Left Behind Economics

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Vic


My "whine bitch bitch complain" is limited to this internet forum, and not an attempt to establish government policy.

😕

So let me get this straight, you're argument is the rest of us are attmepting to influence government policy by posting on this forum but you aren't so your "whining and bitching" is OK?

That's ridiculous.

Hey, I'm not the one who's simplistic solution to help the poor and fsck the rich is just to raise the minimum wage, despite the fact that the average worker in America already makes 4 times the minimum wage.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Vic
Just to set the record straight, the only people "making" minimum wage are teenage kids and restaurant servers who also make tips. That's exactly what that report says. Learn to read.

Wrong again! You're on a roll.

The BLS page you linked -- have you read it yet? -- reports 59.1% of those earning minimum wage or less are in "Food preparation and serving related occupations". That means -- stay with me here, math can be hard -- 40.9% are NOT. The report also says 24.8% are teenagers 16-19. That means -- more math -- 75.2% are NOT. Even if one makes the absurd claim that the two groups don't overlap, i.e., that no teenagers work in food services, that would still mean only 83.9% (40.9 + 24.8) meet your criteria, leaving 16.1% who do not. In other words, even if we stipulate the patently absurd, your claim about "the only people 'making' minimum wage" is factually wrong.

We know, of course, there is substantial overlap between the two sets of people. Indeed, you started this tangent by insinuating the only people earning minimum wage are "teenage kids at McD's", and threw out the BLS link to prove it. I proved you wrong, so now you're trying to weasel away from your disinformation. I find this rather frustrating since we know you're a smart guy. If you can understand the IRS rules and calculations, you're certainly capable of understanding the relatively simple BLS stats. That leaves us either with a blind partisanship that willfully denies truth, or a massive ego that simply cannot admit you made a mistake. Either way, "Your capacity for self-delusion is quite" pathetic.

I think I've shown your claims are exactly NOT what the report says. I'd echo your suggestion that you "learn to read". Moreover, I'd suggest you learn to think. Toodles,

74.6% in service occupations (which includes restaurants) and 12.5% in sales and office occupations (which means commissioned salespeople who don't make any sales).

You wanna play little semantic games as red herrings, go ahead, but it doesn't prove anything for you.

 

[fitzov]

If there were so few people making minimum wage, then there wouldn't be such a fuss about raising it.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Can you really blame them? What do you want them to do? Give away all their money? Wait, Gate and Buffet are already doing that.

Ok, we have two billionaires giving away money. Forbes 400 lists 346 billionaires. Soo by your count, 0.578% of the billionaires are being generous. Most impressive.

Buffet and Gates are the exceptions. The rich are getting cheaper and cheaper with their giving even as they get richer and richer.

The Ultra-Rich Give Differently From You and Me

By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON
Published: July 2, 2006

PHILANTHROPY, like foie gras, is an acquired taste. And Warren Buffett embraced charity with extraordinary gusto last week, announcing that he would give away 85 percent of his $44 billion fortune.

His megagifts, like many of his investments, buck the popular trend. Giving by the richest Americans has fallen in recent years, with the biggest declines at the very top, based on deductions Americans take on their tax returns. Among Americans who at death left a taxable fortune of $20 million or more, the average charitable bequest fell by $2 million, or 9 percent, from 1995 to 2004.

Almost alone among rich Americans, Mr. Buffett has argued that estate taxes should be increased, not eliminated. Mr. Buffett says the estate tax helps build a vibrant economy of innovators and strivers -- a true meritocracy -- and that repealing it would risk a stunted economy controlled by aristocratic inheritors. Repealing the estate tax, he has said, would be the economic equivalent of ''choosing the 2020 Olympic team by picking the eldest sons of the gold-medal winners in the 2000 Olympics.''

Bill Gates, a founder of Microsoft and close friend of Mr. Buffett, has not taken a public position on the estate tax, but his father leads the movement to keep it. Few ultrarich families agree, and 18 have spent $500 million since 1994 lobbying for estate tax repeal, according to disclosure records examined by Public Citizen and United for a Fair Economy, which want to keep the tax.

