learning a language in my free time... anyway to validate or get credited for that?

[Mothergoose729]

Hello community. I am a struggling computer science student, currently in my sophomore year. I am starting to get far enough along that I am realizing a computer science degree is focused more so on math, algorithms, number theory ect and less on real world applicable knowledge for how to write real programs. I don't plan to drop out or anything, but I am starting to think about picking up some php or mysql books and teaching myself. I see a ton of job openings on the internet for these kind of positions and it would be nice to have that option when I graduate, ,or maybe even before I get my degree. I was wondering if there is some kind of test I could take or some kind of accreditation process I could go through to prove I have a certain degree of competency with a language. In particular, something an employer might be looking for on an application, in place of or in addition to a degree. If anyone can give me some insight into that I would be grateful. Also, suggestions on which languages to pick up would be nice too .

 

[Net]

focusing on your degree is the most important thing right now.

on the side you can do research with a professor. see what projects and languages your professors are using and hop on one that your interested in. if you can't get paid then volunteering to do it for free will increase your chances of being accepted.

i would put priority on: 1. degree, 2. research, 3. part-time programming job (with your university or somewhere else that isn't too demanding)

 

[Pia]

What Net said. But by all means, code stuff on your free time and make sure to have fun with it.

There's always a job for a good programmer, and you can't become good unless you actually like what you are doing. Whatever you do, don't pick a thing to learn based on what you see on (some) job ads right now.

Web coding / scripting jobs where you would be using PHP are almost certainly not optimal for someone with a degree in comp sci. Even if you happened to be interested in web services, I would recommend some other, more multi-purpose language.

 

[Leros]

I disagree with the above posters. You can certainly graduate with a CS degree and not be very good at programming. I see it all the time.

I assume your purpose in getting a CS degree is so that you can get a programming job once you graduate. Unfortunately, a CS program teaches you to be a computer scientist, not a programmer. The sort of work you see CS students produce for class work is mostly rushed hack jobs meant to illustrate basic CS principles. Not the same skills you would use in the real world.

I would highly suggest you do a summer internship where you can work with professional programmers so that you can build up some real world programming skills.

I wouldn't worry about building up a big of list of technologies that you know. Its not important. Future employers don't care (at least the good ones don't, there are some lousy interviewers who ask things like specific language questions... you probably don't want to work for these people). There are so many technologies out there and its pretty easy to pick things up as you go.

What you need to prove to an interviewer is that you have critical thinking skills (aka, a logical mind) and that you're capable of learning. That being said, having messed around with various technologies shows that you're capable of learning. It also shows that you have a real interest in the field, which is helpful.

It sounds like you're interested in creating dynamic websites. That's what I do professionally. From what I've seen in industry, Java Servlets and MySQL is a good solid place to start. It might not be the latest hippest thing out there, but its used by a lot of the big players (Google, etc). It makes for a good base and will teach you a lot of the principle skills that apply to other technologies.

 

[Pia]

Future employers don't care (at least the good ones don't, there are some lousy interviewers who ask things like specific language questions... you probably don't want to work for these people).

There are so many technologies out there and its pretty easy to pick things up as you go.

Someone who has good programming routine in general would certainly adapt to e.g. generic Java or C# coding pretty fast. But to build that routine, a coder necessarily has to be pretty good with at least one language, just as a musician has to be good with at least one instrument. So in an interviewer's shoes, I would want to see some language knowledge at least in the language the interviewee claims to know best.

But in general you can't pick up everything as you go. Why would anyone want to hire a person whose only "fluent" language is PHP to work on a C++ codebase analyzer written in Haskell?

 

[Leros]

Someone who has good programming routine in general would certainly adapt to e.g. generic Java or C# coding pretty fast. But to build that routine, a coder necessarily has to be pretty good with at least one language, just as a musician has to be good with at least one instrument. So in an interviewer's shoes, I would want to see some language knowledge at least in the language the interviewee claims to know best.

But in general you can't pick up everything as you go. Why would anyone want to hire a person whose only "fluent" language is PHP to work on a C++ codebase analyzer written in Haskell?

