Legal: Can someone explain this jurisdiction part to me?

[SarcasticDwarf]

I had an e-bay deal go bad and I am going to need to sue the guy to do anything. I currently live in Montana but lived in Wisconsin at the time and the buyer (who represented a business) lives in NYC. Based on Boschetto v. Hansen it appears that I need to file in the sellers home state, so I think that means Wisconsin (though I now live in Montana).

Here is what the WI small claims court says:

Other civil actions. In other civil actions where the amount claimed is
$5,000 or less, the action should be filed:
For Money judgments:
? For Non-consumer claims:
1. In the county where a defendant resides;
2. In the county where the claim arose.
? For Consumer claims:
1. Where the customer resides or is personally served;
2. Where the customer sought or acquired the money or credit
which is the subject of the claim or signed the document
showing his or her obligation.

So where the heck do I file? I think the e-bay transaction is more of a contract dispute (he got his money back by filing what was likely a false chargeback) which would make in non-consumer? I am rather confused at this point.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

...

 

[ViviTheMage]

I do not know many people that sue over a false chargeback...our expertise here may be limited...

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

I would think this is a non-comumer claim as it is a private transaction between individuals and not a retail company.

 

[RadiclDreamer]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
I had an e-bay deal go bad and I am going to need to sue the guy to do anything. I currently live in Montana but lived in Wisconsin at the time and the buyer (who represented a business) lives in NYC. Based on Boschetto v. Hansen it appears that I need to file in the sellers home state, so I think that means Wisconsin (though I now live in Montana).

Here is what the WI small claims court says:

Other civil actions. In other civil actions where the amount claimed is
$5,000 or less, the action should be filed:
For Money judgments:
? For Non-consumer claims:
1. In the county where a defendant resides;
2. In the county where the claim arose.
? For Consumer claims:
1. Where the customer resides or is personally served;
2. Where the customer sought or acquired the money or credit
which is the subject of the claim or signed the document
showing his or her obligation.

So where the heck do I file? I think the e-bay transaction is more of a contract dispute (he got his money back by filing what was likely a false chargeback) which would make in non-consumer? I am rather confused at this point.

How much are you out?

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: RadiclDreamer

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
I had an e-bay deal go bad and I am going to need to sue the guy to do anything. I currently live in Montana but lived in Wisconsin at the time and the buyer (who represented a business) lives in NYC. Based on Boschetto v. Hansen it appears that I need to file in the sellers home state, so I think that means Wisconsin (though I now live in Montana).

Here is what the WI small claims court says:

Other civil actions. In other civil actions where the amount claimed is
$5,000 or less, the action should be filed:
For Money judgments:
? For Non-consumer claims:
1. In the county where a defendant resides;
2. In the county where the claim arose.
? For Consumer claims:
1. Where the customer resides or is personally served;
2. Where the customer sought or acquired the money or credit
which is the subject of the claim or signed the document
showing his or her obligation.

So where the heck do I file? I think the e-bay transaction is more of a contract dispute (he got his money back by filing what was likely a false chargeback) which would make in non-consumer? I am rather confused at this point.

How much are you out?

~$528

The extra fun is that there is absolutely nothing clear on who holds jurisdiction in these cases. Some things imply the seller but I can't figure out if I can file in Montana where I moved afterwards or I would have to file in the state I was in at the time.

 

[pulsedrive]

I hate to tell you, but once all is said and done you will end up spending more on court costs than you lost in the first place.

 

[darkxshade]

Skip all the legal mumbo jumbo and just take him to court no Judge Judy

 

[aphex]

Ahhh, brings back memories of 1st year Civ Pro....

 

[gar598]

$528 will take you to Small Claims Court (ie. District Court - will have Subject Matter Jurisdiction over the case. A party to a civil action is subject to the personal jurisdiction of a state court if 1.) is a citizen of the state. 2.) can be found and served with a summons and complaint in the state. 3.) consents 5.) has established sufficient contacts. You would also need Proper venue - the focus is on convenience - generally where one party resides or in the county in which the cause of action arose.

The Civil Procedure case that set the standard was pennoyer v. neff.

That said, you could file in either your home state (where you reside) or where the action arose. I'm not giving legal advice - your best bet is to check with your local legal aid office or contact the clerk's office.

 

[torpid]

Maybe this helps a bit.

 

[Tim]

You give me that juris-my-dick-tion crap, you can cram it up your ass.

 

[jonks]

THe case you cited probably stated you need to file in the seller's home state because in that case the seller was the defendant, right? It doesn't have to do with seller or buyer so much as it does who is the person getting sued. IOW, you'd probably have to sue in NY.

How bout some more facts? What did you sell? What went wrong? Did you ship the product?

 

[torpid]

It's Hansing, not hansen. It was a slightly different case because in that case, the eBay auction winner took delivery in the state of the seller then tried to sue in their own state. It may be a minor distinction, or not.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: gar598
$528 will take you to Small Claims Court (ie. District Court - will have Subject Matter Jurisdiction over the case. A party to a civil action is subject to the personal jurisdiction of a state court if 1.) is a citizen of the state. 2.) can be found and served with a summons and complaint in the state. 3.) consents 5.) has established sufficient contacts. You would also need Proper venue - the focus is on convenience - generally where one party resides or in the county in which the cause of action arose.

The Civil Procedure case that set the standard was pennoyer v. neff.

That said, you could file in either your home state (where you reside) or where the action arose. I'm not giving legal advice - your best bet is to check with your local legal aid office or contact the clerk's office.

Excellent. Thanks for the references.

