• We should now be fully online following an overnight outage. Apologies for any inconvenience, we do not expect there to be any further issues.

LED Light Bulbs - why?

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
184
106
So, I've been stalking Ikea's website and just came back from a visit to the store, and noticed that they have some relatively cheap LED light bulbs. I've seen some at Wal-Mart and Costco too in the past few years, but those were $30 and up -- the Wal-mart one was a huge one with a few dozen LEDs on it.

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40222476/

The one above is from Ikea for "only" $13. But it's rated at 400 lumens and 8.5 watts.

The 7W CFL I use as a backlight is something like 385 lumens (around a 40W incand.). Other common 40W-equivalent CFLs range from 7W to 10W.

Is LED tech still very early in its infancy, or is this as good as it gets?


Edit:

Okay, 12.5W = 60W LED from Phillips. Only $30...

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/125w-led-a-dimmable-soft-white/926038

Edit2: removed "suck"
 
Last edited:

deanx0r

Senior member
Oct 1, 2002
890
20
76
Keep in mind that LED tend to last much longer than CFL and is mercury free. Most LED you will find are 1W or less and have poor output. LED doesn't suck, it just depends on the application. I've started using LED for aquarium illumination this year, and it would be my technology of choice over HID or fluorescent.
 

juiio

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2000
1,433
4
81
Costco has 60W equivalent bulbs that are on sale for $5 in many Costcos right now. The lifespan for those is over 20 years.

CFLs are toxic if they break, and can be a pain to dispose of properly, since many towns do not have any place that takes them. In my experience, they don't last any longer than traditional bulbs, either. The sooner CFLs go away, the better.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
LED lighting WILL get cheaper in time.

But more importantly, they will almost certainly outlast at least one, if not three or four consecutive CFL bulbs (possibly 10+ consecutive CFL bulbs - depending on frequency of on/off cycles and specific LED bulb in question).

I have a feeling a new lighting technology will completely replace LED lighting (for socket-type lighting), but not sure how long it will take to get to market. The one I'm thinking of is basically some chemicals of some sort that are sandwiched between plastic membranes/sheets.

Regardless, LED lighting should see a boom when the base substrate can be switched up and they can be produced in larger quantities yet cheaper in total than today.


LED tech doesn't suck by any means. But it's just not cheap to produce quality "bulbs" that can rival the best standard lighting today. That's the largest stretch of purpose LED tech has ever seen. The basic LED itself can handle longevity, but throwing a bunch of them together, running "straight" off household socket electricity -- which introduces an AC-to-DC element -- means the circuity and other parts are going to produce a fair bit of heat. Which causes degradation and shortens the overall longevity of the bulbs if cheaper parts are used. The one Philips bulb won a U.S. award (from one of the federal agency's lighting competitions) due to having the best light quality combined with insane longevity. Ideally, it should probably outlive some of the cheaper TVs out there. :p
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
184
106
The mercury part is a definite plus, and I can't wait too -- a genius in the house (not me) was dragging a CFL up the stairs by the cord and it broke. Nice little panic that day. And the same genius broke a bunch (clumsy) by dropping them in the basement.

It's just that I remember years ago when there was talk about how LEDs were just starting to be developed for regular bulbs. I remember hearing that they converted the majority of electricity (moreso than CFLs) into light rather than heat, and they would use less energy.

A bit disappointing that their main selling point is just getting rid of mercury -- it's an important one, but still. Not really concerned about life considering the luck we've had with CFLs. My backlight is going on 5 years now.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
The mercury part is a definite plus, and I can't wait too -- a genius in the house (not me) was dragging a CFL up the stairs by the cord and it broke. Nice little panic that day. And the same genius broke a bunch (clumsy) by dropping them in the basement.

It's just that I remember years ago when there was talk about how LEDs were just starting to be developed for regular bulbs. I remember hearing that they converted the majority of electricity (moreso than CFLs) into light rather than heat, and they would use less energy.

