Left Behind Economics

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Some sobering facts in an explanation of just what's happening in our economy. Is the economy doing as well as bush says?

Yes. But only for a very few.

For ninety-nine percent of Americans the bush economy is a case of...
Left Behind Economics

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: July 14, 2006

I?d like to say that there?s a real dialogue taking place about the state of the U.S. economy, but the discussion leaves a lot to be desired. In general, the conversation sounds like this:

Bush supporter: ?Why doesn?t President Bush get credit for a great economy? I blame liberal media bias.?

Informed economist: ?But it?s not a great economy for most Americans. Many families are actually losing ground, and only a very few affluent people are doing really well.?

Bush supporter: ?Why doesn?t President Bush get credit for a great economy? I blame liberal media bias.?

To a large extent, this dialogue of the deaf reflects Upton Sinclair?s principle: it?s difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it. But there?s also an element of genuine incredulity. Many observers, even if they acknowledge the growing concentration of income in the hands of the few, find it hard to believe that this concentration could be proceeding so rapidly as to deny most Americans any gains from economic growth.

Yet newly available data show that that?s exactly what happened in 2004.


Why talk about 2004, rather than more recent experience? Unfortunately, data on the distribution of income arrive with a substantial lag; the full story of what happened in 2004 has only just become available, and we won?t be able to tell the full story of what?s happening right now until the last year of the Bush administration. But it?s reasonably clear that what?s happening now is the same as what happened then: growth in the economy as a whole is mainly benefiting a small elite, while bypassing most families.

Here?s what happened in 2004. The U.S. economy grew 4.2 percent, a very good number. Yet last August the Census Bureau reported that real median family income ? the purchasing power of the typical family ? actually fell. Meanwhile, poverty increased, as did the number of Americans without health insurance. So where did the growth go?

The answer comes from the economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez, whose long-term estimates of income equality have become the gold standard for research on this topic, and who have recently updated their estimates to include 2004. They show that even if you exclude capital gains from a rising stock market, in 2004 the real income of the richest 1 percent of Americans surged by almost 12.5 percent. Meanwhile, the average real income of the bottom 99 percent of the population rose only 1.5 percent. In other words, a relative handful of people received most of the benefits of growth.

There are a couple of additional revelations in the 2004 data. One is that growth didn?t just bypass the poor and the lower middle class, it bypassed the upper middle class too. Even people at the 95th percentile of the income distribution ? that is, people richer than 19 out of 20 Americans ? gained only modestly. The big increases went only to people who were already in the economic stratosphere.

The other revelation is that being highly educated was no guarantee of sharing in the benefits of economic growth. There?s a persistent myth, perpetuated by economists who should know better ? like Edward Lazear, the chairman of the president?s Council of Economic Advisers ? that rising inequality in the United States is mainly a matter of a rising gap between those with a lot of education and those without. But census data show that the real earnings of the typical college graduate actually fell in 2004.

In short, it?s a great economy if you?re a high-level corporate executive or someone who owns a lot of stock. For most other Americans, economic growth is a spectator sport.

Can anything be done to spread the benefits of a growing economy more widely? Of course. A good start would be to increase the minimum wage, which in real terms is at its lowest level in half a century.

But don?t expect this administration or this Congress to do anything to limit the growing concentration of income. Sometimes I even feel sorry for these people and their apologists, who are prevented from acknowledging that inequality is a problem by both their political philosophy and their dependence on financial support from the wealthy. That leaves them no choice but to keep insisting that ordinary Americans ? who have, in fact, been bypassed by economic growth ? just don?t understand how well they?re doing.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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I?d say fuel prices and inflation on the rise are the cause for great concern among the poor. My parents have watched the cost of living rise faster than payrolls for their entire life time. I?m hard pressed to believe there?s any president out there capable of solving that persistent problem.

As for your attempt to downplay economic growth as meaningless, it is helping tax revenues.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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real median family income ? the purchasing power of the typical family ? actually fell. Meanwhile, poverty increased, as did the number of Americans without health insurance.

That ain't from gas prices, bub. That's the effects of the greed of a very few very rich Americans.