I would never consider hiring somebody who only knows one language. Learning your second language is harder than learning your first and shows that you are capable of doing it.

Now, if this person's last job was working primarily with a PHP codebase, I would first be asking what languages they know. I might teach them some basic Haskell (or a simplified made-up functional language) and ask them to solve a simple problem. This shows that they'll be able to learn Haskell and ramp up.

I'd also be asking basic problem solving questions, with some relevance to the sorts of problems they'll be solving with the codebase analyzer. I'd be content with an answer in any language, including pseudocode.

Look at this way. You don't want to pass over a great candidate just because they're going to need a few months to ramp up in a couple of areas. After that ramp up, they might be best candidate, even if they lacked a lot of base knowledge when they started.

 

[Mothergoose729]

It sounds like employers in IT fields don't expect you to know the programming language they plan to hire your for? Am I understanding that correctly?

One of my classmates mentioned off hand about how when he goes in for an interview, he brings a big binder full of samples of his work; mostly programming projects from the classes he has taken. I thought that was a really good idea.

What I really want to do is find some way to prove on paper that I know a language or not. I am going to learn c and c++, but if I can get a microsoft cert saying I know c#, or an oracle thing saying I now java, or something similar for some other language that would be really helpful right? Thoughts?

By the way, thanks for all the advice so far

 

[Markbnj]

It sounds like employers in IT fields don't expect you to know the programming language they plan to hire your for? Am I understanding that correctly?

One of my classmates mentioned off hand about how when he goes in for an interview, he brings a big binder full of samples of his work; mostly programming projects from the classes he has taken. I thought that was a really good idea.

What I really want to do is find some way to prove on paper that I know a language or not. I am going to learn c and c++, but if I can get a microsoft cert saying I know c#, or an oracle thing saying I now java, or something similar for some other language that would be really helpful right? Thoughts?

By the way, thanks for all the advice so far

There isn't a simple formula to follow. Any outfit that is interviewing you is trying to make sure you're a good fit and can do the job they're hiring for. Some will focus on critical thinking and problem solving, as has been mentioned. Most will want you to demonstrate some level of proficiency in the platform. It's true that a good developer can learn a new language or platform, but by the same token the hiring company is usually trying to get someone in and up to speed as soon as possible. If they're hiring a .Net programmer they're just not going to look as favorably on a good LAMP programmer, even if the person is very smart and a fast learner. Most hiring processes don't include that amount of foresight.

As to how you demonstrate proficiency, there is really only one way: talk to the interviewer, answer his or her questions, solve any problems assigned, and leave them convinced you know what you're talking about.

 

[sourceninja]

I never even look at what languages a person knows when it comes to programming. Knowing a language is a bonus, but what I want is a strong logical thinker who understands how to write code and maintain our standards.

I ask general questions about the development process, patterns, etc and get a good feel for what a person really knows. What work have they done? Do they know what MVC, OO, etc is? Do they have code examples? Do they have any previous work experience? Do they contribute to open source projects? How did they handle the pseudocode question I threw at them? All of that is more important than if they know java.

I'd rather hire a good programmer who has never seen the languages we work in over a shitty programmer who has a decade of relevant experience and can recite the language in question like he invented it.

 

[beginner99]

First of you need to focus on your studies. if you fail them, well ....

If you have time I suggest:

- program for an existing Open-Source project (preferably a small one so that your contributions have some impact, in the positive sense )

- create your own Open-Source Project
-> obviously harder because you need a good idea and then need to come up with the design by yourself. And in the end, it's hard to find something that hasn't been done 10 times and better you could ever do it yourself.
Even if the product is excellent there is no guarantee you can actually make it popular.

 

[Mothergoose729]

When you fill out an application for a job or internship in computer science, how do you indicate your knoweldge or expertise with a particular thing? Degree focus and relevant work experience are obvious. Could I say "knowledgeable in x" and leave it vague, and then prove competency in an interview?

I am still looking into various certifications for languages. A piece of paper saying I know something is obviously best. These courses cost a lot of money to take, and its money I don't have. I need a cheap way of going about this .

