LED Light Bulbs - why?

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destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I still hate the color of LED's, and how bright they are when you look directly into them. My in laws used them for recessed ceiling lighting in their kitchen and living room, and if you look up you are basically blind.

I've seen that some manufacturers are starting to enclose them in "bulb" looking covers which helps reduce this, I haven't seen them in action though. Hopefully it makes the light a little softer rather than simply having an array of little spotlights.

What light is not blindingly bright when staring directly into them?
Even the 25W bathroom fixture incandescents blind the hell out of me if I look at them directly. ;)


I have one of those Philips (hey everyone, Philips has ONE L :p) LED bulbs from Home Depot, it's my closet light (I think that one was the 40W equivalent). When turned on, it seems like a soft incandescent, of the warm light variety. It is bright when looked at directly, but no more so than the incandescent it replaced.
I prefer neutral lighting, closer to daylight, but that preference actually varies room to room, by time of day, and by mood. I can't get it into my head whether I actually prefer "Daylight" (5700ish-6500K) lighting or if a little warmer is more pleasing.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
I still hate the color of LED's, and how bright they are when you look directly into them. My in laws used them for recessed ceiling lighting in their kitchen and living room, and if you look up you are basically blind.

I've seen that some manufacturers are starting to enclose them in "bulb" looking covers which helps reduce this, I haven't seen them in action though. Hopefully it makes the light a little softer rather than simply having an array of little spotlights.

I have 5 of these in my kitchen: http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051

Same color temperature as an incandescent, and the diffuser helps even the light out better than other bulbs I've seen. I don't make a point of looking directly at them, but I don't recall it ever being painful. You'd probably assume they were incandescents if you saw them.
 

Wyndru

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2009
7,318
4
76
What light is not blindingly bright when staring directly into them?
Even the 25W bathroom fixture incandescents blind the hell out of me if I look at them directly. ;)

I don't mean staring, I mean I glance up and instantly have spots in my eyes for a minute afterward. Like I said though, the ones in his house are just an array of leds with a clear cover, so there is nothing to break up the direct light. That's why I think we are seeing more of the bulb style led's coming out now, the covers shade the light a little bit, which is more similar to traditional light bulbs and easier on the eyes.

I have 5 of these in my kitchen: http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...splay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051

Same color temperature as an incandescent, and the diffuser helps even the light out better than other bulbs I've seen. I don't make a point of looking directly at them, but I don't recall it ever being painful. You'd probably assume they were incandescents if you saw them.

Yeah, those are what he should have bought. Here is a picture similar to what he has.
LED-Downlight-21W.jpg


They are really bright without a shaded cover.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
This.

Incandescent light bulbs are now banned in the EU which is idiotic beyond belief. Most have replaced them with CFL which are full of mercury. I'd rather waste a bit of power than poison myself and the environment. There are recycling stations, but lots will get thrown out with the regular trash anyway. CFL lasts nowhere near as long as they promise on the packaging, especially if you turn them off and on a lot.

CFL's are already quite efficient. Getting rid of the mercury is a bigger deal.
"Full of" can mean "less than 1 milligram."

Getting rid of the mercury is not currently possible. Mercury is what ends up putting out the ultraviolet light that causes the phosphor coating to fluoresce in visible wavelengths.
But some manufacturers have certainly cut down on the amount needed.



Problem with led is the wavelength. Most use coating to shift or filter wavelength and the coatings don't last.
It'd have to be a really lousy coating for that to happen.
What I think is more likely is that some cheap manufacturers will overdrive the blue LEDs to further boost the lumen rating, which will quickly age the emitter, causing a more rapid dropoff in output. Inadequate heatsinking will also prematurely age the emitters.



the driving circuits go before the diodes ever burn out. unfortunately led bulbs arent currently designed with replaceable boards.
There's also the problem that the screw-in sockets we've all got now were designed with the purpose of housing a very hot little filament, and perhaps also preventing that filament from contacting anything else, thus starting a fire.
Now we've got semiconductor LEDs, which need to get their heat out of the dies as effectively as possible, along with their requirement to have a driver circuit that will keep them from experiencing thermal runaway.



