Learning to Drive a Standard

[Zenmervolt]

<<

<< Going slow, try letting it just idle along in first. >>



what do you mean by this? how do you idle in first without stalling out? >>

Most cars will take off without any throttle input at all if you are really smooth with the clutch. For example, if I engage the clutch smoothly and slowly in my 914 (95 hp on a good day), I can take off from a stop with the engine at idle (ie not touching the throttle pedal). I'm still getting used to the 914, but on my motorcycle I don't even give it any throttle until I'm moving. I should point out that neither of these vehicles has an idle speed controller (in any modern sense at least, the 914 is 1st gen. EFI), so it's not necessary to have a modern vehicle to creep along in 1st gear.

ZV

 

[Peetoeng]

<< So hypothetically speaking, how many of you with stick shifts let a complete newbie learn with your car ? I think the primary reason people would say hell no would be because of the wear on the clutch (nevermind the possibility of banging up the car). Will the clutch wear a great deal if you're just starting out ? >>



I did once to two teenage girls:disgust:. It was even more challenging for parallel parking because the car didn't have power steering. They managed to learn it and passed the driving test, but I would never do this again. They tend to lug the engine (too fast engaging the clutch, not enough throttle) rather than slip the transmission.

 

[Peetoeng]

<< So hypothetically speaking, how many of you with stick shifts let a complete newbie learn with your car ? I think the primary reason people would say hell no would be because of the wear on the clutch (nevermind the possibility of banging up the car). Will the clutch wear a great deal if you're just starting out ? >>



I did once to two teenage girls:disgust:. It was even more challenging for parallel parking because the car didn't have power steering. They managed to learn it and passed the driving test, but I would never do this again. They tend to lug the engine (too fast engaging the clutch, not enough throttle) rather than slip the transmission.

 

[kt]

<< So hypothetically speaking, how many of you with stick shifts let a complete newbie learn with your car ? I think the primary reason people would say hell no would be because of the wear on the clutch (nevermind the possibility of banging up the car). Will the clutch wear a great deal if you're just starting out ? >>


I am more concern with my transmission and gears.. clutch is more durable than most people are willing to give it credit for. One thing I've noticed is newbie stick drivers tends to forget about the clutch anyhow. They will try to push into gears or pull out of gears forgetting to step on the clutch. Then they get freaked out when they hear this loud screeching noise.. and I go, "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, my gears!!!!!! step on the clutch, step on the clutch!" Then they step on the gas instead, and you look over to check the RPM just to see it hit the redline...eeks! Thanks for bringing that horrible flashback back to mind again..

 

[Spooner]

<< I am more concern with my transmission and gears.. clutch is more durable than most people are willing to give it credit for. One thing I've noticed is newbie stick drivers tends to forget about the clutch anyhow. They will try to push into gears or pull out of gears forgetting to step on the clutch. Then they get freaked out when they hear this loud screeching noise.. and I go, "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, my gears!!!!!! step on the clutch, step on the clutch!" Then they step on the gas instead, and you look over to check the RPM just to see it hit the redline...eeks! Thanks for bringing that horrible flashback back to mind again.. >>


Wow... i don't think i'm anywhere close to being that bad. I can drive pretty well, it's the subtle little things like I menitoned above that are really easy in an automatic, but you have to like think through it all with a manual

 

[Zenmervolt]

<< So hypothetically speaking, how many of you with stick shifts let a complete newbie learn with your car ? I think the primary reason people would say hell no would be because of the wear on the clutch (nevermind the possibility of banging up the car). Will the clutch wear a great deal if you're just starting out ? >>

I second the person who said that the clutch is a lot more durable than most people think it is. I wouldn't let a learner drive my 914 though, mainly because it would screw them up. The Porsche 901 transmission is not renouned for being precise. Very easy to get 5th instead of 3rd and 4th instead of second. And I don't even want to talk about how many people choose reverse instead of first when starting out. I can just picture it, "Yeah, 1st is sort of down and to the left, but 3rd is also kinda down and to the left...".

