent many anti-immigration people on this board. You will however find people against the free flow of illegal immigration. By framing the argument everybody who is against illegal immigration is anti-immigration, it marginalizes the entire discussion and sends it into a tailspin.

But maybe that is what you wanted?

Despite what I might have led people to believe in other threads, I DON'T believe that most anti-illegal immigration people are anti-immigration or racists or whatever. But I don't believe you have reasonable and logical objections either. I think you've been suckered by a media that makes everything into the worst possible threat to you personally...EVER...in the history of the universe. Illegal immigration is just another in the long line of "tonight on FearPlex 9, something everyone has in their kitchen that can KILL YOU" style reporting that passes itself off as news.

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: rpanic

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I have to ask the obvious, why would we want an uneducated immigrant when we could get someone already educated?

That's a good question. Why is there such a demand for uneducated workers? Could it be because businesses and consumers want them?

Obviously because there's a demand for it. Millions of uneducated workers passed through Ellis Island, and today millions of employers and households use uneducated workers to do to work for them.

There is always a demand for cheap labor. That doesn't mean we shouldn't bring in as many educated people as we can get our hands on. They can start at the bottom and work their way up, it's called the American Dream and we are the Keepers of the Gate. I say let's raise our standards as high as possible while still letting in the number of workers we need.

IMO all this illegal immigration does is breed discontent. They're happy to come here at first but the next thing you know they find they are being treated as 3rd rate citizens and are in the streets protesting and demanding amnesty. That's pretty short-sighted on our part if you ask me.

So where does the statement: ""Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Where does that fit in?

Are we past that point as a country. It doesn't seem like. Seems like most illegals have several jobs. If there's a demand then who do we blame?

When that poem was written we needed to fill the country there were only around 50 million here in 1883. Back then they were giving land away to make people come. And the US was probably considered a third world by other countries standards of the time (the old saying beggars can?t be choosers comes to mind with who we could get). And of course there were tons of opportunities, and no immigration controls.

Its definitely a different time.

The US is still a vast country. Population is concentrated in cities still to this day. Immigrants did sucessfully assimilate back then and they can today. There are 2.5 billion people in just India and China alone. We do have to have an increase in population to expand. Look at the problems Western Europe has faced in regard to declining birth rates. There's nothing wrong with immigration controls that *work*. This country still has plenty of land and any growing economy still needs people to expand. China and India are starting to reign in their best and brightest flocking away. With tightened immigration controls after 9/11 (not just for immigrants but for business as well) our influx of creative and skilled workers is not keeping up with what we need. Many bright immigrants are going to different countries now. We *need* highly skilled workers, but we also need those that provide services and do manual labor. There should be a legal process for them, and in doing so you can prevent the wage exploitation and lack of access to education and other programs that hinders the current wave of immigration.

About 1/3 of the Engineers I work with are from somewhere else I was asking them about this. On average they had to wait 4 to 7 years to get into the US legally. One is from India one the Fiji Islands, and we even got one that?s went from being Pilipino to Canadian to now a American. They all said it was a pain but are even more pissed off about Illegals than I. And they all speak perfect English, the guy from India I can?t even tell he is not from here.

China and India are diffinitly up and coming powers, but they also have some of the highest concentrations of poverty which dwarfs their middle and upper classes and that is going to cause a lot of problems in there future.

Perhaps we should change all of our aid for other countries into setting up planned parenthoods and birth control education (sounds bad but what else is there to do). We should not have to deal with these out of control populations which are a big part of what causes illegal immigration. The third world is creating poverty quicker than any amount of first world countries can absorb.

And the Catholic Church doesn?t help either by wanting people to reproduce like mad. I read a new article about the Philippines not long ago. The church was fighting the government on educating people about birth control and how babies are made (sounds funny but some people didn?t know out in the boonies) and I am sure they do the same thing in Latin countries.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: rpanic

And the Catholic Church doesn?t help either by wanting people to reproduce like mad. I read a new article about the Philippines not long ago. The church was fighting the government on educating people about birth control and how babies are made (sounds funny but some people didn?t know out in the boonies) and I am sure they do the same thing in Latin countries.

I think the people "out in the boonies" know how babies are made, they just aren't well versued in how to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[rpanic]

To true, I think they thought that they were literally gifts from god and had nothing to do with sex, I call it bull to but you never now.

 

[StageLeft]

About 1/3 of the Engineers I work with are from somewhere else I was asking them about this. On average they had to wait 4 to 7 years to get into the US legally. One is from India one the Fiji Islands, and we even got one that?s went from being Pilipino to Canadian to now a American. They all said it was a pain but are even more pissed off about Illegals than I. And they all speak perfect English, the guy from India I can?t even tell he is not from here.

