LCD - When will native resolution become the past?

myrcgarage

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Feb 2, 2005
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I have been thinking about getting a new 19" LCD panel. However, I don't like about the native resolution thing. You have to set it to its native resolution, otherwise, the text looks horrible(I am very picky). I am used to 1600 x 1200. However, when my friends come over, they like to use 1280 x 1024. On my 19" CRT, I can just set it to 1280 x 1024 and everything looks as crisp as 1600 x 1200. However, on an LCD, it would look bad if it is not set to native.

I know it has to do with the no. of pixel on the screen. Anybody knows when the LCD technology will be developed to a point that no matter what resolution you set it to, it will look crisp and bright?

Thanks
myRCgarage
 

Auric

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
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Never. It's akin to asking when low-resolution video sources will look good on a high-resolution TV. Missing data simply cannot be compensated for when "blowing it up". Anyhoo, you have two options: either scale up to the maximum number of pixels (which you aren't keen on) or else don't use them all and instead enjoy a perfect but smaller image centered on the display. Another thing to be aware of is that because of the clarity of an LCD, lower resolutions are not as necessary as with a CRT to remain readable, plus the DPI and font sizes can always be adjusted, optionally per user. Make sure to get a DVI model allow disabling scaling via drivers.
 

myrcgarage

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Originally posted by: Auric
Never. It's akin to asking when low-resolution video sources will look good on a high-resolution TV. Missing data simply cannot be compensated for when "blowing it up". Anyhoo, you have two options: either scale up to the maximum number of pixels (which you aren't keen on) or else don't use them all and instead enjoy a perfect but smaller image centered on the display. Another thing to be aware of is that because of the clarity of an LCD, lower resolutions are not as necessary as with a CRT to remain readable, plus the DPI and font sizes can always be adjusted, optionally per user. Make sure to get a DVI model allow disabling scaling via drivers.

Actually, I would like a 19" LCD that can do 1600 x 1200. However, I haven't seen any so far. The problem is that my wife or my friends like lower resolution sometimes so that the text are bigger. However, they look like crap if I set them something other than native. Do you know if some other monitor/video technology will solve this problem in the near future(or already exists)?

Thanks
myRCgarage
 

SunSamurai

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Jan 16, 2005
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Originally posted by: myrcgarage
Originally posted by: Auric
Never. It's akin to asking when low-resolution video sources will look good on a high-resolution TV. Missing data simply cannot be compensated for when "blowing it up". Anyhoo, you have two options: either scale up to the maximum number of pixels (which you aren't keen on) or else don't use them all and instead enjoy a perfect but smaller image centered on the display. Another thing to be aware of is that because of the clarity of an LCD, lower resolutions are not as necessary as with a CRT to remain readable, plus the DPI and font sizes can always be adjusted, optionally per user. Make sure to get a DVI model allow disabling scaling via drivers.

Actually, I would like a 19" LCD that can do 1600 x 1200. However, I haven't seen any so far. The problem is that my wife or my friends like lower resolution sometimes so that the text are bigger. However, they look like crap if I set them something other than native. Do you know if some other monitor/video technology will solve this problem in the near future(or already exists)?

Thanks
myRCgarage


make the text bigger? Also, differant video cards will change how well a monitor interpolated its native resolution to other resolutions. 1600x1200 would be very nice, and even the worst video card could cut that down to 800x600 for those people that like candyland GUI
 

Fatalist

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Nov 25, 2001
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In Windows XP:

Control Panel - Display - Appearance tab - Font Size - Large or Extra Large
 

myrcgarage

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Feb 2, 2005
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but my disappointment toward LCD is that how come it is not as good as traditional CRT monitors in terms of the whole resolution area? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regarding the font size, yes, I could increase it. Thanks for the suggestion.
 

SunSamurai

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Jan 16, 2005
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Originally posted by: myrcgarage
but my disappointment toward LCD is that how come it is not as good as traditional CRT monitors in terms of the whole resolution area? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regarding the font size, yes, I could increase it. Thanks for the suggestion.

