LCD vs CRT black level

TitusTroy

Senior member
Dec 17, 2005
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my main question is will black levels of an lcd EVER reach top end CRT levels and why is it so difficult to achieve?...I thought H-IPS levels offered the best 8 bit color reproduction and if so why does it still suck in comparison to CRT's?

I still own a very high end Sony GDM-F520 21' CRT monitor which looks absolutely beautiful in terms of color quality...I've had it over 9 years and have been reluctant to give it up for an LCD for many reasons but some of them include the fact that LCD's do not offer black levels anywhere near that of a high end CRT...that along with the input lag and ghosting issues have kept me far away from LCD's...I'm a big time gamer and these factors are critical for me

I've researched tons of LCD's over the years and they all have fallen short but I recently started looking into the NEC LCD2490WUXi (H-IPS) abd it sounds really good...it still has most of the same drawbacks as all other LCD's but it sounds like the best option...should I just jump on this NEC LCD and accept it as being the best LCD on the market or should I wait for some new technology coming out soon which will drastically improve the black levels of an LCD?
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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No LCD will reach the black levels of a CRT due to always having a backlight on. LED LCDs should come much closer though.

That said, some of the better monitors now are getting pretty good. I've got a samsung 6-bit extended gamut display and it's not perfect, but it handles dark scenes pretty well, so much so that a room can be truly dark and you can still make out detail. Not even all CRTs or projectors I've seen do that.
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
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if space isn't a concern why even consider an LCD? I had a high end Gateway 24" LCD that I paid something like $650 for. I couldn't get rid of it fast enough, my desk is plenty big for my 22" CRT. LCD offers zero benefits for my needs. And has a ton of negatives. I understand for many, most even. LCD is right for them. But for what I need, LCD has a huge way to go before I'd even consider buying another. Even with better black levels on LED LCD's they still won't be able to touch my CRT overall.

*HUGS his CRT*
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
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I have both.
A trinitron 22" and a 22" LCD.
As said, LCD will never be as true to black as CRT. The backlight is just too hard to block and if you dim it then white output suffers.
Color is analog, it is how our eyes see the world, so CRT has that advantage from the start. LCD is digital and even the best ones cannot match the color transitions in the same way. I saw a studio doing film work the other day and they had flat panels on all the workstations, but on a table in the center they had a couple old crt monitors. I laughed when I saw it because I knew right away what they were for, to check the final output.

 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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If your CRT is still going strong, wait for OLEDs.

LED backlit LCDs are much better then traditional backlit, but they demand an extremely steep premium still and even then can't match up with a CRT. OLEDs should be able to actually best CRTs in contrast- blacks should be 'perfect', but that is in a theoretical sense until we see some mass produced screens over 11" prove otherwise.
 

Eureka

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
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If you don't see a reason to move to LCDs, don't. The big difference between LCDs and CRTs were that LCDs were brighter and thinner. However, if you have a good CRT, and don't really need the space and mind the energy difference, then stick with a CRT.

Don't fix something that's not broken.

Of course I didn't listen and bought a LCD a year ago while my CRT was going strong. Then, a week later, my CRT started to smoke (literally). So I just got ahead of the curve.
 

TitusTroy

Senior member
Dec 17, 2005
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Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
If your CRT is still going strong, wait for OLEDs.

LED backlit LCDs are much better then traditional backlit, but they demand an extremely steep premium still and even then can't match up with a CRT. OLEDs should be able to actually best CRTs in contrast- blacks should be 'perfect', but that is in a theoretical sense until we see some mass produced screens over 11" prove otherwise.

so even the best OLED screens are inferior to CRT's?...how long before OLED's flood the market at 19'-24' and at a reasonable price?

I've had my current GDM-F520 for 9 years now and while it is still going strong it has developed a small burn-in at the very top (only really noticable against an all white background)...so is it best to just pick up the best available LCD now since they will never reach CRT levels or purchase a refurbished high quality CRT instead?...the ONLY lcd I would even consider is the expensive NEC LCD2490WUXi ($1000)

 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
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No LCD can produce true blacks because all they do is block light. This is in contrast to CRT/OLED where the pixels actually turn off and don?t emit light.

And yes, OLED is superior to CRT but it?s currently limited to relatively tiny display sizes.
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
20,212
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There are a few LED backlit LCDs for somewhat cheap now (the dell G series 22" is about 200 dollars but its a TN matrix, the 24 is under $300). OLED someday will be a real solution but i figure thats 4-5 years from being reasonable. Reviews say they have fantastic black levels though. maybe not perfect color unforutnately.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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so even the best OLED screens are inferior to CRT's?...how long before OLED's flood the market at 19'-24' and at a reasonable price?

