League of Denial

[techs]

Has anyone read the book or seen the documentary?

I just read the book. It starts out with a lot of human interest, especially about Mike Webster, former HOF center for the Steelers.

I can't imagine the video can cover even a fraction of the medical stuff.

The bottom line I got out of it is the overwhelming evidence that sub-concussion hits to the head are cumulative and a large number of people will develop CTE. No one knows how many ex NFL players, or for that matter players of other sports, will wind up with CTE but it looks like the numbers are going to be very high.

Even high school players who never had a concussion and who died early showed signs of it.

The book points out that even if 10 percent of mothers decide to keep their kids out of football then football as we know it might end.

Roger Goodell apparently knows the score and is pretty desperate to do everything he can to keep this from happening. So the people who say he is trying to "pussify" football are, imo, wrong. He is trying to save it. It's like smoking. As the evidence mounts and more people become aware of it there is going to be a tipping point where people realize the dangers and begin to make personal decisions based on that.

 

[crashtestdummy]

Saw the documentary. There wasn't a lot in there that I didn't previously know, but seeing it all together was jarring.

I have to admit watching football, knowing what they are doing to themselves, is really hard. I don't think I'll let my kids play football, at least not until they're 16 (or whenever I feel they're old enough to make that decision as an adult).

The only way that I see the sport becoming "safe" in terms of chronic head injuries would be to get rid of the helmets and pads, so it's harder for players to treat themselves like missiles. Even there, though, there are still plenty of concussions (though fewer sub-concussive hits) in Rugby.

 

[rudeguy]

Saw the documentary. There wasn't a lot in there that I didn't previously know, but seeing it all together was jarring.

I have to admit watching football, knowing what they are doing to themselves, is really hard. I don't think I'll let my kids play football, at least not until they're 16 (or whenever I feel they're old enough to make that decision as an adult).

The only way that I see the sport becoming "safe" in terms of chronic head injuries would be to get rid of the helmets and pads, so it's harder for players to treat themselves like missiles. Even there, though, there are still plenty of concussions (though fewer sub-concussive hits) in Rugby.

Yep. At least get rid of facemasks. But getting rid of pads altogether would be a much better idea. Sure you would have more less serious injuries, but players now are using their helmets as deadly weapons.

 

[techs]

Without going too much into the technical, apparently their is a substance called "tau" that appears in all Alzheimers sufferers along with another substance and that is what is used clinically to determine Alzheimers during an autopsy. On the other hand if you have tau and without the other substance they are pretty sure that you are the victim of CTE.

So far the evidence is you never find tau without a history of sub concussive events or Alzheimers.

So, as they do more autopsies they are likely to come up with definitive proof that football and other sports cause CTE.

Once that happens they will start gathering statistics to see how many ex football players get tau and how many develop it severely enough to have debilitating mental problems. Once they come up with number that's when the shit will hit the "fan"(pun intended)

 

[lupi]

Who's playing thursday night?

 

[techs]

Who's playing thursday night?

So, tell me, did you ever play football?

 

[surfsatwerk]

Who's playing thursday night?

Who's on first.

 

[smackababy]

I haven't read it or seen the movie. I imagine there is some good stuff about collision sports like football being bad for your health, but I don't really care. Professional football players know the risks involved in doing what they do and are compensated much above their value as entertainment.

If they were so concerned about safety, they would play QB: next season they are getting flags instead of being tackled.

 

[techs]

I haven't read it or seen the movie. I imagine there is some good stuff about collision sports like football being bad for your health, but I don't really care. Professional football players know the risks involved in doing what they do and are compensated much above their value as entertainment.

If they were so concerned about safety, they would play QB: next season they are getting flags instead of being tackled.

They don't know the risks. The NFL did everything it could to not only "prove" there was no risk but that young children also were not at risk. Based not just on no evidence but basically saying that the contrary evidence proved their point.

And you know what? It doesn't matter what you think about pro players knowing the risks. It's what mom's believe the risks are to their sons. Without kids playing Pop Warner, without High School and College football programs football will fade away.

This country doesn't let corporations hire people to, say, work with a poisonous substance that they know will disable a substantial portion of them. Mostly because they can't afford the insurance but also because Americans won't let them. When enough people feel football is basically too dangerous they will pass laws that drastically change the game and might just kill it.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Professional football players know the risks involved in doing what they do and are compensated much above their value as entertainment.

Uhhh, no. The NFL did everything in their power to cover up the evidence so that the players wouldn't understand the risk.