R 2 4
+ + +
1 3 5

ZV

 

[kt]

<< Wow... i don't think i'm anywhere close to being that bad. I can drive pretty well, it's the subtle little things like I menitoned above that are really easy in an automatic, but you have to like think through it all with a manual >>


It's worst if you drive a German manual car, more things to remember.. they have to be unique with their gear arrangement. Although, I have to admit their arrangement is a lot more idiot proof. To get into reverse, you need to push down and follow the same path as the 1st gear. Makes parallel parking a tad bit faster

 

[Chewy]

I've been driving stick for about 2 months now... are you supposed to step on the clutch when you break? I do, but not sure if it's wear and tear (except when you break to a full stop, in which case you need to use clutch or else it stalls)...

 

[Jzero]

<<
R 2 4
+ + +
1 3 5 >>


Leave it to "German engineering" to put the transmission in backwards.
Exotic, my ass. Stupid is more like it

My one friend's BMW 2002 had the reverse to the left of 1. Except unlike more modern cars instead of having to lift a flange or push down to go through first, you pulled to the left for 1 and harder to the left for R. He said it was the most annoying feature.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Yes. Engage the clutch whenever coming to a stop or else you'll stall. If you're driving at 70mph on the interstate and need to tap the breaks, you don't have to engage the clutch unless you slow down to the point where you need to be in a lower gear.

 

[Scootin159]

<< I've been driving stick for about 2 months now... are you supposed to step on the clutch when you break? I do, but not sure if it's wear and tear (except when you break to a full stop, in which case you need to use clutch or else it stalls)... >>



It's just a good habit to get into. If your engine RPM is above idle, you don't need to push in the clutch (in fact not pushing it in is better for the brakes, as the engine will assist in slowing down the car), but if you're still a noobie at it, just push it in always and you'll be fine. I would say at about 2 months you're ready to try the downshifting meathod I said. Just let off the gas & watch the car slow down. When the engine gets close to idle, downshift & do it again. With enough practice (and enough room to stop), you should be able to SMOOTHLY slow down to about 5mph without ever touching the brake. You'll still need to use the brake though in practicality as you never have that much room to stop.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Does anyone know if double-clutching is good or bad for a transmission?

 

[Scootin159]

<< Does anyone know if double-clutching is good or bad for a transmission? >>



It won't hurt it, but it's not needed with modern transmissions



<< My one friend's BMW 2002 had the reverse to the left of 1. Except unlike more modern cars instead of having to lift a flange or push down to go through first, you pulled to the left for 1 and harder to the left for R. He said it was the most annoying feature. >>



My 1988 Pontiac Lemans (remarked Daewoo Lanos) had that same transmission (well I doubt it's the same tranny, just shifted like you stated). It was VERY annoying at first....had to always let out on the clutch SLOWLY to make sure I was actually in the right gear, but with enough practice I got it.

 

[Zenmervolt]

<<

<<
R 2 4
+ + +
1 3 5 >>


Leave it to "German engineering" to put the transmission in backwards.
Exotic, my ass. Stupid is more like it >>

Actually, it's because on racetracks 1st gear is almost never used and the arrangement Porsche used sped up the 2-3 upshift and 3-2 downshift in slow corners. It's like how having the ignition key on the left was a advantage because the driver at Le Mans (drivers start by running to their cars, then starting them) could start the car with his left hand while engaging first gear with his right hand.

ZV <-- Storehouse of useless Porsche info.

EDIT: Double clutching is still beneficial to a transmission. Even though modern synchronisers make double clutching unnecessary, double clutching will prolong the life of the synchronisers because they will not be working as hard.

 

[CraigRT]

It's funny how when you get used to driving a standard, how when people say it's hard, you just kinda chuckle... it seems like the easiest thing on the planet to me.. it just comes like 2nd nature now.. driving the car without looking at the tach, shifting at certain rpms without looking at speed and such, always starting off at the exact same revs from a stoplight.. i love driving standard, it's alot of fun, but it's not difficult at all... so good.

the MOST important thing is clutch feel by far... you get used to maneuvering slowly in parking lots and such, it's really easy once you get used to the clutch's sweetspot.. you could also try creeping the car in 1st gear without any gas.. can't be on an incline though.. it will idle forward just like an automatic car would.. i use the no gas idle alot when i am sitting at a light

whoa, what a useless bunch of gibber jabber... heh

 

[Scootin159]

<< Actually, it's because on racetracks 1st gear is almost never used and the arrangement Porsche used sped up the 2-3 upshift and 3-2 downshift in slow corners. It's like how having the ignition key on the left was a advantage because the driver at Le Mans (drivers start by running to their cars, then starting them) could start the car with his left hand while engaging first gear with his right hand.