In terms of contrast OLEDs have regularly proven themselves to best even CRTs, but currently the only OLED we have on the market is 11" and its' color uniformity isn't up to top tier CRTs. Other OLEDs have exhibited flawless colors, but those have been prototype displays.

I've had my current GDM-F520 for 9 years now and while it is still going strong it has developed a small burn-in at the very top (only really noticable against an all white background)...so is it best to just pick up the best available LCD now since they will never reach CRT levels or purchase a refurbished high quality CRT instead?...the ONLY lcd I would even consider is the expensive NEC LCD2490WUXi ($1000)

Your call, but if your 520 is showing burn in it is probably out of focus and relatively flat on colors by this point also. Not knocking the display, just something that happens when they get old :)

When will larger sizes be relatively mainstream.... rolled the dice it came up 6 years.... rolled them again and it said 3...... meh, got 12 that time ;)

That particular NEC monitor has stellar colors for a LCD, but it isn't close to the top in black levels and it is very slow compared to the fastest displays. Not saying it is bad by any stretch, just when dealing with LCD we unfortunately have to make compromises :(
 

TitusTroy

Senior member
Dec 17, 2005
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Originally posted by: BenSkywalkerThat particular NEC monitor has stellar colors for a LCD, but it isn't close to the top in black levels and it is very slow compared to the fastest displays. Not saying it is bad by any stretch, just when dealing with LCD we unfortunately have to make compromises :(

which current LCD provides the best black quality?...I thought the NEC panels were the best of the best right now


Originally posted by: hans007There are a few LED backlit LCDs for somewhat cheap now (the dell G series 22" is about 200 dollars but its a TN matrix, the 24 is under $300)

what's the difference between OLED's and LED backlit LCD's?
 

mmnno

Senior member
Jan 24, 2008
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Originally posted by: TitusTroy
Originally posted by: BenSkywalkerThat particular NEC monitor has stellar colors for a LCD, but it isn't close to the top in black levels and it is very slow compared to the fastest displays. Not saying it is bad by any stretch, just when dealing with LCD we unfortunately have to make compromises :(

which current LCD provides the best black quality?...I thought the NEC panels were the best of the best right now


Originally posted by: hans007There are a few LED backlit LCDs for somewhat cheap now (the dell G series 22" is about 200 dollars but its a TN matrix, the 24 is under $300)

what's the difference between OLED's and LED backlit LCD's?

OLEDs actually replace the liquid crystal matrix, each pixel is three OLED cells that emit red, green and blue. No backlight necessary.

LED backlit LCDs substitute LEDs in some configuration for the fluorescent lights most LCDs use. The backlight (LED or CCFL) is always on, and the liquid crystal matrix blocks the light in each subpixel to produce the actual image. The LEDs may be arranged in a matrix behind the monitor like a fluorescent backlight, or attached to the edges of the monitor like an old watch. The advantage of edge-lit lit LCDs is their very thin form factor, not picture quality.

Contrary to popular perception (on this forum anyway), LED-backlit LCDs have shown no improvement whatsoever in black level. The technology that would let them improve PQ is called local dimming, but it has problems (the other side of the issue displayed in that image is black crush. Pick your poison.) The best implementation of LEDs would be a pixel-like array with as high a resolution as possible, and the higher the resolution the closer the display would come to OLED. But for the forseeable future such displays will be both expensive and crude.

Among all LCDs, PVAs have the best black quality (Dell 2709, HP 2275W) but they also have grayscale issues with viewing angles. NEC units that have an A-TW panel have the best balance, but there are only three of them and they are expensive.
 

evolucion8

Platinum Member
Jun 17, 2005
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I came from a CRT and a Dell E178FP TN panel and I'm quite happy with the black levels of my HP LP1965 which uses P-MVA panels from Auptronics. There's no bleeding around the corners of the screen, the gray is quite decent, sometimes in extreme angles the whites may look a bit yellowish, but is hard to notice, compared to the Dell E178FP horrible angles.
 

BenSkywalker

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Oct 9, 1999
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which current LCD provides the best black quality?...I thought the NEC panels were the best of the best right now

One of the PVA based panels. The NEC you are looking at is for photo editing, and it is extremely good there(after calibration at least- it comes with calibration hardware), it isn't great for contrast(not that it is horrible, but certainly not upper echelon).

Contrary to popular perception (on this forum anyway), LED-backlit LCDs have shown no improvement whatsoever in black level.

Depends on the display, the XBR8 goes toe to toe with Kuros- non LED LCDs can't come close.

