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LCD Buyer's Guide
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Well I hear a lot about the eye seeing only 60 FPS, but that would be 16.67 ms, and we all know we can tell the difference between a 16 ms LCD and a 6 ms one (assuming accurate ratings). I know I could see the difference between a true 5 ms LCD and a CRT, still. It's no secret that even the 20WMGX2 looks blurry in games compared to a perfectly-smooth CRT.
Ok, I just went and placed my order with Newegg for the Viewsonic 930B. Hopefully they ship tomorrow and I'll receive it on Friday. As my first LCD monitor ever, what should I know about the setup? I've read here that it requires initial adjustments to get the proper colors and brightness, is it intuitive? Also, what should I set my video card refresh rate at? Currently with my CRT at 1024x768, I have it set to 85 hz. Any newbie pointers you could give me would be appreciated. It will be running off a ATI Radeon 9800 Pro which does have a DVI output so I assume it's a no-brainer I use the DVI output.
0x0BADF00D
Junior Member
xt,
Looks like I may have found the cause of "oh, but my laptop has nicer text than the 20WGX2 - same resolution, but 3 inches smaller... must be the higher PPI". Well, I've been experimenting with different color schemes for my x-terminal in linux. I am working on the assumption that for least eye strain, the monitor should match the brightness of its surrounds. So, brighter color schemes during the day (eg. black on light yellow), darker schemes in the evening (aiming for something like washed out white on black... ie. like the "desert" color scheme in VIM).
Well, I discovered that when the screen is one solid uniform color (terminal full-sized, 100 brightness also helps), I can see shimmer and general "noise". I found it to be particularly noticeable with the color RGB=(38,38,38), intensity set to 15%. Another thing about this color is that I managed to find a bright red sub-pixel. It's incredibly small, and I cannot even see it, even if I look for it, unless I display this color. I used to think that bright pixels would be bigger than that. Because during my Dell 2007WFP panel lottery, the 2 bright red pixels stood out on a white background. Thinking back, I guess they may not have been single pixels - clusters more like!
I have my laptop connected to the monitor via VGA, and a Mac Mini via DVI. Incidentally, I had a hell of a time getting the Mac Mini to work with the monitor via DVI. Mac Mini output via DVI-VGA converter was incredibly dark and dull. DVI output was unstable (but not with the Dell). The picture simply broke up into snow after a while. The more rapid the changes on the screen, say quickly moving a window around, the quicker it would break up. I solved this problem with SwitchResX - a Mac shareware utility that lets you lower the DVI interface frequencies. Apparently many Minis have problems interfacing with some large sceen monitors.
The Mini picture is rock-stable. I tried using the same full-screen color, and I cannot see any noise whatsoever. So it must be the VGA. BTW, I remember noticing this noise before, when booting into Windows. The standard WinXP blue background would shimmer very noticeably. I put it down to Advanced DV Mode or Movie mode or something. In actuality, Movie and Photo modes just make the noise more obvious.
So, I wonder, what it could be. The VGA cable is screwed on tightly on the monitor, and it's pretty tight on the notebook (but not screwed in for lack of screws on the connector). Perhaps, the cable? Or is VGA supposed to be so lame? BTW, my latest scrutiny *may* have revealed that there's some image persistance going on as well. Though it's not major, and I hope it doesn't get any worse.
BTW, I am typing this on a mac, and I can see that the fonts in the reply window are much sharper than on the notebook's VGA output. Previously I thought text was about the same on the notebook VGA out and the mac DVI. I think it's just OS X weird fuzzy fonts that are the equalizer.
P.S.
If it is my notebook's VGA that's at fault, I kinda feel bad about dumping on Dell for its fuzziness. The NEC is still a way better monitor though. Most definitely better than the PVA version of the 2007.
Looks like I may have found the cause of "oh, but my laptop has nicer text than the 20WGX2 - same resolution, but 3 inches smaller... must be the higher PPI". Well, I've been experimenting with different color schemes for my x-terminal in linux. I am working on the assumption that for least eye strain, the monitor should match the brightness of its surrounds. So, brighter color schemes during the day (eg. black on light yellow), darker schemes in the evening (aiming for something like washed out white on black... ie. like the "desert" color scheme in VIM).