How do they give compared with the Gates and Buffett families? In some prominent cases, not nearly as generously. The Walton family owns Wal-Mart stock worth more than $90 billion, more than twice the value of the Gates family's Microsoft stock. But the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is 35 times larger than the Walton Family Foundation, tax records show.

The Mars family, known for its candy company, has an estimated net worth of $12 billion. The Mars Foundation gave away $795,000 in 2004 -- 97 grants averaging $8,200 each. The Walton Foundation gave away 127 times as much, the Gates Foundation more than 1,900 times. ''The Waltons have said they will increase their charitable giving in the future,'' said Jay Allen, a family spokesman. The Mars Foundation said the family did not comment on such matters.

Of course, until last week, Mr. Buffett was not known for his giving, either.

Drawing (Illustration by Joon Mo Kang)

Chart: ''Decline in Gifts by Wealthy Americans''
Warren Buffett's $37 billion in gifts notwithstanding, the richest and highest-earning Americans have cut back on donations since 1995.

CHARITABLE GIFTS AS A PORTION OF INCOME

INCOMES MORE THAN $1 MILLION
Among these taxpayers, the percentage of their income given away fell from 1995 to 2003.*

1995: 4.1%
2003: 3.6%

INCOMES LESS THAN $1 MILLION
The generosity of this group has grown. By 2003, they gave nearly the same share of their income as those in the million-plus income bracket.*

1995: 2.8%
2003: 3.5%

GIFTS AT DEATH

Among taxable estates worth $1 million or more, the percentage of that wealth given to charity fell from 1995 to 2004.

1995: 8.8%
2004: 7.9%

And a greater percentage of these estates gave away nothing.

73.8 percent gave nothing in 1995
78.1 percent gave nothing in 2004

The richest estates, worth $20 million or more, give a greater share of their wealth. But that share has been declining, from a quarter of the average estate to about a fifth of it.

1995: 25.3%
2004: 20.8%

42.4 percent gave nothing in 1995
47.7 percent gave nothing in 2004

*Based on deductions taken on tax returns.

(Source by Internal Revenue Service)

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: fitzov
If there were so few people making minimum wage, then there wouldn't be such a fuss about raising it.

Oh NO! PLEASE!!! Don't "fsck" our poor rich friends by raising the minimum wage!!! The effects of such a move would be devastating to our poor rich friends!

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: fitzov
If there were so few people making minimum wage, then there wouldn't be such a fuss about raising it.

2.7% of all hourly-paid workers in the US make minimum wage. If you include all workers, both hourly-paid and salary (but not the self-employed), the number is 1.6%. Of those, 74.6% work in service occupations (read: restaurants, security guards, and janitors -- looked at by industry rather than occupation, "Leisure and hospitality" makes up 62%) and 12.5% in sales and office occupations (read: retail sales and commissioned salespeople who don't make sales). 51% are 25 years and younger, 24.8% are 19 and younger. Almost one-third of all minimum wage workers live in Texas, New York, Florida, and Ohio, while at the same time those states make up less than one-quarter of the entire hourly-paid workforce.

The "fuss" is pure populism. Knee-jerk reactionaries who pretend to care use the idea of raising the minimum wage as a quick-fix feel-good solution that requires zero effort on their part. If you disagree, then perhaps someone would like to explain to me how -- when the average worker in the US makes $21/hour -- an increase in the minimum wage of anything less than that would close the wealth disparity gap? And then OTOH if we were to make sure a drastic increase, how could that not lead to massive layoffs and an economic slowdown that would then punish the very people it's supposed to help?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: fitzov
If there were so few people making minimum wage, then there wouldn't be such a fuss about raising it.

Oh NO! PLEASE!!! Don't "fsck" our poor rich friends by raising the minimum wage!!! The effects of such a move would be devastating to our poor rich friends!

Quite the opposite. Raising the minimum wage wouldn't do a thing to "fsck" our "poor rich friends." What's amusing is that you actually think it would.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Vic

I won't argue your very last sentence (as capitalism did create the middle class and that is the capitalistic ideal), but (as to the rest of your post) are you claiming that CEO's salaries drive down wages?

