Leading Scientists Still Reject God

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Amplifier
Arguing about god is a good way to work up your debate skills, but let's get serious, this debate has been going on for centuries now

So? I actually think recent developments in the last centuries have added a lot to the debate, so it seems fair to keep discussing it.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Stunt
and see many instances in everyday life where scientific theorys do not apply.

Like what?

Statistically our bodies should not function (complex molecules absorbed by membranes), molecules should not form (molecules form to lower energy, but reaction mechanisms must form complex unstable molecules before lowering energy). There's lots of things science cannot describe or explain, something is governing how these things interact. This energy/spirit/god has created many great things and they all work together seemlessly almost magically.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: Tab
Thats not really a religion at all... It's just some form of personal beilef....

I'd say your a closest "athiest"

Welcome to the world of Agnostics! Religion all has to start somewhere, and if I make my own beliefs so what. I think there are a few critical things that set my views apart from Athiest views.

You're not Agnositic, you beileve in some kind of power/god/spirt. I'd say an Agnostic is someone who beileves that the exsistance of God cannot be proven or doesn't beileve in the typical religions.

 

[Stunt]

I will talk to you about this, but if you start to rip apart my beliefs for no reason other than to smear me like you do with Christian members, I will ignore your posts. Keep it civil Infohawk.

 

[Amplifier]

I didn't say it wasn't fair to discuss it! Go have fun . I pick and choose my arguments... like stupid taxes :|

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Stunt
and see many instances in everyday life where scientific theorys do not apply.

Like what?

Statistically our bodies should not function (complex molecules absorbed by membranes), molecules should not form (molecules form to lower energy, but reaction mechanisms must form complex unstable molecules before lowering energy). There's lots of things science cannot describe or explain, something is governing how these things interact. This energy/spirit/god has created many great things and they all work together seemlessly almost magically.

Excuse me? I am going to pretend I didn't read the first few sentances. So, for the sake of the agruement. Let's assume that there are some things science can't explain.

So, how do you propose to explain these things?

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: Tab
Thats not really a religion at all... It's just some form of personal beilef....

I'd say your a closest "athiest"

Welcome to the world of Agnostics! Religion all has to start somewhere, and if I make my own beliefs so what. I think there are a few critical things that set my views apart from Athiest views.

You're not Agnositic, you beileve in some kind of power/god/spirt. I'd say an Agnostic is someone who beileves that the exsistance of God cannot be proven or doesn't beileve in the typical religions.

So what am I then Tab?...you seem to know the classifications...

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Statistically our bodies should not function (complex molecules absorbed by membranes), molecules should not form (molecules form to lower energy, but reaction mechanisms must form complex unstable molecules before lowering energy). There's lots of things science cannot describe or explain, something is governing how these things interact. This energy/spirit/god has created many great things and they all work together seemlessly almost magically.

This suggests the theories or wrong or we don't understand what is going on yet. Science is a process, so it's possible that it can explain these things, but just not yet.

I live my life almost the same as every other Atheist, except I feel there is greater meaning to our existence.

What do you define as "greater meaning?" And greater than what? What meaning do you think atheists give to existence?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: Tab
Thats not really a religion at all... It's just some form of personal beilef....

I'd say your a closest "athiest"

Welcome to the world of Agnostics! Religion all has to start somewhere, and if I make my own beliefs so what. I think there are a few critical things that set my views apart from Athiest views.

You're not Agnositic, you beileve in some kind of power/god/spirt. I'd say an Agnostic is someone who beileves that the exsistance of God cannot be proven or doesn't beileve in the typical religions.

So what am I then Tab?...you seem to know the classifications...

I honestly couldn't say, your just unique.

If I happen to find a defintion or something that fits you. I'll let you know, maybe you're a deist? Who knows...

 

[Infohawk]

Anyone thinking about agnosticism or atheism should think about ignosticism too:

ignostics consider the question of God?s existence to be meaningless because it has no verifiable consequences and from this he concludes that people can and should live without reference to such a supernatural being.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Stunt
I will talk to you about this, but if you start to rip apart my beliefs for no reason other than to smear me like you do with Christian members, I will ignore your posts. Keep it civil Infohawk.

There aren't any "Christian" members on this forum, maybe some fake ones....

 

[Amplifier]

Is the debate whether a god exists or whether a certain religion is right?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Amplifier
Is the debate whether a god exists or whether a certain religion is right?

It's a mix.