Well, I discovered that when the screen is one solid uniform color (terminal full-sized, 100 brightness also helps), I can see shimmer and general "noise". I found it to be particularly noticeable with the color RGB=(38,38,38), intensity set to 15%. Another thing about this color is that I managed to find a bright red sub-pixel. It's incredibly small, and I cannot even see it, even if I look for it, unless I display this color. I used to think that bright pixels would be bigger than that. Because during my Dell 2007WFP panel lottery, the 2 bright red pixels stood out on a white background. Thinking back, I guess they may not have been single pixels - clusters more like!
I have my laptop connected to the monitor via VGA, and a Mac Mini via DVI. Incidentally, I had a hell of a time getting the Mac Mini to work with the monitor via DVI. Mac Mini output via DVI-VGA converter was incredibly dark and dull. DVI output was unstable (but not with the Dell). The picture simply broke up into snow after a while. The more rapid the changes on the screen, say quickly moving a window around, the quicker it would break up. I solved this problem with SwitchResX - a Mac shareware utility that lets you lower the DVI interface frequencies. Apparently many Minis have problems interfacing with some large sceen monitors.
The Mini picture is rock-stable. I tried using the same full-screen color, and I cannot see any noise whatsoever. So it must be the VGA. BTW, I remember noticing this noise before, when booting into Windows. The standard WinXP blue background would shimmer very noticeably. I put it down to Advanced DV Mode or Movie mode or something. In actuality, Movie and Photo modes just make the noise more obvious.
So, I wonder, what it could be. The VGA cable is screwed on tightly on the monitor, and it's pretty tight on the notebook (but not screwed in for lack of screws on the connector). Perhaps, the cable? Or is VGA supposed to be so lame? BTW, my latest scrutiny *may* have revealed that there's some image persistance going on as well. Though it's not major, and I hope it doesn't get any worse.
BTW, I am typing this on a mac, and I can see that the fonts in the reply window are much sharper than on the notebook's VGA output. Previously I thought text was about the same on the notebook VGA out and the mac DVI. I think it's just OS X weird fuzzy fonts that are the equalizer.
P.S.
If it is my notebook's VGA that's at fault, I kinda feel bad about dumping on Dell for its fuzziness. The NEC is still a way better monitor though. Most definitely better than the PVA version of the 2007.
I've been looking for a wide screen 20' LCD. Searching Newegg, I found the ViewEra V201D-B for $290 - $40 rebate + S&H. The manufacturer's site states that it's a "Premium MVA" which implies that it's a AUO panel. The specs: 1000:1, 178°/178° suggest it might be a AUO M201EW01 V3 panel. This is the new version of AUO M201EW01 V0 panel used in the Viewsonic VX2025WM (which is currently $340). I'm a little scared of the no-name brand ViewEra, however it is a low cost monitor that might have a better panel from AUO than the Viewsonic VX2025WM.
Has anyone bought this monitor lately and can verify it is a P-MVA panel, provide any insights about ViewEra's monitor construction quality, and anything else about the monitor?
Has anyone bought this monitor lately and can verify it is a P-MVA panel, provide any insights about ViewEra's monitor construction quality, and anything else about the monitor?
BadMrFrosty
Member
Hi, I am trying to figure out why you list a 19" monitor as being the best gaming monitor?
are the larger ones no good? i'm looking for a 22-24" monitor for gaming which has really good brightness and is adjustable, anyone have any pointers?
thanks,
Andrew
are the larger ones no good? i'm looking for a 22-24" monitor for gaming which has really good brightness and is adjustable, anyone have any pointers?
thanks,
Andrew
I just use the gray-on-black scheme in gnome-terminal myself without any issues during the day or night. I can't say I've used it that often lately, though.
The first thing that came to mind when you said you saw noise in a color was dithering or FRC. I know my ViewSonic VP930b has this effect (as it's not truly 8-bit), even in DVI. I was thinking, oh no, they used a dithering algorithm to speed it up and ditched what was so great about this LCD, but thankfully you said it didn't occur on DVI later. *phew* It is hard to notice, but I carefully screened this monitor for the effect and didn't notice a single instance of it. Do you notice the dead subpixel under DVI mode in this color?
Probably just VGA itself. VGA is never perfect, and since the panel itself is technically an analog device, all the imperfections probably just get sent right to it. It's not like there's something that converts analog to digital (as if to amplify and 'posterize', 'round', or 'reconstruct' the signal to the next digital equivalent) before it goes to the panel, at least in my knowledge.