I still hate the color of LED's, and how bright they are when you look directly into them. My in laws used them for recessed ceiling lighting in their kitchen and living room, and if you look up you are basically blind.

I've seen that some manufacturers are starting to enclose them in "bulb" looking covers which helps reduce this, I haven't seen them in action though. Hopefully it makes the light a little softer rather than simply having an array of little spotlights.
The color depends entirely on the emitter used, just as with the phosphor used in fluorescents.
LEDs and fluorescents both are available which put out light that's indistinguishable from a typical incandescent - 2700K color temperature.
Some manufacturers just use the cheapest white LED they can find, so the low-cost lights will give out light that's somewhere around 6000-8000K, which is "daylight" at the 6000 end, and more blue as the color temperature goes up. The CRI of those things is likely to suck as well.

Philips' AmbientLED line uses this cover, though the cover is actually what contains the phosphor that converts some of the blue light produced by the LEDs into yellow. It looks like those lights are also 2700K, so they should look just like incandescent, though the CRI is 80, so colors will look pretty good, but not quite entirely perfect. This of course depends on how good your eyes are with colors. :sneaky:
 
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Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
184
106
Hmmm... I'm surprised that the overwhelmingly positive response to LED bulbs. Might have to pick a few up to try out next time I hit up Ikea or Home Depot.

But has anyone seen a 4100k color temp (?) LED available?

I like using 2700k or "soft white" (incandescent) for lighting rooms, but I "need" a 4100k-ish "cool white" (fluorescent-ish) for my monitor's backlight. I've tried 6500k and it's too blue for my liking.

And if no one's heard, apparently, Ikea is going to be getting rid of CFLs by 2016. From then on, it's LED or nothing -- they "banned" incandescents from their own stores a while ago.
 

RelaxTheMind

Platinum Member
Oct 15, 2002
2,245
0
76
There's also the problem that the screw-in sockets we've all got now were designed with the purpose of housing a very hot little filament, and perhaps also preventing that filament from contacting anything else, thus starting a fire.
Now we've got semiconductor LEDs, which need to get their heat out of the dies as effectively as possible, along with their requirement to have a driver circuit that will keep them from experiencing thermal runaway.

it would be nice for a new standard to replace the old screw type where the driving circuits are built in with proper heat dissipation.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
53,091
47,225
136
We just replaced 40 GU10 halogen bulbs with LED units in one of our stores. They are 20 feet up above an unmovable built in piece of store furniture (requires assembly of scaffolding to reach them all). 30K hour life versus 2K hours for the original halogens. Money well spent.

We switched out all our can fixtures to CFLs two years ago. When they start to go we'll be replacing them with LED units. The time savings in not having to constantly replace hard (or impossible) to reach bulbs is well worth the extra expense per unit. The power savings are a substantial bonus since most of the fixtures need to be on 20ish hours a day.
 

Viper GTS

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
38,107
433
136
I have 10 of these now (the 14W, 1100 lumen version):

http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Documents/RETRO053.64ed2042-64e7-4e16-9150-ffda82e7bd6d.pdf

I've been pretty happy with them. The first three were to maximize light output in my 'office' where I have enough server + desktop gear on one circuit that liberating 130W was worth it for the headroom. After I decided I liked those I picked up enough to fully outfit my dining room fixture and a couple other places.

I've averaged a little under $35 apiece I think, so they're definitely not cheap. I like the light output though and when dimmed they stay the same color unlike incandescent which end up quite orange.

A few oddities I've noticed:

They buzz a little when dimmed. Not horrible, but if you're standing right under the fixture you can hear it.

Several times now I've dimmed the fixture only to have them eventually just shut off - Apparently they don't like being dimmed all that well, & below a certain threshold they may or may not stay on. Increase the dimmer and they all come right back on but it's kind of annoying.