Haha, sounds like me. I was able to "short track" a greencard having come from Canada and also being married to a nurse (who's profession is in demand), so for us the process was "fast", which meant only about 2.5 years and $5,000 US (which is well below average for what we got--we got a steal on the attorney). If I'd not been married to her it would have taken me at least one more year, and mind you this is with a degree and employment (IT), just not employment in one of the few in-demand fields. I was able to immediately come to the US with a TN visa (accessible to Mexicans and Canadians only), but it does not contribute in any way shape or form towards a greencard and since it has to be renewed each year and is pinned to only a single employer and upon its renewal it can be rejected (which means stop working _immediately_ and get your lease terminated, etc. so that you can go back home), it's really very temporary. There were periods of time during the adjudication of our incredibly slow applications that we could not leave the country although we covered that for the most part with yet more fees and more multi-month-processing forms that would let us "parole" out of the country on vacation without the immigration system automatically thinking that we'd abandoned our apps. It is incredibly draining and if I had known what it involved before I came, I'd probably be living in Ontario right now instead of down here.

I don't know if I hate illegal immigration out of a kind of jealousy. I don't think so because the illegals are going through the problems I went through when I first got here--no social security number, no credit, etc. I think I hate it because I'm more in tune with it than most. I know that this country is incredibly resistant to allowing in educated workers...very, very slow and lethargic and people like me who make above median wage are net contributors, whereas the system here has little qualm about accepting in 1-2M laborers a year and turning the other cheek.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont know the answer off the top of my head but I do want to clear the smear before it gets out of hand. There arent many anti-immigration people on this board. You will however find people against the free flow of illegal immigration. By framing the argument everybody who is against illegal immigration is anti-immigration, it marginalizes the entire discussion and sends it into a tailspin.

But maybe that is what you wanted?

Despite what I might have led people to believe in other threads, I DON'T believe that most anti-illegal immigration people are anti-immigration or racists or whatever. But I don't believe you have reasonable and logical objections either. I think you've been suckered by a media that makes everything into the worst possible threat to you personally...EVER...in the history of the universe. Illegal immigration is just another in the long line of "tonight on FearPlex 9, something everyone has in their kitchen that can KILL YOU" style reporting that passes itself off as news.

I just talked to my brother he was telling me that a mutual friend of ours got fired today. He was an employeed there as a tool and die maker for over 30 years and for the last 15 years was in charge of the tool and die room, but as an hourly employee. Well, they talked him into going salary and being in charge of maintenance and the tool and die room like a week ago.

Now that the Mexicans are moving in they happen to have in their employ a Mexican as the janitor for the last month. I guess he's kind of a screw-up (according to my brother who works there) and our mutual friend had to clean a bunch of toliets this morning because the janitor was late to work and there was nobody else to do it. He had his hands full with all the new responisibilites and I guess when the janitor got in he chewed him out and let loose a racial slur of some kind (nobody knows what he said yet).

Well, the janitor reported it to the new HR person (they just got one, they don't seem to last very long at this place though) so she brought him in and questioned him. He admitted it had slipped out because he was so mad and apologized, including a written apology. They were going to give him 3 days off and he couldn't do it again!!

Well, word came down from corporate headquarters and they said to fire him, so after 30 years working in the same place he's out looking for a job. In a small town like this there are only a couple of places where he can even get a tool and die room job so unless he's willing to be a machinist he's going to have to move. Did I mention he and his wife were both born and raised here, their parents live here (and are getting pretty old too).

Yeah, he screwed up, but he apologized and he meant it. Dis he deserve this? I don't think so. He was always deadset against unions, I have to wonder if he will rethink that now?

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

About 1/3 of the Engineers I work with are from somewhere else I was asking them about this. On average they had to wait 4 to 7 years to get into the US legally. One is from India one the Fiji Islands, and we even got one that?s went from being Pilipino to Canadian to now a American. They all said it was a pain but are even more pissed off about Illegals than I. And they all speak perfect English, the guy from India I can?t even tell he is not from here.

Haha, sounds like me. I was able to "short track" a greencard having come from Canada and also being married to a nurse (who's profession is in demand), so for us the process was "fast", which meant only about 2.5 years and $5,000 US (which is well below average for what we got--we got a steal on the attorney). If I'd not been married to her it would have taken me at least one more year, and mind you this is with a degree and employment (IT), just not employment in one of the few in-demand fields. I was able to immediately come to the US with a TN visa (accessible to Mexicans and Canadians only), but it does not contribute in any way shape or form towards a greencard and since it has to be renewed each year and is pinned to only a single employer and upon its renewal it can be rejected (which means stop working _immediately_ and get your lease terminated, etc. so that you can go back home), it's really very temporary. There were periods of time during the adjudication of our incredibly slow applications that we could not leave the country although we covered that for the most part with yet more fees and more multi-month-processing forms that would let us "parole" out of the country on vacation without the immigration system automatically thinking that we'd abandoned our apps. It is incredibly draining and if I had known what it involved before I came, I'd probably be living in Ontario right now instead of down here.

