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Left Behind Economics

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bobdelt

Senior member
May 26, 2006
918
0
0
"That ain't from gas prices, bub. That's the effects of the greed of a very few very rich Americans."

Can you really blame them? What do you want them to do? Give away all their money? Wait, Gate and Buffet are already doing that.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Krugman is still pissed his side lost the cold war.

A typically ignorant statement. At least your consistent.

lmao

now that is funny!

When you can't argue the facts resort to playing grammar policeman.

I found it funny. Calling somebody ignorant while not knowing the difference between your and you're.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Krugman is Yale/MIT. He taught at Yale, MIT, and Stanford. At MIT he became the Ford International Professor of Economics. He is currently professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University.

And? Techs apparently has a MBA in economics and cant figure out how compounding interest works.



 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
2,477
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: dahunan
$400,000,000,000 stolen in just the 5 1/2 years he has been in Office

not to mention the $15,000,000,000 taken away from financially challenged citizens who want to get A LOAN to go to school.. while in the same month he GAVE the Oil Industry a $15,000,000,000 tax break

bush's priorities are quite clear. I just can't understand how people can still be tricked into denying the obvious.

It's all about supporting your boy. No one want's to admit that the last person they voted for is a failure, and that they voted for him because his last name is 'Bush'.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Krugman is still pissed his side lost the cold war.

A typically ignorant statement. At least your consistent.

lmao

now that is funny!

When you can't argue the facts resort to playing grammar policeman.

Some people have weak minds and weak constitutions. Better to stick with the status quo than admit your position is both idiotic and immoral.

Seems to be a LOT of that going around... ;)

Originally posted by: alchemize
Likely a reflection that the "top 1%" are the majority shareholders in large corporations, and therefore increased profits = increased riches. Capital gains are only realized upon transacting shares. That's not the only method that the "top 1%" pay themselves (increased dividend payments, re-financing debt and rolling back $$, etc.)

I'd be interested if he'd do this analysis say during the downswing of 2000, very likely you'd see the reverse (the top 1% going down in net worth, but the bottom 99% with the standard small % gain). Of course, that would require him to be an economist and not a partisan hack.

Krugman is Yale/MIT. He taught at Yale, MIT, and Stanford. At MIT he became the Ford International Professor of Economics. He is currently professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University.

Partisan hack, huh?

:roll:

Where did YOU get YOUR degree in economics?

And how the hell can you still defend the embarassment in the White House whom you apparently love so dearly and still DARE to call ANYONE a partisan hack?

Columnist Biography: Paul Krugman

Paul Krugman joined The New York Times in 1999 as a columnist on the Op-Ed Page and continues as professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University.

Mr. Krugman received his B.A. from Yale University in 1974 and his Ph.D. from MIT in 1977. He has taught at Yale, MIT and Stanford. At MIT he became the Ford International Professor of Economics.

Mr. Krugman is the author or editor of 20 books and more than 200 papers in professional journals and edited volumes. His professional reputation rests largely on work in international trade and finance; he is one of the founders of the "new trade theory," a major rethinking of the theory of international trade. In recognition of that work, in 1991 the American Economic Association awarded him its John Bates Clark medal, a prize given every two years to "that economist under forty who is adjudged to have made a significant contribution to economic knowledge." Mr. Krugman's current academic research is focused on economic and currency crises.

At the same time, Mr. Krugman has written extensively for a broader public audience. Some of his recent articles on economic issues, originally published in Foreign Affairs, Harvard Business Review, Scientific American and other journals, are reprinted in Pop Internationalism and The Accidental Theorist.

I don't have a degree in Economics. I have a degree in Finance/International Business and a Masters in Business Administration, which I think gives me some room to develop an intelligent opinion on economic theory. Your turn... (oh that's right you are some retired unskilled, uneducated leech)

But it's interesting that you ignore my thesis and latch onto the partisan hack comment. It's well established that Krugman is as left as they get, just like you. So it's no wonder that you're all in a tizzy that I point out his obvious bias. I'm sure both of you think you're both incredibly open-minded, as you wipe your drool off with your well-stained sleeve.