I plan to get some PAR floods and a few others as well, I found a few cans in my rented house that have normal 60W omni-directional bulbs in them... Apparently the last renters were lazy and/or stupid.

Viper GTS
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Here's a link for LED geeks

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-become-only-residential-light-option-by-2018

I'm intrigued by the thought of having dedicated 48VDC for in-house lighting. That would make solar and wind generated electricity a little more efficient.

I'm remodelling my new house room by room and will likely attempt to do this. The problem isn't the wiring as I'll just use the standard romex so if someone wanted to switch back to 120v someday they could - it's that there aren't any DC fixtures out there worth a damn. I'll have to build my own or retrofit a fixture I like.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
Replaced some of my back porch bulbs with LED this past Summer. Best thng was they didn't attract nearly as many insects, since they don't have the heat output.

I'm guessing it would be a lack of UV light, rather than less heat.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Hmmm... I'm surprised that the overwhelmingly positive response to LED bulbs. Might have to pick a few up to try out next time I hit up Ikea or Home Depot.

But has anyone seen a 4100k color temp (?) LED available?

I like using 2700k or "soft white" (incandescent) for lighting rooms, but I "need" a 4100k-ish "cool white" (fluorescent-ish) for my monitor's backlight. I've tried 6500k and it's too blue for my liking.

And if no one's heard, apparently, Ikea is going to be getting rid of CFLs by 2016. From then on, it's LED or nothing -- they "banned" incandescents from their own stores a while ago.
Just an LED? Or a complete lighting setup?

The Rebel is available at 4000K. The LXW8-PW40 is 4000K, with 80CRI.
(Fair warning, Philips seems to still be using a single US Robotics 56k modem as their server's primary data feed.)
They've also got the Luxeon H, which consists of a bunch of LED dies in series, bundled in their standard package, so you get a forward voltage of 53V, 96V, or 192V (different models).

I'm not as familiar with Cree's offerings, but they've got their Xlamp lines, which also have some very good specs. From what I've seen, they also tend to carry a higher luminous efficacy than the Rebels.



...

A few oddities I've noticed:

They buzz a little when dimmed. Not horrible, but if you're standing right under the fixture you can hear it.

Several times now I've dimmed the fixture only to have them eventually just shut off - Apparently they don't like being dimmed all that well, & below a certain threshold they may or may not stay on. Increase the dimmer and they all come right back on but it's kind of annoying.

...
That sucks. I guess the buzz when dimming is an inductor in the power supply.
Triac dimming works great for resistive lights, as they're just a wire that gets hot - they do wacky things to the AC sine wave to cut down the total power delivered to the load.
A power supply needs to be designed to handle it though, and it looks like some don't do such a good job.



it would be nice for a new standard to replace the old screw type where the driving circuits are built in with proper heat dissipation.
Yes, though I'm not terribly hopeful of anything, at least not without government intervention.
Remember how well the DVD+RW/DVD-RW/DVD-RAM and Blu-ray/HD-DVD standardization efforts went? :|
Yeah...
At least with the ±RW battle, it was possible to build drives that could handle both. With physical objects though, where the different manufacturers may deliberately try to ensure that their product is incompatible with anything else on the market, that won't work so well.

Philips is trying something like that with their Fortimo line. Inside, it's just a group of royal blue Rebels, along with a thermistor to report temperature back to a properly-equipped power supply; the yellow top is the phosphor disc, behind a glass window That way, it's a relatively diffused light source, and they can freely modify the guts of it as LED packages or technology changes. Problem is, the things are still pretty damned expensive.


I'm guessing it would be a lack of UV light, rather than less heat.
That, and possibly the wacky spectrum of LED lights. The things are made so that they look normal to human eyes. Well, at least the good ones are.





* - I use Philips' Rebel LEDs at work in one of our product lines, as well as at home for a fun side project :), so that's why I'm rather familiar with them. I link to Future Electronics' site because they are the only distributor of these things.
 