I don't know if I hate illegal immigration out of a kind of jealousy. I don't think so because the illegals are going through the problems I went through when I first got here--no social security number, no credit, etc. I think I hate it because I'm more in tune with it than most. I know that this country is incredibly resistant to allowing in educated workers...very, very slow and lethargic and people like me who make above median wage are net contributors, whereas the system here has little qualm about accepting in 1-2M laborers a year and turning the other cheek.

You sound Just like the guy at my work from Canada his wife is a nurse also. I guess if you are a nurse its pretty much a ticket to anywhere.

 

[Dissipate]

What happens when the immigrants (legal or illegal) bring the political corruption here that they have in their own countries?

 

[elmro]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I have to ask the obvious, why would we want an uneducated immigrant when we could get someone already educated?

That's a good question. Why is there such a demand for uneducated workers? Could it be because businesses and consumers want them?

Obviously because there's a demand for it. Millions of uneducated workers passed through Ellis Island, and today millions of employers and households use uneducated workers to do to work for them.

I heard a statistic that 50% of young black men and women in New York City, between the ages of 18 and 24, don't have a job. I'd bet this stat is partially inflated because many of them are full time college students. I'd also bet that plenty of these young men and women aren't enrolled in college. Why aren't these people, with their basic public school education, doing the jobs that illegal immigrants come to New York City to do? I have no concrete evidence, but again I would say it is because they refuse to be exploited by law-breaking employers. They may not be willing to work for less than minimum wage. In this scenario, are our own citizens being treated fairly? I would say no.

I am sympathetic to the argument that the market wouldn't tolerate some jobs at higher prices. But I really don't think this applies to every job - there are plenty of shady employers looking to exploit an illegal immigrant in order to squeeze out every last dollar of profit.

While we have minimum wage laws that are being exploited, illegal immigration, in my opinion, is a problem that needs to be dealt with in a restrictive manner.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont know the answer off the top of my head but I do want to clear the smear before it gets out of hand. There arent many anti-immigration people on this board. You will however find people against the free flow of illegal immigration. By framing the argument everybody who is against illegal immigration is anti-immigration, it marginalizes the entire discussion and sends it into a tailspin.

But maybe that is what you wanted?

I don't think you understand. Shouldn't we make sure a legal path is possible before making the blanket argument of "they should come here legally." What if coming here legally is not possible?

Before you say I'm smearing you it would behoove you to research the question. Is legal immigration a possibility for an uneducated Mexican worker? If not, then how can someone say "I'm fine with immigration as long as it is legal." If it isn't possible then logically you are against immigration to a certain extent.

I guess it depends on how you want to look at the situation. Do people from other countries have a right to legal immigration within anothers country? Does the host country have a right to filter who they let pass into their country in terms of legal citizenship?

It is possible, and in this case(based on your reply) looks like it has requirements beyond what most illegals possess. I am not against modifying said requirements to allow low waged uneducated workers into our country.

But your argument still doesnt show anybody is against immigration. You are presenting a situation in which it is not possible for certain people to become legal citizens. I am sure criminals are also not welcome. If you are against criminals from other countries becoming a legal US citizen, does that make you anti-immigration? You paint it too black and white imo.

No matter what spin anybody puts on this issue ther is noway it can be totally black and white!!

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Genx87
I dont know the answer off the top of my head but I do want to clear the smear before it gets out of hand. There arent many anti-immigration people on this board. You will however find people against the free flow of illegal immigration. By framing the argument everybody who is against illegal immigration is anti-immigration, it marginalizes the entire discussion and sends it into a tailspin.

But maybe that is what you wanted?

Despite what I might have led people to believe in other threads, I DON'T believe that most anti-illegal immigration people are anti-immigration or racists or whatever. But I don't believe you have reasonable and logical objections either. I think you've been suckered by a media that makes everything into the worst possible threat to you personally...EVER...in the history of the universe. Illegal immigration is just another in the long line of "tonight on FearPlex 9, something everyone has in their kitchen that can KILL YOU" style reporting that passes itself off as news.

You dont think citizens of a country have a right to not have a free flow of people who are non-citizens across their border?

I think you mistake my views on this situation big time, no surprise however.

 

[colonel]

the true is they CAN NOT, they can't get a tourist visa so they will never try a green card. So those people talking about legal inmigration dont know the law.