Enable the subpixel hinting in Linux and you'll love the font reproduction. Here's a screenshot of how this message is reproduced with LCD hinting enabled. I can't stand how Windows renders fonts. It really is painful staring at aliased, razor sharp fonts on a high-contrast display. ClearType just looks too blurry.
I know of no LCD that displays non-native resolutions in a manner that I would consider acceptable. Of course, what I believe is acceptable in this sense is based on CRT monitors, which display all supported resolutions flawlessly.
Anyway: having used both and had them both hooked up at the same time (before I returned the second 971P unit I tried), I can say the VP930b displays non-native resolutions with more clarity. The 971P changes resolutions faster than the VP930b, but the blur on non-native resolutions on the 971P was more pronounced.
That doesn't seem like a bad deal at all, especially with the "No Dead Pixel Guarantee". I say jump on it. It couldn't be worse than a TN.
Well, that's very interesting. I just noticed the VX2025WM is back in stock. I wonder what the deal is, because it was supposedly discontinued not too long ago. I'm going to relist it.
I can very much verify from the specs that it's a P-MVA (worst it could be would be a Samsung PVA but I doubt that). At that price it's very likely an AUO. And AUO is notorious for having very few dead pixels, so with the price and the guarantee, it all adds up.
Looks like the panel may actually be an A-MVA.
The bigger ones have issues with input lag, and that's a no-no when it comes to seriously hardcore gaming. But, 90% or even 95% of the population will do just fine with the bigger LCDs listed under the "multimedia" section for gaming. I recommend the Acer AL2216WBD or BenQ FP241W, you might want to check on adjustability but I think the BenQ is great in this aspect.
Screen door effect SUCKS. I just got back from my parent's place and their Viewsonic with P-MVA panel looks 10x better than my S-IPS panel. The screen door effect on my HP LP2065 is super noticeable now. Color depth, bright/vivid picture, and no screen door effect are all better on the Viewsonic IMO. It costs 100 less but it's also 19" 1280 x 1024.
I thought S-IPS panels were supposed to rock? What's up with the screen door effect? Any way to fix it?
I thought S-IPS panels were supposed to rock? What's up with the screen door effect? Any way to fix it?
I really doubt you're accurately assessing that. SDE is probably less on the ViewSonic but there's no way the picture's better. I can tell you first-hand because I've used the exact same ViewSonic (VP930b) and a Dell 2007FP (the same panel as the LP2065).
Sure it may appear more vibrant on first glance, but the depth is nowhere near the same and dark detail probably greatly suffers.
Sorry to hear about the SDE though. Why don't you wait for one of the newer A-MVA panels to come out? (ViewEra may already have one out) They may be closer to S-IPS panels in picture quality. I agree SDE is worse on my NEC 20WMGX2 than my ViewSonic VP930b, though it isn't personally that bothersome to me.
dennilfloss
Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
Hey, xtknight
What's your opinion of the Samsung 214T? I am almost sold on this model.
What's your opinion of the Samsung 214T? I am almost sold on this model.
0x0BADF00D
Junior Member
I haven't managed to, no. I would have thought that you cannot see dithering on solid color images that are not moving.
I've just tried the Mini's DVI output via a VGA adaptor. Same thing. Looks like it's on the monitor end. BTW, when I was fiddling with the cabling at the back of the monitor, I heard a high-pitched buzz around the power-supply area. It's not noticeable unless you stick your head right next to it. I wonder if there is some analog intereference from the power suplly to the VGA cable.
Yeah, I've been using sub-pixel smoothing with full hinting on Linux. Bitstream Vera Sans Mono - nothing comes close. The OS X font rendering sucks, to put it mildly. It's great when you scale up the fonts (I guess desktop publishers love it), but at normal and small sizes it looks like "a pen running out of ink" to use someone else's words. Why they think we need white lines running through fonts that small is beyond me.
thecompguru
Junior Member
xtknight,
Ive been reading up, and ive got to ask, cuz ive seen none of these lcds. Ive noticed in the past from monitors like dells 24inch, the quality not being uniform, bad text display mainly fixed spots on the screen where it appears blurrier. Also horizontal or vertical bands about 2 inches in width that have a distorted color effect.