I tried a lot of searching and I just could not find this kind of stuff. It would be great if I could file here in Montana AND the judge accepted jurisdiction. I spoke with the state law library and they agreed that the largest problem is going to be to get the court to accept jurisdiction. We have justice, city, municipal, and district courts and it might actually be technically legal to file in any one of them. As the library said though, the biggest problem is that I am in Montana, and the odds of any given judge at *any* level knowing how to handle jurisdiction is low, much less them knowing exactly where it needs to be filed.

I need to take some time to go down to the clerks office sometime, ugg.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: pulsedrive
I hate to tell you, but once all is said and done you will end up spending more on court costs than you lost in the first place.

IF I can file and get it recognized here in Montana I won't spend that much (<$250). If I have to do it out of state then yeah. Regardless, I feel that I am right and I want him to have to pay, even if I ultimately "lose" money. Oh, I may also be able to recoup court costs (though I have not checked for this state).

 

[rudeguy]

The People's Court seems to be the only clear option.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: pulsedrive
I hate to tell you, but once all is said and done you will end up spending more on court costs than you lost in the first place.

IF I can file and get it recognized here in Montana I won't spend that much (<$250). If I have to do it out of state then yeah. Regardless, I feel that I am right and I want him to have to pay, even if I ultimately "lose" money. Oh, I may also be able to recoup court costs (though I have not checked for this state).

I asked for more facts for a reason. Contract disputes don't entitle you to a ton of money if you win, and require you to mitigate your damages. Did you resell the item to someone else? If so, you aren't going to get a court order so you get paid twice. Jurisdiction (which I don't think you'll get outside of NY) aside.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: pulsedrive
I hate to tell you, but once all is said and done you will end up spending more on court costs than you lost in the first place.

IF I can file and get it recognized here in Montana I won't spend that much (<$250). If I have to do it out of state then yeah. Regardless, I feel that I am right and I want him to have to pay, even if I ultimately "lose" money. Oh, I may also be able to recoup court costs (though I have not checked for this state).

I asked for more facts for a reason. Contract disputes don't entitle you to a ton of money if you win, and require you to mitigate your damages. Did you resell the item to someone else? If so, you aren't going to get a court order so you get paid twice. Jurisdiction (which I don't think you'll get outside of NY) aside.

Let me summarize as quickly as possible. I was the seller living in Wisconsin and sold the laptop to a guy (who owns two B&M stores in NYC). He got it, said it was working great. The warranty period offered by me, the seller, expires. At some point he then modifies (replacing at least the hard drive to transfer data) the laptop and resells it to a customer. While the customer has it the screen breaks. The store owner then files a CC chargeback against me for selling goods not as described. He wins the dispute, though Paypal can provide me with no information or records of the dispute, or even if they (Paypal) disputed the dispute. So in short, the buyer got BOTH the laptop (now worthless with a broken screen and modified somehow) and the money. Shortly after this happens I move to Montana.

So *I* was the seller. What I want is the money he originally paid me, plus the $10 chargeback fee from Paypal, plus any court costs.

Does that answer your questions?

 

[Juked07]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: pulsedrive
I hate to tell you, but once all is said and done you will end up spending more on court costs than you lost in the first place.

IF I can file and get it recognized here in Montana I won't spend that much (<$250). If I have to do it out of state then yeah. Regardless, I feel that I am right and I want him to have to pay, even if I ultimately "lose" money. Oh, I may also be able to recoup court costs (though I have not checked for this state).

For jurisdiction you need 3 things: subject matter, case jurisdiction, and person jurisdiction.

Pretty much any state has laws about contracts, so subject matter is covered. Case jurisdiction should be no problem, because the fact that you reside in Montana gives it relevance. The problem is person jurisdiction. The court needs to have authority over both the plaintiff (you) and the defendant. Obviously there's no problem with authority over the plaintiff, because you'll give consent, but the court will need to serve summons to the defendant, and it probably doesn't have the power to do that in NY.

There might be some sort of Long Arm Statute that states that by doing business in Montana, the buyer agrees that the state can act as his agent, and then you'll be able to mail him summons through the agent, but you'll have to look into that.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: Juked07

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: pulsedrive
I hate to tell you, but once all is said and done you will end up spending more on court costs than you lost in the first place.

IF I can file and get it recognized here in Montana I won't spend that much (<$250). If I have to do it out of state then yeah. Regardless, I feel that I am right and I want him to have to pay, even if I ultimately "lose" money. Oh, I may also be able to recoup court costs (though I have not checked for this state).

For jurisdiction you need 3 things: subject matter, case jurisdiction, and person jurisdiction.

Pretty much any state has laws about contracts, so subject matter is covered. Case jurisdiction should be no problem, because the fact that you reside in Montana gives it relevance. The problem is person jurisdiction. The court needs to have authority over both the plaintiff (you) and the defendant. Obviously there's no problem with authority over the plaintiff, because you'll give consent, but the court will need to serve summons to the defendant, and it probably doesn't have the power to do that in NY.

There might be some sort of Long Arm Statute that states that by doing business in Montana, the buyer agrees that the state can act as his agent, and then you'll be able to mail him summons through the agent, but you'll have to look into that.

So by that it is impossible to get personal jurisdiction in any state due to the need to have both parties in the same state? Or is the plaintiff always forced to go to the other state?

Edit: It appears Wisconsin DOES have a long arm statute. Checking into Montana now.
Edit2: More looking into it shows that I should very easily be able to file in Wisconsin. This document gives a really good overview and the Montana code supports the conclusion.