Learning a new (non-computer) language

[Schadenfroh]

Greetings,

One of my long term goals would be to supplement my scientific background (in computer science) with good business sense / education. As such, I think that international business would be a good emphasis due to globalization. I would like to learn another language to help facilitate that desired skill set.

I have heard that learning a new language gets more difficult as one ages, so I suppose that I should start soon (at least in my spare time). I am 22 years old, so I might have crossed that line already. Currently, I only know one language (the one I am typing in).

I am strongly considering Mandarin, mainly due to the close economic ties between the US and China (both the mainland and Taiwan).

A few questions:
1. When one understands a new language fairly well, does the language run via emulation on one's brain when one hears it? For example (Spanish), if one hears "pollo" does one translate that into "chicken" and then an image of a chicken appears in one's mind or is "pollo" permanently associated with the animal on an equal recognition level as if one had heard chicken instead?

2. My university only offers Latin, French, Spanish, and Arabic classes. Since I do not have access to a Mandarin class, I assume software is the best route? If so, is Fluenz Mandarin or Rosetta Stone a better approach for someone my age (or possibly another software package)? I have heard that Rosetta Stone teaches via pictures / association and Fluenz Mandarin teaches by using English as a foundation with a tutor recorded on the disks. I assume that Fluenz Mandarin would create the potentially undesirable "emulation" issue? I would likely need to speak and write it, but I assume speaking it would be the first step.

3. Is Mandarin a good choice for someone in the technology sector or should I learn something else? I know it would be a great undertaking due to the vast differences in the languages.

Thanks

 

[Belldo]

I know a few people that used rosetta stone and really liked the program they learned the languages fairly quickly

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

First of all, I have to say that if you haven't learned a 2nd language already, it's probably going to be very hard to learn now. I learned Spanish in middle school/high school and I didn't just learn the language - I learned how to learn a language. I can speak Spanish practically fluently (vocabulary of a 10 year old, though), and it's made it much easier to make word associations on my learning Mandarin (currently taking it in college). As far as my understanding of Spanish goes, I do have to emulate through English in my brain. I know the language well enough that I can translate what I want to say in a split second and understand what others are saying quickly as well, but there are drawbacks from this. When asked a question, I usually take a good 2-3 seconds to respond because I have to translate the question into English, think of my response, then translate that into Spanish.

After the first month of learning Mandarin, it isn't too bad. I'm generally good at learning languages, though, so maybe that's just me. I can associate the sounds with meanings easily, but remembering the characters can be difficult. I don't know how it would be different learning through software, though.

 

[MrDudeMan]

When you truly become fluent, you can think in the other language. When I was first learning French, the light clicked one day and I just started thinking my thoughts in French instead of English in very limited situations. It took quite a while for me to be able to do that with any regularity because I had to learn the specifics of the language, but it is a pretty incredible feeling when you first realize you just did it. It's one of those few things where I can remember exactly where I was and exactly what I was doing when it dawned on me that the words that came out of my mouth were French but I was simply trying to convey an idea which normally would have happened in English.

IMO, the best and only way to really, truly learn a language is to immerse yourself in it for a while. When I decided I wanted to learn French, I started doing some of the computer related exercises to become more familiar with it, and then I took two weeks off of work and went to an 8 hour per day French language school in Montreal. I wasn't allowed to speak English and I stuck to it the best I could. I saved myself some time and money by teaching myself the basics of the language ahead of time, but the real learning happened because I was hearing it constantly, every day for two weeks. I obviously wasn't even close to fluent after that, but it really laid the groundwork for later. I took some classes in college after that and then hired a private tutor. I still have a long way to go but my best advice is to immerse yourself.

If you are only exposed for a few hours a week, it will take you quite a while to pick it up. Software will help teach you basics and later it will help refresh your memory about some of the technicalities of the language, but it won't teach it to you completely. Part of the difficulty is being able to understand different people as most people will vary how they say a lot of words. Learning which sets of words people slur together to speak faster (we do this constantly, but you might not realize it) is also somewhat difficult. On top of that, think about how much slang we use. Other languages do this as well, maybe not always as much as English but they do. Rarely do you hear someone ask where to throw their 'refuse' if you catch my drift.