ZV <-- Storehouse of useless Porsche info. >>



Thanks, I always wondered why they did that. Do all VW's have that same shift pattern as well, or just Porsche's?

 

[Jzero]

<<

<< Actually, it's because on racetracks 1st gear is almost never used and the arrangement Porsche used sped up the 2-3 upshift and 3-2 downshift in slow corners. It's like how having the ignition key on the left was a advantage because the driver at Le Mans (drivers start by running to their cars, then starting them) could start the car with his left hand while engaging first gear with his right hand.

ZV <-- Storehouse of useless Porsche info. >>



Thanks, I always wondered why they did that. Do all VW's have that same shift pattern as well, or just Porsche's? >>



Yeh that's actually very interesting....

 

[GTaudiophile]

<< Actually, it's because on racetracks 1st gear is almost never used and the arrangement Porsche used sped up the 2-3 upshift and 3-2 downshift in slow corners. It's like how having the ignition key on the left was a advantage because the driver at Le Mans (drivers start by running to their cars, then starting them) could start the car with his left hand while engaging first gear with his right hand. >>



Makes sense! Got to give a hand to German logic!

 

[Zenmervolt]

<< Thanks, I always wondered why they did that. Do all VW's have that same shift pattern as well, or just Porsche's? >>

The only VW I can think of off the top of my head with that arrangement would be only half a VW; the VW-Porsche 914. Other than that I think that VW's used 4 speeds, and even the Porsche 4 speed has the standard layout. After the 356's though, Porsche and VW really didn't share much in terms of parts bin. Notable exception being the 914 and the 912 (both of which used VW based engines tweaked slightly by Porsche). The 924 started life as a VW, but VW lost interest and Porsche grabbed it to replace the 914 as the low-end Porsche.

Porsche 4 speed:

R 1 3
+ + +
--2 4

ZV

 

[Spooner]

very interesting indeed

 

[notfred]

<<

<< Going slow, try letting it just idle along in first. >>



what do you mean by this? how do you idle in first without stalling out? >>



Msot cars will stall if you do that. My car won't if you let the clutch out slow enogh, and I've been in an LT1 camaro that won't, but you're average car with less than 300ft/lbs of torque stalls if you try that.

 

[Thegonagle]

<<

<<

<< Going slow, try letting it just idle along in first. >>



what do you mean by this? how do you idle in first without stalling out? >>



Msot cars will stall if you do that. My car won't if you let the clutch out slow enogh, and I've been in an LT1 camaro that won't, but you're average car with less than 300ft/lbs of torque stalls if you try that. >>

You're wrong. I haven't had a single car yet that I couldn't do that in. In most modern cars, the idle speed is adjusted automatically to compensate, but as Zenmervolt pointed out, you don't even need EFI to make it possible, just a steady left foot. I could do it in my 86 Nova, my 85 Civic, and my 86 Tercel. I mention those three because they were carbureted, and the Nova and the Tercel didn?t even have tachs. Maybe I?m just good. I do have a couple hundred thousand miles experience by now.

 

[Evadman]

I learned to drive a stick on the way home from the dealer with my suzuki sidekick. Stalled out twice both times on hills. It took me about a month to get used to it, then I do not believe I stalled it out again unless I was off road. It is currently sitting in my gagare waiting for a new clutch. To get it fixed was $1800 but the clutch was less than 200, so I just need to find the time.

The only thing I hated about a stick shift was you cold not eat and drive unless you were on the freeway or a long road with no traffic. Also the no cupholders sucked too.

 

[Kadarin]

LOL@this thread.. takes me back to when I first learned.

The best part about all this is that you might not know that you can drive a stick without using the clutch. I had to do it twice with my '83 Mustang.. (clutch cable snapped). If you're shifting up into the next gear, just let the rpms drop until the gear speed matches engine speed, and it'll slip right in. If you need to downshift, blip the gas pedal to bring the rpms up, and you can feel with the shifter for when it's ok to shift into lower gear. If I had to pull up to a light, I'd coast in neutral, then shut the motor off when at the light. Put the car in first gear, and use the starter motor to get it moving, while gently giving it some gas. None of this works if you have some kind of electronic safety interlock, however.

 

[Gujski]

my first car was a VW superbeetle, with an auto stick transmission. No clutch, but you just let off the gas to shift.

it had

1 3
L 2 R

i miss that car!