Im looking for a screen in the 20-22 inch wide-screen range. Im opting for 2 monitors actually, id like to buy the best bang for the buck. 1 monitor for reference material and reading, and the other as my primary display. Id like to save as much money as possible while not sacrificing uniformity in screen quality, or clarity. Above all it cant be blurry appearing which i notice on the majority of lcds i run across(and yes in native res). Im TRYING to spend 500ish(600 is probably more realistic though) combined. I spend at least 16hours a day useing it. I do daytradeing (lots of graphs and text), reading ebooks, reviews and such, programming, gameing, movies, and 3d modeling and texturing... so i do it all. Mainly my time is spent reading or similar, so crisp is most important as id go insane looking at color banding or blurry splotches that dont go away.
SCEPTRE X20WG-Naga is 214
Acer AL2016W 233
BenQ FP202W 284
LG L204WT
and a few others im sure im forgetting but i just dont wana buy something that ends up driving me crazy from looking at all day. Current crts ive owned tend to hurt my eyes and headaches even at 85hz over time, hence my desire to transition finally.
I love newegg and if i could id prefer to buy from there but whatever, and i saw u mention of someone having a dead pixel guarantee? Would like to avoid that as well or at least increase my odds if possible. As far as im aware most places only exchange if its 8ish or better. (which on a side note, seems kinda silly since u can return a defective one... and in my experience, its not super hard to break things.... *shrugs*)
Thanks in advance.
Ive been reading up, and ive got to ask, cuz ive seen none of these lcds. Ive noticed in the past from monitors like dells 24inch, the quality not being uniform, bad text display mainly fixed spots on the screen where it appears blurrier. Also horizontal or vertical bands about 2 inches in width that have a distorted color effect.
Im looking for a screen in the 20-22 inch wide-screen range. Im opting for 2 monitors actually, id like to buy the best bang for the buck. 1 monitor for reference material and reading, and the other as my primary display. Id like to save as much money as possible while not sacrificing uniformity in screen quality, or clarity. Above all it cant be blurry appearing which i notice on the majority of lcds i run across(and yes in native res). Im TRYING to spend 500ish(600 is probably more realistic though) combined. I spend at least 16hours a day useing it. I do daytradeing (lots of graphs and text), reading ebooks, reviews and such, programming, gameing, movies, and 3d modeling and texturing... so i do it all. Mainly my time is spent reading or similar, so crisp is most important as id go insane looking at color banding or blurry splotches that dont go away.
SCEPTRE X20WG-Naga is 214
Acer AL2016W 233
BenQ FP202W 284
LG L204WT
and a few others im sure im forgetting but i just dont wana buy something that ends up driving me crazy from looking at all day. Current crts ive owned tend to hurt my eyes and headaches even at 85hz over time, hence my desire to transition finally.
I love newegg and if i could id prefer to buy from there but whatever, and i saw u mention of someone having a dead pixel guarantee? Would like to avoid that as well or at least increase my odds if possible. As far as im aware most places only exchange if its 8ish or better. (which on a side note, seems kinda silly since u can return a defective one... and in my experience, its not super hard to break things.... *shrugs*)
Thanks in advance.
I think I've seen images depicting what you're describing. Sort of like kinks in the panel...
Blurry on most LCDs? You're just speaking of Dell's series, right? Are you running them in DVI?
Well one of the lower brightness TNs like the Acer AL2216WBD sounds great for reading. For modeling/color work I'd have to suggest the LG L204WT. I don't know if that'll come under $600 though.
Do you want two of the same LCDs (and are you certain you would rather opt for two fair LCDs over one high-quality one?) I just can't see a dual monitor setup working for me, but that's just me. I would suggest the BenQ FP241W if you wanted one big high-quality screen, though it is pricey, it is much higher quality than the Dell 24.
You don't see 'zero dead pixel' guarantees very often (and who knows, maybe there's some catch). I've never gotten a dead pixel on any new LCD (though some have cropped up on my old Samsung 17"). I don't think it's much of an issue these days. If you do get one you'll just have to deal with it (which usually isn't too hard). Sometimes there is just one dead subpixel that only shows up on certain tones.