 

[aloser]

I can't say I know enough to be fluent, but the little bit of German for me has resulted in the words being intertwined; for your "chicken/pollo" example, the word Flughafenbahn results in images of a train running to the airport. When conversing (well, listening), the sentences "just make sense" much the way our English sentences do - you don't really have to think about what the English words mean. Then again, that's just me; YMMV slightly depending on how your individual brain works. 🙂

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
1. When one understands a new language fairly well, does the language run via emulation on one's brain when one hears it? For example (Spanish), if one hears "pollo" does one translate that into "chicken" and then an image of a chicken appears in one's mind or is "pollo" permanently associated with the animal on an equal recognition level as if one had heard chicken instead?

While I have been learning Hindi, I don't picture the word. I get the same abstract sense of the word as I would in english. In fact, I sometimes forget I'm back in the US and have a tendency to use hindi when I shouldn't.

I don't think Mandarin is a good choice for technology. If you want it for technology, then go with Japanese (electronics) or Hindi (programming / network engineering). You could also learn Hebrew (encryption). 😉

 

[z0mb13]

Just FYI, IMO Mandarin is probably one of the hardest language to learn. It simply has no alphabet, so for each word, you have to memorize how to read/pronounce the word, and how to write the word.
Granted some mandarin characters have tonal hints on how to pronounce it, but even so you have to memorize them as well
Even a lot of Chinese people forget how to write some of the complex characters, especially people that are used of typing them using pinyin via computers
I have been living here in China for a year and a half. I can converse daily topics quite easily, but I estimate my level to be less than a grade 1 local chinese student.

 

[lyssword]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Greetings,

One of my long term goals would be to supplement my scientific background (in computer science) with good business sense / education. As such, I think that international business would be a good emphasis due to globalization. I would like to learn another language to help facilitate that desired skill set.

I have heard that learning a new language gets more difficult as one ages, so I suppose that I should start soon (at least in my spare time). I am 22 years old, so I might have crossed that line already. Currently, I only know one language (the one I am typing in).

I am strongly considering Mandarin, mainly due to the close economic ties between the US and China (both the mainland and Taiwan).

A few questions:
1. When one understands a new language fairly well, does the language run via emulation on one's brain when one hears it? For example (Spanish), if one hears "pollo" does one translate that into "chicken" and then an image of a chicken appears in one's mind or is "pollo" permanently associated with the animal on an equal recognition level as if one had heard chicken instead?

2. My university only offers Latin, French, Spanish, and Arabic classes. Since I do not have access to a Mandarin class, I assume software is the best route? If so, is Fluenz Mandarin or Rosetta Stone a better approach for someone my age (or possibly another software package)? I have heard that Rosetta Stone teaches via pictures / association and Fluenz Mandarin teaches by using English as a foundation with a tutor recorded on the disks. I assume that Fluenz Mandarin would create the potentially undesirable "emulation" issue? I would likely need to speak and write it, but I assume speaking it would be the first step.

3. Is Mandarin a good choice for someone in the technology sector or should I learn something else? I know it would be a great undertaking due to the vast differences in the languages.

Thanks

As a true? bilingual,

1. When you learn a new language REALLY well, and don't use another, you will think in a new language. Your thinking patterns might be similar, but you will think in that language if you don't really use your original language that much.

As far of "emulation" you are talking about, images/ideas you will bring up when thinking of a word, you will need to associate words with objects/etc. If there are more memories associated in another language then you will refer to it in another language and then Emulate in that case.

Switching between 2 languages will be fairly easy, it's like riding a bike, you will have the skill to ride it unless you get really out of shape (or break your legs or something) 😀

 

[Schadenfroh]

As far as my understanding of Spanish goes, I do have to emulate through English in my brain.

This is exactly what I did in my Spanish class in high school. It felt... wrong to me. I do not recall much from it, save a few simple phrases, basic mechanics of the language's grammar, and the alphabet / pronunciation differences between English.