120 examples of partisan hackery by the esteemed Krugman
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: martinez
Originally posted by: alchemize
Likely a reflection that the "top 1%" are the majority shareholders in large corporations, and therefore increased profits = increased riches. Capital gains are only realized upon transacting shares. That's not the only method that the "top 1%" pay themselves (increased dividend payments, re-financing debt and rolling back $$, etc.)

I'd be interested if he'd do this analysis say during the downswing of 2000, very likely you'd see the reverse (the top 1% going down in net worth, but the bottom 99% with the standard small % gain). Of course, that would require him to be an economist and not a partisan hack.

Yeah, cause when the stocks take a dive, your average Joe always gets a raise....ROFL.

Instead of rolling on the floor drooling, why don't you attempt to prove me wrong? (because you can't)
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
So you think that Bush's Opponent would have done a better job?

It is possible that we would be having higher taxes, and even higher interest rates, and higher inflation, wondering when the next terrorist attack was coming. You really think that the Heinz spoiled brat millionaire even cares about you?

When I look back I just picked the best of the two at the time.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Krugman is still pissed his side lost the cold war.

A typically ignorant statement. At least your consistent.

lmao

now that is funny!

When you can't argue the facts resort to playing grammar policeman.

Some people have weak minds and weak constitutions. Better to stick with the status quo than admit your position is both idiotic and immoral.

Seems to be a LOT of that going around... ;)

Originally posted by: alchemize
Likely a reflection that the "top 1%" are the majority shareholders in large corporations, and therefore increased profits = increased riches. Capital gains are only realized upon transacting shares. That's not the only method that the "top 1%" pay themselves (increased dividend payments, re-financing debt and rolling back $$, etc.)

I'd be interested if he'd do this analysis say during the downswing of 2000, very likely you'd see the reverse (the top 1% going down in net worth, but the bottom 99% with the standard small % gain). Of course, that would require him to be an economist and not a partisan hack.

Krugman is Yale/MIT. He taught at Yale, MIT, and Stanford. At MIT he became the Ford International Professor of Economics. He is currently professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University.

Partisan hack, huh?

:roll:

Where did YOU get YOUR degree in economics?

And how the hell can you still defend the embarassment in the White House whom you apparently love so dearly and still DARE to call ANYONE a partisan hack?

Columnist Biography: Paul Krugman

Paul Krugman joined The New York Times in 1999 as a columnist on the Op-Ed Page and continues as professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University.

Mr. Krugman received his B.A. from Yale University in 1974 and his Ph.D. from MIT in 1977. He has taught at Yale, MIT and Stanford. At MIT he became the Ford International Professor of Economics.

Mr. Krugman is the author or editor of 20 books and more than 200 papers in professional journals and edited volumes. His professional reputation rests largely on work in international trade and finance; he is one of the founders of the "new trade theory," a major rethinking of the theory of international trade. In recognition of that work, in 1991 the American Economic Association awarded him its John Bates Clark medal, a prize given every two years to "that economist under forty who is adjudged to have made a significant contribution to economic knowledge." Mr. Krugman's current academic research is focused on economic and currency crises.

At the same time, Mr. Krugman has written extensively for a broader public audience. Some of his recent articles on economic issues, originally published in Foreign Affairs, Harvard Business Review, Scientific American and other journals, are reprinted in Pop Internationalism and The Accidental Theorist.

I don't have a degree in Economics. I have a degree in Finance/International Business and a Masters in Business Administration, which I think gives me some room to develop an intelligent opinion on economic theory. Your turn... (oh that's right you are some retired unskilled, uneducated leech)

But it's interesting that you ignore my thesis and latch onto the partisan hack comment. It's well established that Krugman is as left as they get, just like you. So it's no wonder that you're all in a tizzy that I point out his obvious bias. I'm sure both of you think you're both incredibly open-minded, as you wipe your drool off with your well-stained sleeve.

120 examples of partisan hackery by the esteemed Krugman

And with all your education you can't seem to recognize what's as plain as the nose on your face. This government's sole economic purpose is a redistribution of wealth upward.