 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
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$400,000,000,000 stolen in just the 5 1/2 years he has been in Office

not to mention the $15,000,000,000 taken away from financially challenged citizens who want to get A LOAN to go to school.. while in the same month he GAVE the Oil Industry a $15,000,000,000 tax break
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: dahunan
$400,000,000,000 stolen in just the 5 1/2 years he has been in Office

not to mention the $15,000,000,000 taken away from financially challenged citizens who want to get A LOAN to go to school.. while in the same month he GAVE the Oil Industry a $15,000,000,000 tax break

bush's priorities are quite clear. I just can't understand how people can still be tricked into denying the obvious.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,765
10,074
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Originally posted by: BBond
real median family income ? the purchasing power of the typical family ? actually fell. Meanwhile, poverty increased, as did the number of Americans without health insurance.

That ain't from gas prices, bub. That's the effects of the greed of a very few very rich Americans.

The cost of every object at the store, which every American needs, goes up when the cost to ship it across the country rises due to oil prices. Now ignore and stop attacking one of the reasons for a second and just take in the following.

Purchasing power fell for the middle class, and poverty is greater for the poor, because the cost of everything they buy is higher. Explain it on your own if you wish, but that has been the story of this country since the 1960's.

As for health care, that's multiple reasons, including the tens of millions of illegals in our hospitals.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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And other than tax cuts for his rich buddies what has bush and his republican controlled congress done about any of that?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Nothing I can recall, perhaps some devout Republican can bother looking it up if anything is to be said on his behalf. Still, I don?t recall solutions from you either. Were those left behind with the politics of "hate your enemy"?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Nothing I can recall, perhaps some devout Republican can bother looking it up if anything is to be said on his behalf. Still, I don?t recall solutions from you either. Were those left behind with the politics of "hate your enemy"?

That tired old bullsh!t isn't going to fly. I am not in a position to solve the problems that the bush administration has caused. I'm pointing out the facts of the matter, what bush and his feed the rich and starve the poor and middle class policies are doing to America. Why don't you stop the partisan bullsh!t and address the facts? bush's idea of economics is unbridled greed. Period. The facts speak for themselves. Only a blind fool could miss them.
 

martinez

Senior member
May 10, 2005
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A very big part of the problem is that it is getting easier and easier to access all kinds of debt, even for people with lower incomes. This is how the governing and business/financial elite have managed to keep the economies in many western countries(basically the global economy) ticking in the right direction. At some point interest rates will have to rise significantly, and that is going to hit home pretty hard for a lot of people. As it is already in direct proportion to how uneducated one is on financial matters, and how many loans/CC's you signed up for that you can't even cover the interest for.

I understand your angst at the current situation, but I fear that we (those that aren't extremely wealthy)will soon look back on the halcyon days of the Bush years. When everything seemed so inexpensive, and we were making the big bucks.

Personally, I do what little I can, and that is try to educate myself on ways to improve my current situation. Nothing short of a spectacularly large depression will change the current trend.
Edit*
Michael Moore, love him or hate him made an interesting observation about why Americans are loathe to complain about the rich, it's because they all believe that one day it will be them at the top, what with the American dream and all.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,765
10,074
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Nothing I can recall, perhaps some devout Republican can bother looking it up if anything is to be said on his behalf. Still, I don?t recall solutions from you either. Were those left behind with the politics of "hate your enemy"?

That tired old bullsh!t isn't going to fly. I am not in a position to solve the problems that the bush administration has caused. I'm pointing out the facts of the matter, what bush and his feed the rich and starve the poor and middle class policies are doing to America. Why don't you stop the partisan bullsh!t and address the facts? bush's idea of economics is unbridled greed. Period. The facts speak for themselves. Only a blind fool could miss them.

Blind eh? Yes, the candidate you pick in 08 will certainly fix these things. :confused:

You may not be in a position to solve anything yourself, but that doesn?t mean that through all your hatred on these issues that you don?t have a solution motivating your self righteousness on this.

As for the facts, what?s there to address? We?ve already gone over that Bush has not fixed it, but you?ll never get me to sign up to socialist ideals that are found inside the Communist Manifesto. This is what I presume you want, unlimited wealth redistribution to appear to fix everything. Feel free to correct me if I?ve pegged your solution wrong, most of it is assumed from the party line.

As for me, I don?t claim to have a solution to it and that?s why you don?t see self righteous hatred flowing towards Bush.

I find it ironic you continued the personal attacks, when I have not defended Bush on this.
 