The NFL evidence could have and most assuredly SHOULD HAVE been made public so that younger players WHO ARE NOT COMPENSATED, yet face the same dangers, could have made informed decisions.

 

[Imported]

I haven't watched it yet, but I doubt it'll change my perception and love for football.

 

[smackababy]

They don't know the risks. The NFL did everything it could to not only "prove" there was no risk but that young children also were not at risk. Based not just on no evidence but basically saying that the contrary evidence proved their point.

And you know what? It doesn't matter what you think about pro players knowing the risks. It's what mom's believe the risks are to their sons. Without kids playing Pop Warner, without High School and College football programs football will fade away.

This country doesn't let corporations hire people to, say, work with a poisonous substance that they know will disable a substantial portion of them. Mostly because they can't afford the insurance but also because Americans won't let them. When enough people feel football is basically too dangerous they will pass laws that drastically change the game and might just kill it.

So, what you're saying is football players have some misunderstanding of how a helmet to helmet is harmful? I just don't buy that. I played football in high school and everyone knew there is a risk and a big hit can cause damage. I highly doubt an NFL player thinks differently, nor do they care.

Also, if you think football (high school and college) is going to go away, you underestimate the amount money that pumps into those schools.

 

[techs]

So, what you're saying is football players have some misunderstanding of how a helmet to helmet is harmful? I just don't buy that. I played football in high school and everyone knew there is a risk and a big hit can cause damage. I highly doubt an NFL player thinks differently, nor do they care.

Also, if you think football (high school and college) is going to go away, you underestimate the amount money that pumps into those schools.

Ok, so you didn't read the book or see the documentary based on what you wrote.

It's not helmet to helmet, or concussion level hits. Its the repetitive hits of normal contact. Something that almost all players assume to be safe. Even the swatting of the helmet by lineman seems to cause it.

The big question is what percentage of football players will end up with cte even never suffering a concussion? If it turns out to be one or two percent, how many moms will let their kid play football? If, say, it turns out to 5 percent of high school football players, how much insurance will schools need to have to continue football?

 

[rudeguy]

Ok, so you didn't read the book or see the documentary based on what you wrote.

It's not helmet to helmet, or concussion level hits. Its the repetitive hits of normal contact. Something that almost all players assume to be safe. Even the swatting of the helmet by lineman seems to cause it.

The big question is what percentage of football players will end up with cte even never suffering a concussion? If it turns out to be one or two percent, how many moms will let their kid play football? If, say, it turns out to 5 percent of high school football players, how much insurance will schools need to have to continue football?

None

Just like when I played, you sign a waiver. And just like when I got injured, your insurance covers any on-field injuries. I don't think most colleges even cover on-field injuries.

 

[smackababy]

Ok, so you didn't read the book or see the documentary based on what you wrote.

I haven't read it or seen the movie.

Hard to see it any differently when I stated that.

It's not helmet to helmet, or concussion level hits. Its the repetitive hits of normal contact. Something that almost all players assume to be safe. Even the swatting of the helmet by lineman seems to cause it.

The big question is what percentage of football players will end up with cte even never suffering a concussion? If it turns out to be one or two percent, how many moms will let their kid play football? If, say, it turns out to 5 percent of high school football players, how much insurance will schools need to have to continue football?

Any helmet contact can cause injury? Who seriously believe that taking a hit to the head does not cause even a small amount of damage? Plus, there is no insurance costs the school has to take. What competent insurance lawyer won't say "prove that the specific hits sustained 10+ years ago at X high school is what caused a degradation in brain function or injury that is being reported at this point?" It is the same reason people aren't suing tobacco companies because they developed cancer 30 years later.

Unless, and I haven't read the data, they can timestamp (or at least approximate with reasonable accuracy) the time at which each hit occurred that caused damage, this is a non issue for schools. You sign a waiver where you acknowledge this sport can cause brain injury and you call it a day.

And think about this: after high school what percentage of players continue to play football? Very few. And then how many continue past that into the NFL / CFL / Arena leagues? Even fewer, including practice squads.

 

[Retro Rob]

I haven't watched it yet, but I doubt it'll change my perception and love for football.

Probably won't change my joy in watching it, either. I just wouldn't let my kids play it.

Yes, the NFL hid concussion information, but I agree with Smack...I don't need in depth medical information to know how potentially dangerous Football can be... it doesn't take an Einstein to see how many players are battered, concussed, left broken and brittle during/after playing football.

To suggest that a player necessarily needs that medical information to make an "informed decision" is being sort of dishonest.