Just the opposite. I'm saying that if workers' wages drive up prices then CEOs' wages, which now average 262 times workers' wages, drive up prices too -- yet no one seems to complain about those CEO wages that have risen at incredible rates while real workers' wages have actually DECLINED -- and still PRICES HAVE RISEN!

CEOs make such a tiny fraction of US income that it hardly matters.

True facts won't stop liberals from wanting to give up their totalitarian rule with an iron fist.

 

[fitzov]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: fitzov
If there were so few people making minimum wage, then there wouldn't be such a fuss about raising it.

2.7% of all hourly-paid workers in the US make minimum wage. If you include all workers, both hourly-paid and salary (but not the self-employed), the number is 1.6%. Of those, 74.6% work in service occupations (read: restaurants, security guards, and janitors -- looked at by industry rather than occupation, "Leisure and hospitality" makes up 62%) and 12.5% in sales and office occupations (read: retail sales and commissioned salespeople who don't make sales). 51% are 25 years and younger, 24.8% are 19 and younger. Almost one-third of all minimum wage workers live in Texas, New York, Florida, and Ohio, while at the same time those states make up less than one-quarter of the entire hourly-paid workforce.

The "fuss" is pure populism. Knee-jerk reactionaries who pretend to care use the idea of raising the minimum wage as a quick-fix feel-good solution that requires zero effort on their part. If you disagree, then perhaps someone would like to explain to me how -- when the average worker in the US makes $21/hour -- an increase in the minimum wage of anything less than that would close the wealth disparity gap? And then OTOH if we were to make sure a drastic increase, how could that not lead to massive layoffs and an economic slowdown that would then punish the very people it's supposed to help?

There is no such animal as the average American. A more meaningful figure would be the median, since that accounts for the number of workers per interval. Figure this: if you have one person making 100,000/hr and 99 making 5$/hr, then the average worker makes 1005$/hr. Do you see how the statistic is misleading?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Vic

I won't argue your very last sentence (as capitalism did create the middle class and that is the capitalistic ideal), but (as to the rest of your post) are you claiming that CEO's salaries drive down wages?

Just the opposite. I'm saying that if workers' wages drive up prices then CEOs' wages, which now average 262 times workers' wages, drive up prices too -- yet no one seems to complain about those CEO wages that have risen at incredible rates while real workers' wages have actually DECLINED -- and still PRICES HAVE RISEN!

CEOs make such a tiny fraction of US income that it hardly matters.

True facts won't stop liberals from wanting to give up their totalitarian rule with an iron fist.

Show me Liberals in the U.S. with a "Totalitarian rule" with an iron fist.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: fitzov
If there were so few people making minimum wage, then there wouldn't be such a fuss about raising it.

Oh NO! PLEASE!!! Don't "fsck" our poor rich friends by raising the minimum wage!!! The effects of such a move would be devastating to our poor rich friends!

Quite the opposite. Raising the minimum wage wouldn't do a thing to "fsck" our "poor rich friends." What's amusing is that you actually think it would.

Hey genius, I'm not the one who said it would. I'm just ridiculing the person that did. 😉

Originally posted by: Vic


Hey, I'm not the one who's simplistic solution to help the poor and fsck the rich is just to raise the minimum wage, despite the fact that the average worker in America already makes 4 times the minimum wage.

 

[dannybin1742]

I don't have a degree in Economics. I have a degree in Finance/International Business and a Masters in Business Administration, which I think gives me some room to develop an intelligent opinion on economic theory.

essentially you have two degrees in paper pushing

 

[Pens1566]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Vic


My "whine bitch bitch complain" is limited to this internet forum, and not an attempt to establish government policy.

😕

So let me get this straight, you're argument is the rest of us are attmepting to influence government policy by posting on this forum but you aren't so your "whining and bitching" is OK?

That's ridiculous.

Hey, I'm not the one who's simplistic solution to help the poor and fsck the rich is just to raise the minimum wage, despite the fact that the average worker in America already makes 4 times the minimum wage.

The average worker makes $40k and change??? Link please.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Pens1566

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Vic


My "whine bitch bitch complain" is limited to this internet forum, and not an attempt to establish government policy.

😕

So let me get this straight, you're argument is the rest of us are attmepting to influence government policy by posting on this forum but you aren't so your "whining and bitching" is OK?