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Just a few items from alchemize's alleged proof that Krugman is a leftist.

Item 1: Krugman suggests that Bush administration appointments will lead to an explosion in spending particular business concerns such as DOD contracting. The article was written in 2002 . . . seems like Krugmen made a good call.

Item 2: Krugman in 2002 suggests the Bush administration is not dealing with the real issues in Medicare. The tool writing the blog defends Bush by saying Medicare's problems predate Bush presents for the wealthy. Hmm, I wonder what Bush did for Medicare finances in 2003? Again looks like Krugman made a good call.

Item 3: This one deserves full excerpt
He seems draw comfort from the fact that in a parliamentary system, such as that in France, the fringe e.g., Jean-Marie Le Pen, never actually ?wins.? But in the U.S., to his horror, the right fringe, by focusing their anger, can take over an entire political party (the GOP) and actually come to power.

What delusional poppycock.
Hmm, what's the legislative agenda been as of late . . . gays and flag-burning are ruining America . . . yep mainstream alright.

Item 4: Excerpt from the tool . . .
Finally Krugman points out that many EPA staffers (Carol Browner era holdovers) are leaving in frustration. He sees this as evidence of demoralization in the EPA.
We say,
a) what would you expect?
and,
b) good riddance.
Hmm, curiously Bush's first appointee to the EPA left and wrote a book about her frustration at EPA and the Bush administration.

For instance, take the moment when President Bush reversed his campaign promise to regulate carbon-dioxide emissions and then asked her to take the heat. Or the moment when the president pulled out of Kyoto without agreeing to pursue a compromise, making her a laughingstock among environmental ministers worldwide. Or the moment when the White House refused to give her the authority to investigate the safety of the thousands of chemical facilities in America vulnerable to terrorist attack.

Or the pressures she felt from above to weaken the new-source review clause of the Clean Air Act: "People became focused on reforming NSR, with some intent on getting rid of it altogether. The vice president seemed particularly eager about the issue, and he called me on several occasions, even tracking me down when I was on vacation in Colorado, to press his view [on] NSR reform."

Most revealing of all, perhaps, is her description of her appointment to serve on the Dick Cheney's energy task force, "an eye-opening encounter with just how obsessed so many of those in the energy industry, and in the Republican Party, have become with doing away with environmental regulation."
Again, it looks like Krugman isn't a way left of center radical. He just presents an inconvenient truth. Occasionally, even the delusioned (Bushistas) have a moment of clarity during which they feel the sting of reality.

But it's interesting that you ignore my thesis and latch onto the partisan hack comment. It's well established that Krugman is as left as they get, just like you. So it's no wonder that you're all in a tizzy that I point out his obvious bias. I'm sure both of you think you're both incredibly open-minded, as you wipe your drool off with your well-stained sleeve.
Curious way to frame a discussion considering you followed it with a link to partisan hack commentary. Granted, it's not your list I only read 1-5 but given the tone it's hard to believe Weidner improves with practice.

One more gem from the "proof of bias" in Krugman . . .
His "even odds" economic growth rate of 3.5% (which he implies is barely adequate to stabilize employment) is in fact a fabulous growth rate. If the labor supply grows at 1% per annum then the implied growth rate in labor productivity must be 2.5% per annum. This is "golden age" stuff. The U.S. standard of living could double in something like 25 years. Why is he revealing this conversion (or is it a confession?) in such a ho-hum fashion?

Probably because it?s bad news for Krugman and the other class?warfare warriors in the Democratic Party. It?s tough to make political hay over "tax cuts for the rich" when most people are feeling richer every year. Likewise, scaring seniors over Social Security "cuts" is a hard sell when the CBO is projecting budget surpluses for as far as the eye can see. In fact, spinning this kind of growth into a Democratic issue of any sort will require some real ingenuity. But we suspect Krugman is up to the task.
So I read this I think, 'Krugman is either a genius prognosticator or the luckiest economist in the world!'

Since 2001 . . poverty up, household debt up, real wages not keeping pace with inflation . . . most Americans have seen a stagnation or a decrease in standard of living over the past 5 years so the economy would have to go WILD to see anything close to doubling. Think happy thoughts . . . the Bush motto. Regardless, the Americans that are feeling richer every year is a REALLY small group.