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Sluggo

Lifer
Jun 12, 2000
15,488
5
81
I'm guessing it would be a lack of UV light, rather than less heat.

I was actually just out in the garage (drinking beer) and tested with one of those little laser thermometers.

CFL in the garage was about 120 F and the LED bulb outside was about 60F. Not saying you are incorrect, but there is quite a difference in the actual temp of the bulb, and I didn't even have an incandescent bulb around to point it at.

EDIT:

Brought the thermometer inside just out of curiosity. About 160F for a regular recess can bulb, and nearly 220F for a halogen recess can bulb.
 
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phucheneh

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2012
7,306
5
0
Sorry if I missed it, but:

Is an LED even any more efficient when you consider what you have to build into an array of LED's inside the 'bulb'? E.g. Large and/or many resistors?

Even if you had an LED capable of taking 110v, wouldn't it basically be a short without other electrical components? LED's don't have resistance, do they? I know normal diodes don't (when forward-biased), but I've never quite understood what gets added to to make light...obviously you can't make light energy out of nothing, so they have to consume some voltage, right?
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
I also hate how bright LEDs tend to be, I have covered up many an unnecessary LED on console systems, or computer components (speakers, monitors have several, my case had a bunch inside the front fan I disconnected... just ripped the cords out) and some others which I deem more important, I have tried covering in Lithographer's Tape. That was supposedly going to dull their brightness but it didn't really... not much.

When I was still in the Navy earlier this year I had a small barracks room and all 3 current gen consoles, a big computer, TV, alarm clock, etc... and the number of lights at night in that small space when I'd try to go to bed, was what inspired me to start covering shit up.

I'd use LED light bulbs only when they get to the point where they can be really dimmed. Are they there yet?
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
184
106
Just an LED? Or a complete lighting setup?

The Rebel is available at 4000K. The LXW8-PW40 is 4000K, with 80CRI.
(Fair warning, Philips seems to still be using a single US Robotics 56k modem as their server's primary data feed.)

I meant complete setup as in a bulb that's ready to go into a regular E26 fixture. I checked out Philips' residential product line earlier and according to their product literature, it's all 2700k. Guess that shouldn't be a surprise because one of the "negatives" of CFLs, or anything fluorescent, during the switchover was the deathly color temperature -- exactly what I'm looking for. I wouldn't use 4100k for a full room though, so bit of a niche.

Also, I hope they start frosting the lens over LED diodes more often. It's a lot of light for a small area, and Ikea (and probably the EU) throws a Class 2 "laser" warning on them. My 3D Maglite is even worse.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
I also hate how bright LEDs tend to be, I have covered up many an unnecessary LED on console systems, or computer components (speakers, monitors have several, my case had a bunch inside the front fan I disconnected... just ripped the cords out) and some others which I deem more important, I have tried covering in Lithographer's Tape. That was supposedly going to dull their brightness but it didn't really... not much.

When I was still in the Navy earlier this year I had a small barracks room and all 3 current gen consoles, a big computer, TV, alarm clock, etc... and the number of lights at night in that small space when I'd try to go to bed, was what inspired me to start covering shit up.

I'd use LED light bulbs only when they get to the point where they can be really dimmed. Are they there yet?

I don't know why you're using that issue with LED indicator lights as a point against LED light bulbs. LED light bulbs replace regular light bulbs. They don't create unnecessary light or more light than you'd want; there are LED equivalents for the common incandescent wattages (though I haven't found anything over a 75 or 90 watt equivalent).

But to answer your question, there are dimmable LEDs. I've found that CFLs have a very narrow dimming range, but LEDs have a wide range just like incandescents.
 

Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,773
4
0
I was just using this thread as a chance to rant about LEDs - I have no experience with LED lightbulbs yet
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Sorry if I missed it, but:

Is an LED even any more efficient when you consider what you have to build into an array of LED's inside the 'bulb'? E.g. Large and/or many resistors?
Good LED sources use a constant current driver, which will adjust its voltage so that the current into the LED(s) stays the same.
From LED to LED, the forward voltage varies, due to manufacturing process variations. Reds can go as low as 1.8V, and blue can go up to 4.00V. So if you were to apply 1.8V to a Rebel LED, you might push 350mA through it. Apply 4.00V to that same one, and you'll probably damage it - the voltage-vs-current curve is quite steep, so a tiny change in applied voltage can cause a large increase in current.


Even if you had an LED capable of taking 110v, wouldn't it basically be a short without other electrical components? LED's don't have resistance, do they?
All things have resistance, except superconductors.

An incandescent filament is just a wire that's placed across the hot and neutral terminals of an outlet. It has a resistance, especially once it's hot, and that's what regulates its current.
Ohm's law: I=V/R
For that, it's perfectly linear. If the resistance stays the same, and the voltage changes, the current will change linearly.
For LEDs, it's not linear. For that low-voltage red LED I mentioned, going from 1.8V to 2.0V could easily double the current, up to 700mA. 4V might try to push 3000mA through it, which would either blow out the bond wires, or else start to damage the die.

So, they don't quite work the same way as a resistor. They're specified with that forward voltage drop, Vf.
Meaning, if you apply power to it, the voltage on one side is going to be Vf less than on the other. The voltage "lost" there is used to push charge through the LED die. In the process, the electrons lose energy, which is converted to light and heat.

The other thing to watch for is that the forward voltage changes with temperature. Heat it up, and the forward voltage drops. The result is that the voltage required to push a certain current through the LED is reduced. So if you turn on the LED at 1.8V, you might get 350mA through it. But now it's heating up. Now the forward voltage is 1.7V, so the 1.8V still applied to it is now able to push 400mA through. So you've got more heat being generated. Down goes the Vf again. Now the effective Vf is 1.6V. Current jumps up again, and you've got thermal runaway in progress.

Having a current-limiting resistor in series is one way of dealing with this, though having many LEDs in series means you can have a wide total voltage swing.
The ideal method is that constant-current power supply. It will sense that the load is suddenly drawing slightly more current than it was a moment ago, so it will automatically lower its output voltage to maintain the normal current output.


I know normal diodes don't (when forward-biased), but I've never quite understood what gets added to to make light...obviously you can't make light energy out of nothing, so they have to consume some voltage, right?
It's the chemicals in them that convert electrical energy to light.

For high-brightness LEDs, there are two primary constructions that I usually see:
InGaN and AlInGaP
Indium gallium nitride (blue and green) and Aluminum Indium Gallium Phosphide (red and amber).
Different doping levels give the different colors.
And, it's "amber," which is orangish and not yellow, simply because that's all the AlInGaP tech can do. There's a gap right between these two chemistries, and that's where yellow is.
There is a GaP LED, gallium phosphide, that can do real yellow, but I've only ever seen them used as panel indicators; they just can't manage any appreciable brightness.

If you're buying LEDs by the reel, you can specify a bin. The best I've seen for amber is 584.5 - 587 nanometers, which is about as close to yellow as you're going to get right now, without mixing together red and green emitters.

A little more about that voltage drop: Say you've got a regular silicon diode. 0.7V drop. It doesn't matter how much voltage you're applying across it, the voltage on one side will be 0.7V lower than on the other. Then the amount of heat it generates is that 0.7V * the current in amps passing through. So it's not really like a resistor, where the voltage drop is dependent on the current. LEDs have the voltage drop, but it's not so constant, and it is indeed quite easy to kill an LED like that. (9V across a green LED will briefly give you an orange LED, assuming it doesn't blow itself apart like a tiny firecracker. :))



I also hate how bright LEDs tend to be, I have covered up many an unnecessary LED on console systems, or computer components (speakers, monitors have several, my case had a bunch inside the front fan I disconnected... just ripped the cords out) and some others which I deem more important, I have tried covering in Lithographer's Tape. That was supposedly going to dull their brightness but it didn't really... not much.
A black Sharpie will help a bit.
If that fails, electrical tape.