That's ridiculous.

Hey, I'm not the one who's simplistic solution to help the poor and fsck the rich is just to raise the minimum wage, despite the fact that the average worker in America already makes 4 times the minimum wage.

The average worker makes $40k and change??? Link please.

Read the thread. BBond posted the article with that info himself.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: fitzov

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: fitzov
If there were so few people making minimum wage, then there wouldn't be such a fuss about raising it.

2.7% of all hourly-paid workers in the US make minimum wage. If you include all workers, both hourly-paid and salary (but not the self-employed), the number is 1.6%. Of those, 74.6% work in service occupations (read: restaurants, security guards, and janitors -- looked at by industry rather than occupation, "Leisure and hospitality" makes up 62%) and 12.5% in sales and office occupations (read: retail sales and commissioned salespeople who don't make sales). 51% are 25 years and younger, 24.8% are 19 and younger. Almost one-third of all minimum wage workers live in Texas, New York, Florida, and Ohio, while at the same time those states make up less than one-quarter of the entire hourly-paid workforce.

The "fuss" is pure populism. Knee-jerk reactionaries who pretend to care use the idea of raising the minimum wage as a quick-fix feel-good solution that requires zero effort on their part. If you disagree, then perhaps someone would like to explain to me how -- when the average worker in the US makes $21/hour -- an increase in the minimum wage of anything less than that would close the wealth disparity gap? And then OTOH if we were to make sure a drastic increase, how could that not lead to massive layoffs and an economic slowdown that would then punish the very people it's supposed to help?

There is no such animal as the average American. A more meaningful figure would be the median, since that accounts for the number of workers per interval. Figure this: if you have one person making 100,000/hr and 99 making 5$/hr, then the average worker makes 1005$/hr. Do you see how the statistic is misleading?

Do you see how I already posted that info? 1.6% of American workers make $5.15/hour. Don't confuse the issue. It is appropriate to cite an average income in the US as income distribution closely adheres to the bell curve.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Can you really blame them? What do you want them to do? Give away all their money? Wait, Gate and Buffet are already doing that.

Ok, we have two billionaires giving away money. Forbes 400 lists 346 billionaires. Soo by your count, 0.578% of the billionaires are being generous. Most impressive.

Buffet and Gates are the exceptions. The rich are getting cheaper and cheaper with their giving even as they get richer and richer.

Of those 346 billionaires, Buffet and Gates control more wealth than the bottom 80 combined.

 

[Jeff7]

Bill Gates, a founder of Microsoft and close friend of Mr. Buffett, has not taken a public position on the estate tax, but his father leads the movement to keep it. Few ultrarich families agree, and 18 have spent $500 million since 1994 lobbying for estate tax repeal, according to disclosure records examined by Public Citizen and United for a Fair Economy, which want to keep the tax.

That is how much some people are willing to give up to avoid paying some taxes. $500 Million. Spent on lobbyists. That is just insane. Imagine winning the lottery several times over and paying it all just to lobbyists so that you don't have to pay a bit of your money to the government.

Quite the opposite. Raising the minimum wage wouldn't do a thing to "fsck" our "poor rich friends." What's amusing is that you actually think it would.

Then why do they seem to be the ones who complain loudest about raising it?

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: dahunan
$400,000,000,000 stolen in just the 5 1/2 years he has been in Office

not to mention the $15,000,000,000 taken away from financially challenged citizens who want to get A LOAN to go to school.. while in the same month he GAVE the Oil Industry a $15,000,000,000 tax break

Yep, the republicans won't be happy until there are only 2 classes, the uber rich and the dirt poor. Them along with their dimwitted base should be very proud of what they are trying to accomplish. Except when the dust settles, these tards that voted these criminals into office for 8 straight years will realize that they are not part of the republican future. They will be eating the same dirt we all are. The late 90's was far too prosperous for too many Americans, the repugs had to step in and stop all that personal wealth dead in its tracks. Mission accomplished.

:roll: at every bottom feeding Bush supporter.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Quite the opposite. Raising the minimum wage wouldn't do a thing to "fsck" our "poor rich friends." What's amusing is that you actually think it would.