Sep 14, 2005
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The candidate in '08 may not fix the problem, I'm just hoping they don't exacerbate it. I don't see eliminating massive tax breaks for the wealthy, subsidies for big oil and providing student loans and affordable healthcare as a socialist ideal, more like a sensible plan to keep the country strong financially. It's laughable that you claim any alternative to the borrow & spend economics of this administration equate to socialism, we're as much a socialist country as a capitalist one. Your assumptions that socialism is the party line comes from what? the misinformation from YOUR party? Just because you don't have a solution to the problem you feel you aren't justified in placing the blame for this crap where it is deserved? WTF is that, you're an apologist through and through, you acknowledge that W has screwed the pooch but refuse to hold him accountable because YOU don't have a solution?
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: martinez
A very big part of the problem is that it is getting easier and easier to access all kinds of debt, even for people with lower incomes. This is how the governing and business/financial elite have managed to keep the economies in many western countries(basically the global economy) ticking in the right direction. At some point interest rates will have to rise significantly, and that is going to hit home pretty hard for a lot of people. As it is already in direct proportion to how uneducated one is on financial matters, and how many loans/CC's you signed up for that you can't even cover the interest for.

I understand your angst at the current situation, but I fear that we (those that aren't extremely wealthy)will soon look back on the halcyon days of the Bush years. When everything seemed so inexpensive, and we were making the big bucks.

Personally, I do what little I can, and that is try to educate myself on ways to improve my current situation. Nothing short of a spectacularly large depression will change the current trend.
Edit*
Michael Moore, love him or hate him made an interesting observation about why Americans are loathe to complain about the rich, it's because they all believe that one day it will be them at the top, what with the American dream and all.



Exactly this isn't talked about as much as it should be, the average American is more in debt now than ever before. All of this great consumer spending is being done with borrowed money. I know several people that I work with that are over $40000 in credit card debt. Not to mention that in my part of the country a modest single family home starts at $200,000 and the home owners insurance(down to one choice in my state) has gone up 50% in the last 2 years.

Real wages are not keeping up with this rapid increase in costs, not even close, and people are increasingly using their CC's to finance their lifestyles. They aren't forgoing buying a boat or ipods for their kids, they're just charging it.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
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Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Nothing I can recall, perhaps some devout Republican can bother looking it up if anything is to be said on his behalf. Still, I don?t recall solutions from you either. Were those left behind with the politics of "hate your enemy"?

That tired old bullsh!t isn't going to fly. I am not in a position to solve the problems that the bush administration has caused. I'm pointing out the facts of the matter, what bush and his feed the rich and starve the poor and middle class policies are doing to America. Why don't you stop the partisan bullsh!t and address the facts? bush's idea of economics is unbridled greed. Period. The facts speak for themselves. Only a blind fool could miss them.

Blind eh? Yes, the candidate you pick in 08 will certainly fix these things. :confused:

You may not be in a position to solve anything yourself, but that doesn?t mean that through all your hatred on these issues that you don?t have a solution motivating your self righteousness on this.

As for the facts, what?s there to address? We?ve already gone over that Bush has not fixed it, but you?ll never get me to sign up to socialist ideals that are found inside the Communist Manifesto. This is what I presume you want, unlimited wealth redistribution to appear to fix everything. Feel free to correct me if I?ve pegged your solution wrong, most of it is assumed from the party line.

As for me, I don?t claim to have a solution to it and that?s why you don?t see self righteous hatred flowing towards Bush.

I find it ironic you continued the personal attacks, when I have not defended Bush on this.

More excuses. Big surprise.

And who, besides you, ever mentioned the Comunist Manifesto. Another big surprise. When faced with facts you can't refute, ugly bush economic realities you can't excuse, bring up some ridiculous reference to communism or terrorism or some other "ism" -- ANYTHING but admit the fact that under the bush regime the economy has been retooled to benefit a very narrow demographic, the very top one percent of the population.

I'm not in favor of communism or socialism and I never said I was. If you'd bother to read the entire OP you'll see that all Krugman suggested is an increase in the minimum wage. With CEO's earning in ONE DAY what the average worker earns in a YEAR and congress granting themselves pay raises as if the money grew on trees how can anyone possibly oppose an increase in the minimum wage?
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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Originally posted by: Genx87
Krugman is still pissed his side lost the cold war.

You don't understand Krugman. He's not arguing that there's anything wrong with being rich or getting rich. He's highlighting what's happening to the overwelming majority of the population . . . treading water or losing ground. A society (or at least a good one) cannot be sustained if most of the people exist for the purpose of servicing the top 2%.