I dont even know what you mean by that. you can get LCDs that have screen resolutions well above what your CRT can display.

 

mooncancook

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May 28, 2003
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Never. It's akin to asking when low-resolution video sources will look good on a high-resolution TV

Never use the word "never". hmm.. err... i think i just did.

anyway, why not? i understand you can't display something above the max resolution of the monitor, but if a CRT can display nicely for all resolutions under its max resolution, why can't the LCD? Don't underestimate technology
 

SunSamurai

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CRTs do not display things like LCDs. A CRT can display many resolutions "nicely" becuase its "pixels" are not sharp to begin with and there are a lot more of them typically. An LCD has a set number of "pixels" and that is its native resolution. native resolution will never become a thing of the past, becuase in order for it to you would need infinitly small pixels in a finite area.
 

Operandi

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Oct 9, 1999
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There is no getting around the limitation but some LCD?s interpolate lower resolutions better then others. In the future they may be able to improve the technology to the point where it?s a non-issue.
 

BentValve

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Originally posted by: mooncancook
Never. It's akin to asking when low-resolution video sources will look good on a high-resolution TV

Never use the word "never". hmm.. err... i think i just did.

anyway, why not? i understand you can't display something above the max resolution of the monitor, but if a CRT can display nicely for all resolutions under its max resolution, why can't the LCD? Don't underestimate technology



Never means never in this case, Auric explained it already ..read his post again.
 

SunSamurai

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Originally posted by: Operandi
There is no getting around the limitation but some LCD?s interpolate lower resolutions better then others. In the future they may be able to improve the technology to the point where it?s a non-issue.


Its not just the LCD. Its the video card.
 

Tiamat

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Nov 25, 2003
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Its possible. I was using an IBM T221 at its native resolution of 3800 x 2400 and it looked great at 1900x1200. The point of this is that the pixels on this screen are very tiny. I believe that if you can have more than 10M pixels on any size screen less than 22", you will be able to use most resolutions without problems since its really tough to pick out the pixel interpolations when the pixels themselves are so very tiny.

Im not trying to go against the advice of others in this thread, but if you had the money and technology, you could do it as long as each pixel was at or below the size your eye can detect as a discrete object.
 

myrcgarage

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Feb 2, 2005
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Originally posted by: Tiamat
Its possible. I was using an IBM T221 at its native resolution of 3800 x 2400 and it looked great at 1900x1200. The point of this is that the pixels on this screen are very tiny. I believe that if you can have more than 10M pixels on any size screen less than 22", you will be able to use most resolutions without problems since its really tough to pick out the pixel interpolations when the pixels themselves are so very tiny.

Im not trying to go against the advice of others in this thread, but if you had the money and technology, you could do it as long as each pixel was at or below the size your eye can detect as a discrete object.


3800/2 = 1900 and 2400/2 is 1200. That's why 1900x1200 still looks good on the LCD. If the native is 1600x1200, then 800x600 would be sharp too.
 

zephyrprime

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Feb 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: Tiamat
Im not trying to go against the advice of others in this thread, but if you had the money and technology, you could do it as long as each pixel was at or below the size your eye can detect as a discrete object.
Yep. The native resolution problem can not truly be solved but eventually screens will be of such high DPI that it will be tough to see the native DPI problem. However, I expect that OS's will be made to work better at various resolutions before then.

 

Matthias99

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Oct 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: myrcgarage
Originally posted by: Burtie21
isn't OLED coming out soon.....don't know much about it....but maybe thats an idea?


Very interesting...
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=1489&pq-locale=en_US

OLEDs will still have the 'native resolution' "problem". This is inherent in all fixed-pixel displays (including next-gen tech like OLED and SED). But, as noted, at some point it becomes a non-issue because the DPI will be comparable to a CRT.