 

[LS21]

somewhere just before the intermediate fluency level you can begin to "think" in that language. if you start into a conversation, you can set your mind in a certain mode so that it feels natural without needing to consciously translate everything in your head. true for me between my native language and english, the language i learned in high school, and the one i learned in college. you most definitely need practical conversation practice, though - "book learning" wont do it

 

[quikah]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
I don't think Mandarin is a good choice for technology. If you want it for technology, then go with Japanese (electronics) or Hindi (programming / network engineering). You could also learn Hebrew (encryption). 😉

For tech Hindi would be useless IMO. Anyone you need to talk to in India knows English. Japanese wouldn't be a bad choice. No idea why you would think Mandarin is a bad choice, India and China are the 2 major upcoming economic powers.

Originally posted by: z0mb13
Just FYI, IMO Mandarin is probably one of the hardest language to learn. It simply has no alphabet, so for each word, you have to memorize how to read/pronounce the word, and how to write the word.

That is why you learn using pinyin and don't worry too much about reading in the beginning. Spoken Manadrin is not bad if you can wrap your head around the tones. Writing is tough.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: quikah
For tech Hindi would be useless IMO. Anyone you need to talk to in India knows English.

Its not that simple though. I've found they tend to speak quite a bit of Hinglish - even though they will communicate with you in English, when they're relaying what you said to their team, its back to Hinglish. It would be better without the middleman.

Japanese wouldn't be a bad choice. No idea why you would think Mandarin is a bad choice, India and China are the 2 major upcoming economic powers.

I don't ever see China as being a big "tech" leader though. The manufacturing of advanced tech, maybe, but not the design of it.

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: quikah

Originally posted by: SagaLore
I don't think Mandarin is a good choice for technology. If you want it for technology, then go with Japanese (electronics) or Hindi (programming / network engineering). You could also learn Hebrew (encryption). 😉

For tech Hindi would be useless IMO. Anyone you need to talk to in India knows English. Japanese wouldn't be a bad choice. No idea why you would think Mandarin is a bad choice, India and China are the 2 major upcoming economic powers.

Originally posted by: z0mb13
Just FYI, IMO Mandarin is probably one of the hardest language to learn. It simply has no alphabet, so for each word, you have to memorize how to read/pronounce the word, and how to write the word.

That is why you learn using pinyin and don't worry too much about reading in the beginning. Spoken Manadrin is not bad if you can wrap your head around the tones. Writing is tough.

Yeah but then you will not know how to read/write in mandarin. IMO reading is a necessity to master a language.

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: quikah
For tech Hindi would be useless IMO. Anyone you need to talk to in India knows English.

Its not that simple though. I've found they tend to speak quite a bit of Hinglish - even though they will communicate with you in English, when they're relaying what you said to their team, its back to Hinglish. It would be better without the middleman.

Japanese wouldn't be a bad choice. No idea why you would think Mandarin is a bad choice, India and China are the 2 major upcoming economic powers.

I don't ever see China as being a big "tech" leader though. The manufacturing of advanced tech, maybe, but not the design of it.

Thats what they said about Japan in the 80s...

 

[Schadenfroh]

Thanks guys for the insight. I found out that my university has Rosetta Stone version 2 available for use. They have Rosetta's Hindi, Japanese, Korean, Mandarin, and more (over a dozen languages) software installed. I am leaning towards Mandarin due to the sheer amount of people speaking it and it is "perceived" (at least by this ignorant American) that most Japanese, Koreans, and Indians in the technology industry (that I would need to talk to) already speak (some) English thanks to their close political and economic ties to the US and Britain (not to mention past US and/or British occupation).

Its not that simple though. I've found they tend to speak quite a bit of Hinglish - even though they will communicate with you in English, when they're relaying what you said to their team, its back to Hinglish. It would be better without the middleman.

Interesting input, I have only known a few Indians (professors and graduate students, most arrived relatively recently) and all of them speak English very well. I always assumed that English is fairly well known throughout the industrialised areas of India ("thanks" to past British occupation). But, I imagine that the ones coming over here made sure to master it before arriving and that it might be an entirely different story in India.

I went through the first section of the first lesson in Mandarin and the tones are difficult (not to mention pronouncing some of the words). Any idea how good the voice recognition in Rosetta Stone is at measuring the accuracy of the words that I am speaking? I do not want to say die when I intend to say four!:Q

 

[teb468]

Japanese is actually pretty fun to learn, though some of the words sound funny to college seniors and below.