A bit disappointing that their main selling point is just getting rid of mercury -- it's an important one, but still. Not really concerned about life considering the luck we've had with CFLs. My backlight is going on 5 years now.
It depends on the fluorescent tube and driver. Some fluorescents can be quite impressively efficient. T8 tubes can easily deliver over 90 lumens per watt, though you'll then get some efficiency losses in the driver. (The same happens with LED drivers.) Some CFLs are down to less than 1mg of mercury, and the linear tubes are also cutting way back.
LEDs range from around 50 lm/W up to 112 lm/W and maybe a bit beyond. Again, you'll then see efficiency losses in the driver.
Usually the lower cost you go on the driver, the worse the efficiency is. Lower-quality components, and fewer components as well, can end up leading to higher losses to heat.
Some LED lamps or bulb replacements will also use really cheap power circuits, and then you can be looking at an overall system efficiency that a good halogen tube can beat.:|

The other thing to watch for is CRI - Color Rendering Index. Something like a cheap fluorescent shoplight might have a CRI of 60-70; colors under that are going to look a bit wacky.

LEDs are also not terribly great at converting electricity to light, though they have certainly improved dramatically, thanks in part to the infusion of money from early adopters of LED lighting. Some of that's due to their use of a semiconductor material, but also because the materials they tend to use carry with them a high index of refraction; it ends up being difficult to effectively extract the light from the die once it's been produced.
But they're immensely better at it than incandescent, which is really just a space heater that also happens to put out a little bit of light that we're able to see, and they can be better at it than fluorescent lights.

LEDs got attention because they could put out a single color of light, useful in indicator applications, including large indicators like traffic signals. So instead of wasting a lot of extra energy that was being put into first making a filament very hot, generating a lot of useless infrared in the process, and then filtering out most of the small amount of visible light it could produce, an LED source would instead directly generate the color desired. That's a big efficiency gain there.

Then someone got the idea to use them for lighting.
They got a shaky start, because the light we're used to includes a mess of wavelengths all across our visible spectrum. So the goal was to take something meant to put out a narrow band of radiation, and spread it out so it looked white, and to also do so in a way that would make colors look reasonable. Not so simple now. :)

And you do indeed still see LED lights that look very blue, and have lousy color rendering. White LEDs work by generating short-wavelength blue light, which passes through a phosphor coating that converts some of it to a rough yellowish color. The combination of blue and yellow looks white. But to pump up their lumen ratings, a lot of them like to let more of the blue go through unconverted. So you get that high lumen value that the sales&marketing groups love (ooooh, big numbers!), but the light looks bluer. Using cheap phosphors is also way to keep costs down, but also makes for poor-quality light.

Some manufacturers, at least of the emitters themselves, do focus on quality. Philips has their Luxeon S and Luxeon Rebel lines, and Cree's got their X-Lamp CXAs. Philips' offerings tend to lag in the efficacy department, particularly in the warm (2700-3000K) color temperatures, which is fairly common, but Cree's X-Lamps maintain >100lm/W even at the difficult 2700K color temperature.

The Luxeon Rebel linked above has a nice CRI of 90-95; the X-Lamps do have that high-CRI option as well, but I don't know where they can actually be purchased, at least if you don't want to buy 100pcs of them, at around $28 each. :eek: Still, the regularly-available ones give a minimum CRI of 80, which certainly isn't bad. And it'll put out as much light as a 4' fluorescent tube, from an emitter that's under 1 square inch.
 

rockyct

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2001
6,656
32
91
LEDs right now work great in areas where the light gets switch on and off often for short amounts of times or in areas that are too small for CFLs. I wouldn't use them as a room light right now but I think it's only a matter of time. They also work better in cold environments as they don't have any warm up period. Modern CFLs also have a very short warm up period compared to 10-15 years ago so while LEDs are instant on, that's not a huge deal compared to a CFL.

Currently they really don't offer much of a energy savings over CFLs but if they are properly driven it could be a decade before the bulb needs to be replaced. However, it really remains to be seen if the driver circuitry is good enough in consumer bulbs as well as the heat dissipation required to drive these high powered LEDs. A year or two ago they really didn't make much sense to use, but now they do have certain applications where I'd definitely get them. I just replaced some of those small flame incandescent bulbs with the LED version they sell at Costco in a four pack. The light was a tad cooler and more artificial than the incandescent, but overall I'm quite happy with them.
 

JimmiG

Platinum Member
Feb 24, 2005
2,024
112
106
Keep in mind that LED tend to last much longer than CFL and is mercury free. Most LED you will find are 1W or less and have poor output. LED doesn't suck, it just depends on the application. I've started using LED for aquarium illumination this year, and it would be my technology of choice over HID or fluorescent.