A growing economy is a good thing . . . but only a fool would advocate for a rising tide that only lifts yachts.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
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Krugman should be hung for being an economist and a communist. That's a paradox that can destory the universe.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: JS80
Krugman should be hung for being an economist and a communist. That's a paradox that can destory the universe.

Just where do you get the notion that Krugman is a communist? Is it because he doesn't agree wtih the current crop of fascist oligarchs?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Krugman is still pissed his side lost the cold war.

A typically ignorant statement. At least your consistent.

lmao

now that is funny!

When you can't argue the facts resort to playing grammar policeman.

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Krugman is still pissed his side lost the cold war.

A typically ignorant statement. At least your consistent.

lmao

now that is funny!

When you can't argue the facts resort to playing grammar policeman.

Some people have weak minds and weak constitutions. Better to stick with the status quo than admit your position is both idiotic and immoral.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Likely a reflection that the "top 1%" are the majority shareholders in large corporations, and therefore increased profits = increased riches. Capital gains are only realized upon transacting shares. That's not the only method that the "top 1%" pay themselves (increased dividend payments, re-financing debt and rolling back $$, etc.)

I'd be interested if he'd do this analysis say during the downswing of 2000, very likely you'd see the reverse (the top 1% going down in net worth, but the bottom 99% with the standard small % gain). Of course, that would require him to be an economist and not a partisan hack.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
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Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Genx87
Krugman is still pissed his side lost the cold war.

A typically ignorant statement. At least your consistent.

lmao

now that is funny!

When you can't argue the facts resort to playing grammar policeman.

Some people have weak minds and weak constitutions. Better to stick with the status quo than admit your position is both idiotic and immoral.

Seems to be a LOT of that going around... ;)

Originally posted by: alchemize
Likely a reflection that the "top 1%" are the majority shareholders in large corporations, and therefore increased profits = increased riches. Capital gains are only realized upon transacting shares. That's not the only method that the "top 1%" pay themselves (increased dividend payments, re-financing debt and rolling back $$, etc.)

I'd be interested if he'd do this analysis say during the downswing of 2000, very likely you'd see the reverse (the top 1% going down in net worth, but the bottom 99% with the standard small % gain). Of course, that would require him to be an economist and not a partisan hack.

Krugman is Yale/MIT. He taught at Yale, MIT, and Stanford. At MIT he became the Ford International Professor of Economics. He is currently professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University.

Partisan hack, huh?

:roll:

Where did YOU get YOUR degree in economics?

And how the hell can you still defend the embarassment in the White House whom you apparently love so dearly and still DARE to call ANYONE a partisan hack?

Columnist Biography: Paul Krugman

Paul Krugman joined The New York Times in 1999 as a columnist on the Op-Ed Page and continues as professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University.

Mr. Krugman received his B.A. from Yale University in 1974 and his Ph.D. from MIT in 1977. He has taught at Yale, MIT and Stanford. At MIT he became the Ford International Professor of Economics.

Mr. Krugman is the author or editor of 20 books and more than 200 papers in professional journals and edited volumes. His professional reputation rests largely on work in international trade and finance; he is one of the founders of the "new trade theory," a major rethinking of the theory of international trade. In recognition of that work, in 1991 the American Economic Association awarded him its John Bates Clark medal, a prize given every two years to "that economist under forty who is adjudged to have made a significant contribution to economic knowledge." Mr. Krugman's current academic research is focused on economic and currency crises.

At the same time, Mr. Krugman has written extensively for a broader public audience. Some of his recent articles on economic issues, originally published in Foreign Affairs, Harvard Business Review, Scientific American and other journals, are reprinted in Pop Internationalism and The Accidental Theorist.

 

martinez

Senior member
May 10, 2005
272
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Likely a reflection that the "top 1%" are the majority shareholders in large corporations, and therefore increased profits = increased riches. Capital gains are only realized upon transacting shares. That's not the only method that the "top 1%" pay themselves (increased dividend payments, re-financing debt and rolling back $$, etc.)

I'd be interested if he'd do this analysis say during the downswing of 2000, very likely you'd see the reverse (the top 1% going down in net worth, but the bottom 99% with the standard small % gain). Of course, that would require him to be an economist and not a partisan hack.

Yeah, cause when the stocks take a dive, your average Joe always gets a raise....ROFL.