OP -- did you try using Cleartype when using scaling? Apparently it helps a *lot* with text clarity, by antialiasing the fonts.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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but if a CRT can display nicely for all resolutions under its max resolution, why can't the LCD?
Because a CRT's pixels aren't fixed in size and grow/shrink as required by the resolution. An LCD is just basically a bunch of lights that turn on and off but can never change size.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
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I guess I'm still not clear on this lower resolution interpolation thing either. Why isn't it possible to make an LCD with the same pixel layout as a CRT? It's not like a CRT has an infinite number of holes in the aperature grille or shadow mask.

CRTs do not display things like LCDs. A CRT can display many resolutions "nicely" becuase its "pixels" are not sharp to begin with and there are a lot more of them typically.

So, solution then - lots more pixels (yes, expensive, but give the technology time, there's always ways), and maybe a diffraction grating?

Because a CRT's pixels aren't fixed in size and grow/shrink as required by the resolution. An LCD is just basically a bunch of lights that turn on and off but can never change size.

I don't get this either; I thought a pixel is fixed size no matter what, unless my idea of a screen pixel is incorrect. I was under the impression that a pixel is a group of three holes, with red, green, and blue phosphors.
 

corkyg

Elite Member | Peripherals
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OK - CRTs do not have "pixels" - they have scan lines, and resolutions are measured in terms of line pairs per millimeter. The reason CRTs can produce a variety of resolutions relates to being able to change the scanning process electronically. In lay terms, CRTs "paint" pictures while LCDs turn pixels on and off.

To understand LCDs fully, do a Google for thin film technology.
 

Matthias99

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Oct 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: Jeff7
I guess I'm still not clear on this lower resolution interpolation thing either. Why isn't it possible to make an LCD with the same pixel layout as a CRT? It's not like a CRT has an infinite number of holes in the aperature grille or shadow mask.

...

Because a CRT's pixels aren't fixed in size and grow/shrink as required by the resolution. An LCD is just basically a bunch of lights that turn on and off but can never change size.

...

I don't get this either; I thought a pixel is fixed size no matter what, unless my idea of a screen pixel is incorrect. I was under the impression that a pixel is a group of three holes, with red, green, and blue phosphors.

Yes, CRTs have a fixed number of screen phosphors -- but they way they 'interpolate' the pixels is very different from a fixed-pixel display (sort of a misleading name; better might be 'directly addressable' or something like that).

A CRT display is analog -- when you tell it to run, say, 800x600, it just scans the electron beam across the screen at a certain rate, changing the intensity so that it has 800 different values evenly spaced horizontally, and 600 distinct values evenly spaced vertically. The output of the electron beam is actually a continuous analog waveform. Each phosphor effectively takes a *slightly* blurry sample of the electron beam value at its location. What this means is that if you increase the resolution, the samples get more precise -- and because they're oh-so-slightly blurry analog samples of a continuous waveform, it always does a pretty good job of approximating it. There are no values of horizontal and vertical frequency for which it is noticeably better or worse.

LCD displays are 100% digital. They can *only* display images in one fixed resolution, and the electronics in the screen tell each pixel *exactly* what to display. So, if you feed the display a video signal that matches up exactly with the 'native' resolution (the actual output pixels), it can do a 1:1 mapping of input pixels to output pixels, and everything works great. In fact, you probably get a more 'accurate' picture than on a CRT, objectively speaking. The problem arises when you can no longer do a 1:1 mapping -- if the input resolution is higher or lower than the output. If it is lower, you have two choices -- you can either scale the input to match the output, or you can display it without scaling, only using some of the pixels of the display (this maintains sharpness, but gives a smaller overall image). If it is higher than the native resolution, obviously you have to scale it (or else you would only display part of the image).