Somebody say surplus?
 

martinez

Senior member
May 10, 2005
272
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: martinez
Originally posted by: alchemize
Likely a reflection that the "top 1%" are the majority shareholders in large corporations, and therefore increased profits = increased riches. Capital gains are only realized upon transacting shares. That's not the only method that the "top 1%" pay themselves (increased dividend payments, re-financing debt and rolling back $$, etc.)

I'd be interested if he'd do this analysis say during the downswing of 2000, very likely you'd see the reverse (the top 1% going down in net worth, but the bottom 99% with the standard small % gain). Of course, that would require him to be an economist and not a partisan hack.

Yeah, cause when the stocks take a dive, your average Joe always gets a raise....ROFL.

Instead of rolling on the floor drooling, why don't you attempt to prove me wrong? (because you can't)

I think the onus is on you to prove your assertion. Alot of middle class took a bath on dotcom stocks too. I guarantee if you take into account the level of personal debt then the bottom 99% wouldn't be looking at a small % gain any time recently. If you can show me otherwise, go ahead.(bet you can't)
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
Originally posted by: alchemize
Likely a reflection that the "top 1%" are the majority shareholders in large corporations, and therefore increased profits = increased riches. Capital gains are only realized upon transacting shares. That's not the only method that the "top 1%" pay themselves (increased dividend payments, re-financing debt and rolling back $$, etc.)

I'd be interested if he'd do this analysis say during the downswing of 2000, very likely you'd see the reverse (the top 1% going down in net worth, but the bottom 99% with the standard small % gain). Of course, that would require him to be an economist and not a partisan hack.
During the 2000 recession, everyone's net worth went down. I think you meant to say that you think that the top 1% had their incomes drop relative to the bottom 99%. That is true.

http://www.cbpp.org/7-10-06inc.htm

Take a look at the chart.

Even so, the top 1% weren't hurting so much.

 

martinez

Senior member
May 10, 2005
272
0
0
Those figures are great, but they only reflect one portion of the equation, that is income. Income is at best one half of the economic equation for most people. For example, my income has increased in the last 2 years, but at the same time, I'm paying more for the basic necessities. We all know that money makes money, and on the flip side being in debt(especially bad debt, that is not debt incurred to accrue capital or other gain) is a sure way to lose more money. So until debt is factored into the equation in the same breath as income, forgive me for basically ignoring those numbers.

When things are good everyone does well, when things go bad is when those with real wealth can double their portfolio. Banks count on that, if everyone bailed out everytime there is a significant downturn our economies would be alot more volatile.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: BBond
real median family income ? the purchasing power of the typical family ? actually fell.

Meanwhile, poverty increased, as did the number of Americans without health insurance.

That ain't from gas prices, bub.

That's the effects of the greed of a very few very rich Americans.

The Republicans in here call that "Trickle Down Economics."

Yep, trickling down sh!t alright. :roll:
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
(oh that's right you are some retired unskilled, uneducated leech)

This is the attitude of someone who is "educated"?

You equate retirement with leeching? You assume people who have held jobs all their lives and been productive members of society are uneducated? You would deny people who worked all their lives their justly earned retirement?

If this is what your degree in Finance/International Business and a Masters in Business Administration taught you it's no wonder this country is so fvcked up for working people. You "Masters in Business Administration" people bring this attitude with you in everything you do -- and believe me, working people notice. Your attitude is the basis for the adversarial relationship that infects American business.

It's a pity all that "education" was wasted on one as ignorant as you.

I'll be "leeching" off of you for as long as I can. I earned it. When you get yourself all worked up looking at your SS deductions do me a favor, please think of ME! ;)
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: BBond
real median family income ? the purchasing power of the typical family ? actually fell.

Meanwhile, poverty increased, as did the number of Americans without health insurance.

That ain't from gas prices, bub.

That's the effects of the greed of a very few very rich Americans.

The Republicans in here call that "Trickle Down Economics."