That's a matter of the manufacturers driving the LEDs hard, or else specifying bright ones. Bright blinky lights sell more stuff, I guess.
When I'm putting indicator LEDs on something, it's a balance of making sure they're visible to someone wiring up the product in daylight, but also so that they're not blinding if they're working at night.



When I was still in the Navy earlier this year I had a small barracks room and all 3 current gen consoles, a big computer, TV, alarm clock, etc... and the number of lights at night in that small space when I'd try to go to bed, was what inspired me to start covering shit up.

I'd use LED light bulbs only when they get to the point where they can be really dimmed. Are they there yet?
The problem is that triac dimming that's commonly used.
Dimming LEDs is darn easy: PWM. Pulse width modulation. You turn the LED on and off really fast (I prefer at least 5kHz, so that I can't see the flickering), and as you vary the amount of time that the LED stays on, your eye registers that it's getting dimmer and brighter.
The problem is that we don't use dimmers that send out this kind of pulsing signal, so the power supplies need to be a little more complicated so that they can use the (intentionally) malformed AC waveform to tell the output that it needs to dim.



I meant complete setup as in a bulb that's ready to go into a regular E26 fixture. I checked out Philips' residential product line earlier and according to their product literature, it's all 2700k. Guess that shouldn't be a surprise because one of the "negatives" of CFLs, or anything fluorescent, during the switchover was the deathly color temperature -- exactly what I'm looking for. I wouldn't use 4100k for a full room though, so bit of a niche.

Also, I hope they start frosting the lens over LED diodes more often. It's a lot of light for a small area, and Ikea (and probably the EU) throws a Class 2 "laser" warning on them. My 3D Maglite is even worse.
Ah, ok.
It's an interesting issue: The Sun's surface is in the 6000 Kelvin neighborhood, and our atmosphere scatters blue light all over the place, so you'd think we'd be used to that. Instead, we've grown accustomed to light that's about half that temperature, like it's an early sunset indoors. Maybe it's like the association we've formed between high framerate video and cheap daytime TV shows - so we're stuck, for now, with lots of movies that are at a slideshow-level 23.976fps. :D

Part of the problem is likely the lousy CRI of a lot of early CFL and LED bulbs, and the cheaper ones still on the market today. Even those Luxeon and Xlamp emitters from Philips and Cree can go down as low as 60CRI.

Admittedly, I've come to like light around the 2700K-3000K range.
I'm actually in the process of constructing some manner of indoor light using some 90-95CRI 3000K Rebels, on my own circuitboard design. Damn bright little suckers. :awe:
Sure it's going to be a bit more expensive than your average floor lamp, and I'm not entirely sure how to handle the thermal situation....but it's also kind of a hobby. I've loved LEDs ever since at least middle school. It was high school when I bought my first blue LED; they'd only been in existence for a year or two at the time. So awesome. :) Then a friend picked it up to see what the fuss was about, and hooked it straight to a 9V battery. *sigh* This is why we can't have blue things.
 
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Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,908
4,940
136
LED is good for making my tv look sexier compared to the chubbier flat panels that have just let themselves go, but that's about it.

I don't mean staring, I mean I glance up and instantly have spots in my eyes for a minute afterward. Like I said though, the ones in his house are just an array of leds with a clear cover, so there is nothing to break up the direct light. That's why I think we are seeing more of the bulb style led's coming out now, the covers shade the light a little bit, which is more similar to traditional light bulbs and easier on the eyes.



Yeah, those are what he should have bought. Here is a picture similar to what he has.
LED-Downlight-21W.jpg


They are really bright without a shaded cover.

I feel like a Deer when I gaze into them.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
I have a feeling a new lighting technology will completely replace LED lighting (for socket-type lighting), but not sure how long it will take to get to market. The one I'm thinking of is basically some chemicals of some sort that are sandwiched between plastic membranes/sheets.

i'm thinking LED's future isn't in sockets but in the fixtures themselves.