Then why do they seem to be the ones who complain loudest about raising it?

Who's complaining besides a bunch of people who think that raising the minimum wage would be a be-all-end-all solution to poverty and wealth disparity despite the fact that it has never proven even remotely successful at that throughout its 68 year history.

The "rich" and corporations don't care about the minimum wage. Even Wal-Mart starts its employees above minimum wage. Those who do care and are likely to get hurt if the minimum wage were raised are small businesses, and those usually aren't owned by "the rich."


BTW, Orwell did not make that quote in your sig. It is attributed to him, but cannot be referenced.

 

[marincounty]

Let's see, the rich and corporations don't care about the minimum wage, it only affects teenagers and entry-level workers, and it doesn't really help solve poverty and wealth disparity.
So who is stopping the minimum wage from increasing? Why are all of the right-wingers so opposed to increasing it?
Just increase it immediately and it is done as a campaign issue against the Republicans.
Possibly the greed and selfishness of right-wingers won't allow them to see the forest for the trees. And the Democrats are going to beat them up on this issue, and rightfully so.

 

[fitzov]

So who is stopping the minimum wage from increasing? Why are all of the right-wingers so opposed to increasing it?

It took a civil war to end slavery. For the same reasons they didn't just end slavery and be done with it--important enough people are making money from cheap labor.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: marincounty
Let's see, the rich and corporations don't care about the minimum wage, it only affects teenagers and entry-level workers, and it doesn't really help solve poverty and wealth disparity.
So who is stopping the minimum wage from increasing? Why are all of the right-wingers so opposed to increasing it?
Just increase it immediately and it is done as a campaign issue against the Republicans.
Possibly the greed and selfishness of right-wingers won't allow them to see the forest for the trees. And the Democrats are going to beat them up on this issue, and rightfully so.

Because it is a non-issue. There is no point in raising the minimum wage, because beleive it nore wages are going up without the help of the federal goverment. Have you looked at the advertised wages for low skill jobs lately? They are not start at minimum wage

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: dannybin1742

I don't have a degree in Economics. I have a degree in Finance/International Business and a Masters in Business Administration, which I think gives me some room to develop an intelligent opinion on economic theory.

essentially you have two degrees in paper pushing

Did you have a point pulling this up after a few days? Oh I see by your sig that your e-penis is so important to you that you have to post it and go around finding threads where somebody posted their degrees. I posted mine because B0BDN asked (and didn't reply with his). Now go back to fiddling yourself over Phosphoribosyl-aminoimidazole-succinocarboxamide in your lab while your real penis lays dormant.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: marincounty
Let's see, the rich and corporations don't care about the minimum wage, it only affects teenagers and entry-level workers, and it doesn't really help solve poverty and wealth disparity.
So who is stopping the minimum wage from increasing? Why are all of the right-wingers so opposed to increasing it?
Just increase it immediately and it is done as a campaign issue against the Republicans.
Possibly the greed and selfishness of right-wingers won't allow them to see the forest for the trees. And the Democrats are going to beat them up on this issue, and rightfully so.

Because it is a non-issue. There is no point in raising the minimum wage, because beleive it nore wages are going up without the help of the federal goverment. Have you looked at the advertised wages for low skill jobs lately? They are not start at minimum wage

Some two million people earn minimum wage. Wages are not going up for everybody.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: marincounty
Let's see, the rich and corporations don't care about the minimum wage, it only affects teenagers and entry-level workers, and it doesn't really help solve poverty and wealth disparity.
So who is stopping the minimum wage from increasing? Why are all of the right-wingers so opposed to increasing it?
Just increase it immediately and it is done as a campaign issue against the Republicans.
Possibly the greed and selfishness of right-wingers won't allow them to see the forest for the trees. And the Democrats are going to beat them up on this issue, and rightfully so.

Because it is a non-issue. There is no point in raising the minimum wage, because beleive it nore wages are going up without the help of the federal goverment. Have you looked at the advertised wages for low skill jobs lately? They are not start at minimum wage

Some two million people earn minimum wage. Wages are not going up for everybody.

Yes that is a small fraction of the workforce and it is not nearly as bleak as the picture you want to make. Lots of kids, lots of young workers, lots of college students.