The technology that would let them improve PQ is called local dimming, but it has problems

Philips displays are problems- Vizio has easily surpassed them in terms of quality(Vizio is still junk of course, just much better junk the Philips).

The best implementation of LEDs would be a pixel-like array

Triluminous works pretty well, next gen LED LCDs will be even better as they are getting much finer tuning for local dimming(technology was patented, but several companies are licensing it now).
 

yusux

Banned
Aug 17, 2008
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crt = old, heavy, myopia giver, too dimm, 4:3, most are not bigger than 19.5" viewable, geometry and screen evenness issues.

TIME TO UPGRADE ALREADY
 

mmnno

Senior member
Jan 24, 2008
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Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Depends on the display, the XBR8 goes toe to toe with Kuros- non LED LCDs can't come close.

Triluminous works pretty well, next gen LED LCDs will be even better as they are getting much finer tuning for local dimming(technology was patented, but several companies are licensing it now).

They are certainly improving among TVs, but the best are far from perfect and will run close to 3 grand. They really only compete with Kuros in a lit room.

Strictly speaking of computer monitors...LEDs bring power savings. That's about it. For now it's all white LED backlights, no local dimming, and you pay a premium. They are equal or worse than CCFL, unless you like razor thin edge-lit displays. RGB LED brings very welcome improvements, but those are all professional models that cost upwards of $1500 for a 24" monitor.

So if you're buying a TV and don't want a Kuro/plasma, the XBR8 is a fairly close second. If you're buying a computer monitor and don't want a 2490, a Dell G2410 is not really a good substitute.
 

TitusTroy

Senior member
Dec 17, 2005
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Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
One of the PVA based panels

do you have a particular LCD in mind or are you saying any PVA panel?...I always thought H-IPS panels offered better overall picture quality over PVA panels...I'm looking for the best gaming LCD monitor

 

evolucion8

Platinum Member
Jun 17, 2005
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In LCD currently, the LCD with the deepest black belongs to the MVA/PVA panels, the IPS blacks tends to look a little bit purplish and they have a quite slow response time and input lag. If you want to get the best LCD monitor, you have no option but to choose a TN based monitor, but if you are willing to sacrifice some response time for better image quality, get a P-MVA based LCD.

My LCD has a input lag of less than 25ms and is not noticeable nor affect my gameplay, and has a response time of 6ms which is good even though it pales in comparison with current TN panels which are from 2ms or below, is hard to notice.
 

StinkyPinky

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Jul 6, 2002
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I've seen oleds in action, and they're amazing. If they can just sort out the short life-span (and they will i'm sure) they will be the future without a doubt. Very lower power, colors are vivid as hell, black levels are just as good as CRT, and they take up next to no space. In fact, they're a bit too thin if you ask me.
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
22,759
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Originally posted by: yusux
crt = old, heavy, myopia giver, too dimm, 4:3, most are not bigger than 19.5" viewable, geometry and screen evenness issues.

TIME TO UPGRADE ALREADY

upgrade to what LCD? I don't consider crappy black, worse color reproduction, lag and exaggerated brightness to overcompensate for the poor colors to be an upgrade. Both LCD & CRT have their plus and minuses. I will gladly take the bad points you bought up over the bad points I find in an LCD.

I can live with too dim - I actually prefer it. LCD's at any viewable brightness still give me a headache, my CRT never does. If I turn the brightness on an LCD way down, it looks too dim. I cannot find a happy medium on any LCD. And yes, I owned a top of the line $650 24" gateway. I sold it after a month.

viewable 20" is fine with me. And I'm an old school dude who still doesn't like Widescreen for anything except Television

geometry - good point, but you have to have some trade offs as nothing gives you everything, not now any ways.

Screen evenness - maybe an issue, I don't think I notice it as much as I notice any LCD I've used being ran at a non native resolution.

again, trade off both ways. I will get OLED only if I can get a 4:3 screen, which is doubtful as I bet all will be 16:10. And not spend $2k on it. For the right price I might settle for a 16:10 OLED.

 

uclaLabrat

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Aug 2, 2007
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Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
I've seen oleds in action, and they're amazing. If they can just sort out the short life-span (and they will i'm sure) they will be the future without a doubt. Very lower power, colors are vivid as hell, black levels are just as good as CRT, and they take up next to no space. In fact, they're a bit too thin if you ask me.

What, you don't want a 40" TV that's as thick as 3 credit cards? :-D
 

evolucion8

Platinum Member
Jun 17, 2005
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Those tests are interesting, besides the very slight tone difference with the purple and the gray background with green letters which looked slighly different near the edges, everything looked fine.