 

[humanure]

I don't think it would be too important to spend money and effort on getting certifications. When I graduated with a CS degree, I had several interviews and no one ever really asked about specific languages that I knew let alone had certs. Mostly general OO stuff, design patterns, talk about some projects you worked on, classes you had challenges in, how did you resolve it? Focus on your classwork and getting good grades, that will help the most.

 

[Leros]

When you fill out an application for a job or internship in computer science, how do you indicate your knoweldge or expertise with a particular thing? Degree focus and relevant work experience are obvious. Could I say "knowledgeable in x" and leave it vague, and then prove competency in an interview?

I am still looking into various certifications for languages. A piece of paper saying I know something is obviously best. These courses cost a lot of money to take, and its money I don't have. I need a cheap way of going about this .

I have a section near the end of my resume that says lists skills

Skills: Java, C++, C#, ...., MySQL , Mongo, ...

 

[jaydeee]

Sure whatever is the programming language you're learning, you'll find the test center for that which will give you certificate.

 

[atreader]

You will be doing programming to do some of your school assignments. Check your course list and see what language (C++ or Java) they use for those assignments.

The 'real world' use will depend upon when you land a job and the type of project you get. So if your project involves creating search algorithms then your algorithms part will be more useful than programming skills.

Beside a programming language (C++, Java, C#,..), you should also learn at least one scripting language (python, perl). Plus simple (MySql) database.

The actual learning happens when you are developing an actual application or a bigger school assignment.

 

[esun]

Could I say "knowledgeable in x" and leave it vague, and then prove competency in an interview?

Yes. I have absolutely no certifications that say I know any particular programming languages. I have a BS and an MS but those don't say anything about specific programming languages (and they were mostly in EE, too, not CS).

However, in the "Skills" section of my resume I list the languages I know (some from school, some I learned on my own). If the interviewer asks me to code in those languages, I'd better be able to do it.

Most likely, if you're applying for a position that requires experience with Java (for example), the first round phone interviewer will ask you what your experience with Java is. If you say "well I picked up a 'Learn Java in 24 Hours' book and read it" you are probably not going to be invited to a second round interview. If you say "I first learned Java during my undergraduate degree and have been programming in it for the past 5 years for enterprise web applications" then you'll have a good shot.

 

[Modelworks]

I would be more interested in hiring someone that has programs they can show me they wrote than someone with a degree with nothing to show for it but the paperwork showing they went to school. If you can put up a website with clear examples of your skill that is proof enough for most employers that you know what you are doing. Often people that take classes,while they may get lab exercises, don't have work beyond that to show what they can do.


As has been said, people graduate all the time without the ability to do the things they went to school to learn. I have worked with people that don't have a degree in anything and they were more knowledgeable than the people with the degree. Learning is a funny thing, there are those who learn formulas and facts, and then there are those who want to know why and how things work and would try to learn even if they couldn't go to school, those are the people that stand out. A very good example of this is Jeri Ellsworth . Jeri has given talks at MIT and has done some of the most amazing engineering work and guess what, she never finished college for engineering and holds no degrees.
http://blip.tv/bios/making-demos-with-fpgas-828200 -- talks about how she got her start
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeri_Ellsworth

When she and her partner later had a disagreement, Ellsworth opened a separate business in competition. This new business became a chain of four stores, "Computers Made Easy", selling computer equipment in towns in Oregon.[2] She ran that chain until selling it in 2000, at which point she moved to Walla Walla, Washington and attended Walla Walla College, studying circuit design for about a year. She dropped out due to a "cultural mismatch"; Ellsworth said that questioning professors' answers was frowned upon.

Jeri is the type of engineer that excels because she doesn't just take what is told to her as fact, she wants to learn the material and really know about it.
How good is she at what she does ?

On December 3, 2010 she released information on how to build a TSA "naked" scanner using repurposed satellite antenna parts.
Ellsworth was a keynote speaker at the Embedded Systems Conference on May 5, 2011.

Youtube page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/jeriellsworth