This.

Incandescent light bulbs are now banned in the EU which is idiotic beyond belief. Most have replaced them with CFL which are full of mercury. I'd rather waste a bit of power than poison myself and the environment. There are recycling stations, but lots will get thrown out with the regular trash anyway. CFL lasts nowhere near as long as they promise on the packaging, especially if you turn them off and on a lot.

CFL's are already quite efficient. Getting rid of the mercury is a bigger deal.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
Costco has 60W equivalent bulbs that are on sale for $5 in many Costcos right now. The lifespan for those is over 20 years.
i really don't believe these claims for a minute. Parts of the bulb may be rated at that but I just doubt that especially after seeing so many cfl die way before their time.

The only led I am aware of now worth buying are the Phillips ones that are yellow with four bands around the up bulb but they are about 17 bucks for 60w equivalent.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,091
10,562
126
I despise CFLs, and have been slowly hording 40w incandescents which is my preferred lamp. Claims made on the benefits of CFLs are distortions of truth, or outright lies. I have an interest in LEDs, but haven't seriously looked into them due to the price, and the companies poor track record regarding truth in marketing.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
100,364
17,924
126
Problem with led is the wavelength. Most use coating to shift or filter wavelength and the coatings don't last.
 

T9D

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2001
5,320
6
0
Those Phillips ones from home depot are flipping awesome. I bought one for my room. The light is perfect and very bright. Totally replaced my incandescent very well.

I couldn't be happier with it. And it will last 20 years or so. I've always hated CFL for many reasons. But the Phillips LED is amazing. The price is very high though for now. Don't forget that one is dimmable too however.

Go buy one and try it out you won't be disappointed.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,081
136
As others have stated, they will get better. Right now they arent the best deal for your money. Too expensive, too dim, not a major energy savor. But they've been progressing much faster than any other light source.
 

T9D

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2001
5,320
6
0
Rumor has it that Phillips is also coming out with a 100 watt equivalent.
 

RelaxTheMind

Platinum Member
Oct 15, 2002
2,245
0
76
the driving circuits go before the diodes ever burn out. unfortunately led bulbs arent currently designed with replaceable boards.
 

postmortemIA

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2006
7,721
40
91
the driving circuits go before the diodes ever burn out. unfortunately led bulbs arent currently designed with replaceable boards.

Yep, and that might be a future: make them two-part with a different socket, so that both parts can be replaced independently. This is also problem with the CFLs.
 

mrrman

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2004
8,497
3
0
Ive changed my whole house and outside lights/yard lights to LED over 2 years ago, never had a bulb go yet
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
I despise CFLs, and have been slowly hording 40w incandescents which is my preferred lamp. Claims made on the benefits of CFLs are distortions of truth, or outright lies. I have an interest in LEDs, but haven't seriously looked into them due to the price, and the companies poor track record regarding truth in marketing.

I had no problem with the spectrum put out by CFL's but out of the 7 I've bought so far only one still works, I switched back to 40's as well except for the garage, that gets a 100w.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
143
106
I'm waiting for the tech to become more cost effective where it definitively trumps regular bulbs. Right now it's iffy, even on sale.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
LEDs are better than incandescents because they are more efficient.

LEDs are better than CFLs because they turn on instantly, don't have to "warm up," and they're actually dimmable (dimmable CFLs suck). I've been replacing all of the CFLs in my house with LEDs as they die.

I have had one LED die, and it was replaced under warranty. It wasn't actually the LEDs in the bulb that died, it was something internal.
 

Sluggo

Lifer
Jun 12, 2000
15,488
5
81
Replaced some of my back porch bulbs with LED this past Summer. Best thng was they didn't attract nearly as many insects, since they don't have the heat output.
 

Wyndru

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2009
7,318
4
76
I still hate the color of LED's, and how bright they are when you look directly into them. My in laws used them for recessed ceiling lighting in their kitchen and living room, and if you look up you are basically blind.

I've seen that some manufacturers are starting to enclose them in "bulb" looking covers which helps reduce this, I haven't seen them in action though. Hopefully it makes the light a little softer rather than simply having an array of little spotlights.