The problems with scaling are mostly mathematical. Unless the output resolution is an exact multiple of the input resolution, you have to resample the image in some way. This means that at least some of the output pixels correspond to more than one input pixel. But because this is a digital system (often with a very limited 6-bit color resolution), this results in a slight blurriness, especially in areas of high contrast. With the analog samples of a CRT's phosphors, you have an effectively infinite range of possible color values, which produces smoother results (at least to our eyes). Also, a CRT's phosphors are generally more numerous and more tightly packed than an LCD's pixels, meaning at least some of the samples will be closer to the 'actual' locations of the pixel centers at any resolution. With a fixed-pixel display, some resolutions will result in situations where some pixels will be 'between' the display's actual pixels. Compounding this is the fact that there are multiple ways to *do* the scaling (various types of linear interpolation, gaussian sampling, etc.), some of which are better or worse than others (take a look at Photoshop and try using the different resize options to get an idea of what I'm talking about). The better ones tend to be quite computationally intensive, and can be hard to do in real time.

So, basically, if you made an LCD screen with a resolution comparable to the spacing of a CRT monitor's phosphors, you should get results comparable to a CRT. Increasing the color depth (up to and beyond 8 bits per pixel) would help as well, since the interpolation would be more accurate. And there may still be room for improvement in terms of how the scaling is actually done.
 

Tostada

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Originally posted by: Matthias99
A CRT display is analog -- when you tell it to run, say, 800x600, it just scans the electron beam across the screen at a certain rate, changing the intensity so that it has 800 different values evenly spaced horizontally, and 600 distinct values evenly spaced vertically. The output of the electron beam is actually a continuous analog waveform. Each phosphor effectively takes a *slightly* blurry sample of the electron beam value at its location. What this means is that if you increase the resolution, the samples get more precise -- and because they're oh-so-slightly blurry analog samples of a continuous waveform, it always does a pretty good job of approximating it. There are no values of horizontal and vertical frequency for which it is noticeably better or worse.

That's the reason things scale well on a CRT, but it's a little misleading. The signal is definitely analog, but I'm really not sure how relevant that is. The mask/grille are fixed.

Originally posted by: Matthias99
So, basically, if you made an LCD screen with a resolution comparable to the spacing of a CRT monitor's phosphors, you should get results comparable to a CRT. Increasing the color depth (up to and beyond 8 bits per pixel) would help as well, since the interpolation would be more accurate. And there may still be room for improvement in terms of how the scaling is actually done.

That's correct, except there is certainly potential to get much better results from an LCD with that kind of resolution because the LCD's electronics could determine exactly how interpolation takes place. With the CRT, you have your analog gun shooting all over the place. The LCD designers would have complete control and could use whatever sampling/sharpening techniques they wanted.

From reading the posts in this thread, it sounds almost like some people think CRTs have infinite resolution, which is of course ridiculous. There's a certain number of holes you can have in the mask/grille of a CRT, and this is in effect the "native resolution" of the CRT. The only difference is that the analog gun shoots all over the place and things blur together some.

For example, high-end aperture grille CRTs have a 0.24mm pitch at best (usually a little more than that, except for some discontinued Sonys), which is the horizontal distance between columns in the grille. Shadow mask screens may sound better depending on how they're measured, but it's usually more like a 0.27mm dot trio pitch.

NEC 22" Diamondtron = 20.0" viewable = 16.0"x12.0" screen
0.24mm grille pitch = 1700 columns

NEC 19" Diamondtron = 18.0" viewable = 14.4"x10.8" screen
0.24mm grille pitch = 1500 columns

NEC 17" Diamondtron = 16.0" viewable = 12.8"x9.6" screen
0.25mm grille pitch = 1300 columns

That's why 22" screens don't look so good when they're at 2048x1536. A good 19" CRT will look fine at 1600x1200, but you're essentially downsampling it to 1500x1125.

The bottom line is that a 1600x1200 LCD could do lower resolutions and look as good or better than a CRT if it did a good job of anti-aliasing it (this is of course ignoring the fact that CRTs still have better color).

Hopefully by the time 1600x1200 LCDs become cheap enough to be the standard Microsoft will make an OS that can actually scale things a little better than just selecting "large" or "small" font size and "large" or "small" icons.