Yep, trickling down sh!t alright. :roll:

"Trickle down" never worked and never will because the people who came up with the theory failed to include one essential calculation -- basic human greed. The more these mega-rich have the more they want. The more they control the more they want to control.

If anyone doubts it just look around at what bush and his mega-rich, greedy friends have created today.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
You cannot lift the wage earner by taking down the wage payer.

Neither can you lift the wage earner by concentrating all wealth among the wage payers especially when the wage payers' first priority is their own greed. And who is saying we should "take down" the wage payer?

Read the OP. The real wages of working Americans have fallen. Poverty rates have risen. A very few wealthy Americans are wealthier than ever and reaching with their greedy hands for more.

"even if you exclude capital gains from a rising stock market, in 2004 the real income of the richest 1 percent of Americans surged by almost 12.5 percent. Meanwhile, the average real income of the bottom 99 percent of the population rose only 1.5 percent. In other words, a relative handful of people received most of the benefits of growth."

"growth didn?t just bypass the poor and the lower middle class, it bypassed the upper middle class too. Even people at the 95th percentile of the income distribution ? that is, people richer than 19 out of 20 Americans ? gained only modestly. The big increases went only to people who were already in the economic stratosphere."

"Can anything be done to spread the benefits of a growing economy more widely? Of course. A good start would be to increase the minimum wage, which in real terms is at its lowest level in half a century."


Why are bush and the republicans against a minimum wage increase even as the wages of bush's own staff, congress, and CEOs increase at ridiculous rates? All people are asking for is a little fairness but what are they answered with? The bush administration's version of let them eat cake.

Even the myth of education as the road to higher earnings has been exploded through the feed the rich policies of bush.

"The other revelation is that being highly educated was no guarantee of sharing in the benefits of economic growth. There?s a persistent myth, perpetuated by economists who should know better ? like Edward Lazear, the chairman of the president?s Council of Economic Advisers ? that rising inequality in the United States is mainly a matter of a rising gap between those with a lot of education and those without. But census data show that the real earnings of the typical college graduate actually fell in 2004."

What is the logical outcome of this level of greed and concentration of wealth? Why do so few need to control so much of America's financial resources?

Greed. Plain and simple. Greed.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,782
11,418
136
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
You cannot lift the wage earner by taking down the wage payer.

You can by increasing the minimum wage to something above the poverty level.
 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
2,477
0
0
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
You cannot lift the wage earner by taking down the wage payer.

You can by increasing the minimum wage to something above the poverty level.

yeah, but then someone more wealthy will have to suffer

maybe even have to trade in the hummer *gasp*
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
You cannot lift the wage earner by taking down the wage payer.

You can by increasing the minimum wage to something above the poverty level.

Which will raise price and eventualy leave you right back where you started. It also will reduce job options for those at the low end as automation become cheap enough to replace low skill people.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,782
11,418
136
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
You cannot lift the wage earner by taking down the wage payer.

You can by increasing the minimum wage to something above the poverty level.

Which will raise price and eventualy leave you right back where you started. It also will reduce job options for those at the low end as automation become cheap enough to replace low skill people.

Because that's exactly what happened the last time it was bumped up??? :roll:
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
You cannot lift the wage earner by taking down the wage payer.

You can by increasing the minimum wage to something above the poverty level.

Which will raise price and eventualy leave you right back where you started. It also will reduce job options for those at the low end as automation become cheap enough to replace low skill people.

That's a good thing. People will have to go back to school to learn new skills to get jobs and they will be better off long term.
 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
2,477
0
0
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
You cannot lift the wage earner by taking down the wage payer.

You can by increasing the minimum wage to something above the poverty level.

Which will raise price and eventualy leave you right back where you started. It also will reduce job options for those at the low end as automation become cheap enough to replace low skill people.

Because that's exactly what happened the last time it was bumped up??? :roll:

lol exactly. the same arguments are used every time.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Pens1566
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
You cannot lift the wage earner by taking down the wage payer.

You can by increasing the minimum wage to something above the poverty level.

Which will raise price and eventualy leave you right back where you started.

That line of reasoning doesn't seem to work for polticians and CEOs, does it?