Actually, the ViewEra 20.1" doesn't sound bad at all. It has a no-dead-pixel guarantee for 6 months (great actually since nowadays dead pixels don't appear nearly as often AFTER lots of usage). Plus it looks like it has a P-MVA or A-MVA panel with 8-bit colors. Grab the ViewEra, see if you like it and if so grab another. That'll be under $600 total.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824138061
Haven't seen a single review on it (other than the Newegg one), though honestly the review situation is grim these days and everyone likes something different anyway. The best way is to just give it a test run, I have little doubt in my mind that it will be a great display (color quality should unquestionably surpass that of the TN displays).
Well you can't return it if you damaged it. You can only return it if they damaged it.
thecompguru
Junior Member
I take it from your response that most lcds dont apear blurry. Yes they were analog so i guess that could be a factor as well. In store i recall seeing several that were way too blury for me, almost as if they werent in their native resolution, but for only 80% of the screen or so. 24inch dell was in spots, mainly discolloration in areas, a 17" samsung 740n, blurry all the time(on a crap setup, could be video signal output, havent tested) and off the top of my head, a lower end wide panel 20-22inch samsung in store was blury ove most of the screen as well. Ive seen good crisp screens, i dont know about color reproduction but looked crip, ie apples 30 inch looked crisp from what i remember. I just dont have a lot of 'hands' on experience with a good scope of lcds. Just lots that appear blurry.
2 lcds because Id get more realestate room that way. I do a lot where i need to refrence from one resource to another and having to constantly search for what i just had to minimize is troublesome with as many windows as i run. Used to feel the same way about the one big monitor, but if i want to read an ebook about programming or a refrence doc on my left and say program on my right its much quicker this way. I love to game but reality is it doesnt add up to much time spent comparied to the rest. But it sounds like ur saying most of the lcds should be clear enough, ig uess i saw a few bad ones or somthen?
Dead pixle thing was more of a convinence thing, but definitly dont wana favor one monitor over another for it probably. 2 differnt lcds could work, wouldnt look as nice but i recognize that maybe a gameing one as primary and a color/clearity/text one for the other. And the 2 you sudgested Acer AL2216WBD and LG L204WT are a 20" and 22", granted the same resolution, but seems like putting them side by side might be kinda confuseing in transition.
I guess my main question here is, whats the difference btwn the Acer AL2216WBD and the LG L204WT
they seem pretty close to me, differnt display types i think? but the big thing i can see is the pixel pitch is tighter on the LG since its smaller, which id perfer since im so used to crts. other than that though? acer isnt as bright i take it, and perhapes a little better for games(if so i can sacrafice some speed for quality i suspect)? both seem about the same price, lg being 20 or so more. Just looking for a bit more of a comparison i guess, leaning toward LG esp since i could just pick it up in store i assume.
2 lcds because Id get more realestate room that way. I do a lot where i need to refrence from one resource to another and having to constantly search for what i just had to minimize is troublesome with as many windows as i run. Used to feel the same way about the one big monitor, but if i want to read an ebook about programming or a refrence doc on my left and say program on my right its much quicker this way. I love to game but reality is it doesnt add up to much time spent comparied to the rest. But it sounds like ur saying most of the lcds should be clear enough, ig uess i saw a few bad ones or somthen?
Dead pixle thing was more of a convinence thing, but definitly dont wana favor one monitor over another for it probably. 2 differnt lcds could work, wouldnt look as nice but i recognize that maybe a gameing one as primary and a color/clearity/text one for the other. And the 2 you sudgested Acer AL2216WBD and LG L204WT are a 20" and 22", granted the same resolution, but seems like putting them side by side might be kinda confuseing in transition.
I guess my main question here is, whats the difference btwn the Acer AL2216WBD and the LG L204WT
they seem pretty close to me, differnt display types i think? but the big thing i can see is the pixel pitch is tighter on the LG since its smaller, which id perfer since im so used to crts. other than that though? acer isnt as bright i take it, and perhapes a little better for games(if so i can sacrafice some speed for quality i suspect)? both seem about the same price, lg being 20 or so more. Just looking for a bit more of a comparison i guess, leaning toward LG esp since i could just pick it up in store i assume.
Is there been any updates on the new Samsung 226BW? I don't know if there reviews of it now but it has nice specs along with the new LG 22". I see that the Samsung 226BW is on sale at CircuitCity.com but I went there yesterday and they had the 225BW and the LG L204WT.
What do you guys think of the new Samsung 226BW?
What do you guys think of the new Samsung 226BW?
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