 

[Amplifier]

I'll save you guys some trouble then, Christianity is definately not the correct answer

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Amplifier
I'll save you guys some trouble then, Christianity is definately not the correct answer

I'd say I would have to agree with you on that.

 

[NeenerNeener]

I'm with you on this one, Stunt. While we cannot prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, I actually have doubts of the infallability of science. It seems that many scientific views are just as based on faith as religious faith itself. Plus, I draw a distinction between scientific evidence and historical evidence. There's actually a truckload of historical evidence that a God does indeed exist. It's just that the scientific evidence seems to refute certain historical claims.

It is faith itself to me that is important. Both, the belief in a greater power than ourselves and a belief in the electron, for instance, seem to keep me going. Consider the spirituality behind quantum mechanics. The more you try to examine the behavior of the electron, the less predictable it seems to become. Until, scientists finally come to the conclusion that perhaps this particle exists in other dimensions than our own.

Light can be treated as both a particle and a wave. Sort of like the "rock" and the "spirit": the tangible and the intangible. Think of the bible versus you heard growing up, the analogies of "the rock", or even "the light".

These things strengthen my faith.

It seems silly to me to state that science has all the answers. The more we find out, the more we realize we don't know. We expand macroscopically until we reach the idea of the universe, then we have to stop. Our definition has confined us. We inspect microscopically until we reach subatomic particles, and have to rely on terms like "strange", and "charmed" to categorize them.

 

[Stunt]

This suggests the theories or wrong or we don't understand what is going on yet. Science is a process, so it's possible that it can explain these things, but just not yet.

I think these things are unexplainable...Scientific theory does a great job in our lives, it is very good at what it produces, I should know; I am a Mechanical Engineer. I have witnessed the power of the field. Now, one thing for you to recognize is that for every step science makes, it must modify theories to conform to the new data or information...it is only able to describe what is going on at present, not why things do what they do. Do you know why for example bodies are drawn to each other? (like us to the earth, earth to the sun) Science has proven bodies are attracted, but not why. Why are we not pushed away from the earth? Science just cannot prove these things other than 'its the way it is'.

What do you define as "greater meaning?" And greater than what? What meaning do you think atheists give to existence?

Personally i think life is too wonderful and beautiful for it to be an accident or a random occurance. There's lots of things science cannot describe or explain, something is governing how these things interact. This energy/spirit/god has created many great things and they all work together seemlessly almost magically. Also, I like to think there is something greater beyond our petty lives with governing morals and reason to be good. Some way to punish those who do bad during their lives; for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction...I feel this extends beyond our brief period of life.

Maybe I am an idealist to think this...oh well.

 

[NeenerNeener]

I actually asked an atheist friend of my where he gets his meaning, if not from a higher power. He answered with a question. "Why does there need to be meaning?" I can see where he's coming from, it's just not me. I believe he is basically a good person who cares about others. I don't think this is unique. Does anyone here?

 

[Stunt]

I think most humans are born instinctively knowing humane morals. But I think it is a combination of parental and government upbringing creating your friend's acknowledgement of rights and wrongs.

Edit. Welcome to P&N NeenerNeener

 

[NeenerNeener]

I hate the labeling. Can a follower of the teachings of Christ be a "Christian"? If so, I'm one. I just think what the dude said is worthwhile to know. I'm not as preoccupied as some with how he died. How he lived is important to me. I'm sure he wouldn't have excluded the gravity of the teachings of Muhammed or Buddha, or Taoism. I know he didn't exclude the gravity of Jewish teachings. I especially appreciate how he helped us change our view of God, from a wrathful one, to a forgiving one. It's almost as if to say, "Get on with your lives, and ignore the petty little differences." There is wisdom in that.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
I'm with you on this one, Stunt. While we cannot prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, I actually have doubts of the infallability of science. It seems that many scientific views are just as based on faith as religious faith itself. Plus, I draw a distinction between scientific evidence and historical evidence. There's actually a truckload of historical evidence that a God does indeed exist. It's just that the scientific evidence seems to refute certain historical claims.

It is faith itself to me that is important. Both, the belief in a greater power than ourselves and a belief in the electron, for instance, seem to keep me going. Consider the spirituality behind quantum mechanics. The more you try to examine the behavior of the electron, the less predictable it seems to become. Until, scientists finally come to the conclusion that perhaps this particle exists in other dimensions than our own.

Light can be treated as both a particle and a wave. Sort of like the "rock" and the "spirit": the tangible and the intangible. Think of the bible versus you heard growing up, the analogies of "the rock", or even "the light".