I don't "need" the sordid details of what life in prison is like to know I don't want to/need to be there.

 

[preslove]

Any idiot who signs their kid up for pee wee football is committing child abuse.

Middleschool, highschool and college football should not exist. "Scholar athletes" shouldn't participate in sports that cause brain damage.

 

[Retro Rob]

Any idiot who signs their kid up for pee wee football is committing child abuse.

Middleschool, highschool and college football should not exist. "Scholar athletes" shouldn't participate in sports that cause brain damage.

I'd say they need to evaluate what's in the best interests of the child instead of how big a house they want when he goes pro.

Some parents are looking for a "come up".

 

[smackababy]

I'd say they need to evaluate what's in the best interests of the child instead of how big a house they want when he goes pro.

Some parents are looking for a "come up".

Except it takes a lot of money and coaching for an athlete to make it to the pros in any sport. The rags to riches myth is just that: a myth. Very few athletes come from backgrounds where they were poor and living in the ghetto.

A family "looking for a come up" better have not only great genes, but the money to spend on coaching and summer leagues for their kid.

 

[Retro Rob]

Except it takes a lot of money and coaching for an athlete to make it to the pros in any sport. The rags to riches myth is just that: a myth. Very few athletes come from backgrounds where they were poor and living in the ghetto.

A family "looking for a come up" better have not only great genes, but the money to spend on coaching and summer leagues for their kid.

Yep agreed. But parents have been known to work 4 jobs to make that happen so they can "get out the ghetto".

And conversely, to add to my point I made to techs, players need that information to make an informed decision, but you're basically saying that players can blame the NFL because they made uninformed decisions, and can get compensated for that.

I have a hard time completely understanding that, though I do hold the NFL largely accountable.

 

[manly]

The book points out that even if 10 percent of mothers decide to keep their kids out of football then football as we know it might end.

Roger Goodell apparently knows the score and is pretty desperate to do everything he can to keep this from happening. So the people who say he is trying to "pussify" football are, imo, wrong. He is trying to save it. It's like smoking. As the evidence mounts and more people become aware of it there is going to be a tipping point where people realize the dangers and begin to make personal decisions based on that.

Quote may have been taken out of context. According to the Frontline documentary, an NFL official (may have been a doctor) was telling this to the Pennsylvania doctor who first discovered CTE in Mike Webster and subsequently his teammate. The PA doctor insinuated it was a scare tactic (this part of the documentary was somewhat weak, that the league was essentially ruining doctors careers via FUD).

I also disagree that 10 percent of mothers pulling their kids out of Pop Warner is going to ruin pro football.

Goodell is protecting his golden goose. Frontline ended strongly by concluding that the NFL is still denying a linkage between sub-concussive head contact and CTE. Or at least insisting that there isn't enough science out there yet to explain why some players get CTE, while others haven't yet shown symptoms. While there are medically valid questions to ask and research (cause/effect and frequency questions), it doesn't adequately explain the NFL's glacial 20 year study period during which they frequently and publicly denied any wrongdoing.

 

[Ns1]

nm

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Latest study:

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/9902116/report-details-concussion-risks-high-school-athletes

Anyone that thinks the settlement the NFL made with past players was the end of the story is a complete idiot. This will take a long time to play out, but it's going to eventually decimate amateur football.

 

[HendrixFan]

Has anyone read the book or seen the documentary?

I haven't read the book, but I have seen the documentary and have read quite a bit on the subject for the last 4-5 years or so as the evidence against the NFL has been mounting. You can find a few threads on here were I try to explain to those less informed that the NFL as we know it is ending. It is just a matter of time. The liability the league has is too high.

The subconcussive hits are a big sticking point, especially to those who aren't fully informed on the issue. At the end of the day you can't sign away liability as an employer when you put workers in hazardous conditions. The settlement that was signed recently is just a drop in the bucket because the NFL is still in full denial mode and fighting to keep any evidence to the contrary hidden. Once the full scope of the impact on the players is out the cost of maintaining the league will go through the roof and the game will have to radically change to survive.

We are seeing just the tip of the iceburg on the changes to the NFL right now, and plenty of fans are complaining. As the game softens further, it will lose popularity. It is in a lose-lose situation.

 

[Vdubchaos]

Any idiot who signs their kid up for pee wee football is committing child abuse.

Middleschool, highschool and college football should not exist. "Scholar athletes" shouldn't participate in sports that cause brain damage.

In America, if it makes money, its ok and considered "right".

Regardless if it's at the expense of your kids.....