These things strengthen my faith.

It seems silly to me to state that science has all the answers. The more we find out, the more we realize we don't know. We expand macroscopically until we reach the idea of the universe, then we have to stop. Our definition has confined us. We inspect microscopically until we reach subatomic particles, and have to rely on terms like "strange", and "charmed" to categorize them.

No is claiming science is infalliable, if you think there is something wrong with the current way things are done. Please present your evidence.

There's a truckload of historical evidence...

So what? Just because there's a lot doesn't make it factual.

Scientific evidence DOES refute many of the claims of god's exsistance. At for sure of a typical "Christian" God.

Our defintion? Defintion of what?

 

[NeenerNeener]

Thanks for the welcome. I'm an engineer as well, though preoccupied with that I cannot see.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Stunt
I think these things are unexplainable...

Do you have any evidence for that? If you were living the 12th century, would you have just assumed all the things they didn't know then were unexplainable? Anyway, if these things aren't explainable, what conclusions does that lead you to? How does that distinguish you from an atheist?

Personally i think life is too wonderful and beautiful for it to be an accident or a random occurance.

I'm not sure atheists would describe life as being an accident or random occurrence.

This energy/spirit/god has created many great things and they all work together seemlessly almost magically.

Magic suggests supernatural. How do you know anything exists outside the natural world?

Also, I like to think there is something greater beyond our petty lives with governing morals and reason to be good.

Many atheists would agree with this, "something" is very vague.

Some way to punish those who do bad during their lives; for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction...I feel this extends beyond our brief period of life.

Do you have any evidence that this belief is true?

Maybe I am an idealist to think this...oh well.

What is especially ideal about your world?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Stunt

This suggests the theories or wrong or we don't understand what is going on yet. Science is a process, so it's possible that it can explain these things, but just not yet.

I think these things are unexplainable...Scientific theory does a great job in our lives, it is very good at what it produces, I should know; I am a Mechanical Engineer. I have witnessed the power of the field. Now, one thing for you to recognize is that for every step science makes, it must modify theories to conform to the new data or information...it is only able to describe what is going on at present, not why things do what they do. Do you know why for example bodies are drawn to each other? (like us to the earth, earth to the sun) Science has proven bodies are attracted, but not why. Why are we not pushed away from the earth? Science just cannot prove these things other than 'its the way it is'.

What do you define as "greater meaning?" And greater than what? What meaning do you think atheists give to existence?

Personally i think life is too wonderful and beautiful for it to be an accident or a random occurance. There's lots of things science cannot describe or explain, something is governing how these things interact. This energy/spirit/god has created many great things and they all work together seemlessly almost magically. Also, I like to think there is something greater beyond our petty lives with governing morals and reason to be good. Some way to punish those who do bad during their lives; for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction...I feel this extends beyond our brief period of life.

Maybe I am an idealist to think this...oh well.

You're avoid my previous question. If science can't explain certain things how do you propose we prove this then?

Well, you're right.

It's just the way it is.

I bet if you ask any chrisitian who is solid in there beilefs and ask who created god. The answer will be "He just exsists."

Ask me where the universe came from, I'll say "It just exsists".

Well, you can think that all you want. Are you denying there the possiblity that out of randomness we could have came to such beings as ourselves? What's this energy/spirt/god you talk about?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Stunt
I think these things are unexplainable...

Do you have any evidence for that? If you were living the 12th century, would you have just assumed all the things they didn't know then were unexplainable? Anyway, if these things aren't explainable, what conclusions does that lead you to? How does that distinguish you from an atheist?

Personally i think life is too wonderful and beautiful for it to be an accident or a random occurance.

I'm not sure atheists would describe life as being an accident or random occurrence.

This energy/spirit/god has created many great things and they all work together seemlessly almost magically.

Magic suggests supernatural. How do you know anything exists outside the natural world?

Also, I like to think there is something greater beyond our petty lives with governing morals and reason to be good.

Many atheists would agree with this, "something" is very vague.

Some way to punish those who do bad during their lives; for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction...I feel this extends beyond our brief period of life.

Do you have any evidence that this belief is true?

Maybe I am an idealist to think this...oh well.

What is especially ideal about your world?

I would describe our coming to exsistance as random. Our lives are essentially meaningless. The only reason I choose to live is because it stimulates me in positive way, once I lose that feeling I intend to kill myself.

I doubt that'll happen though.